Why is Wi-Fi limited and so poor?

[AdamWW]

Wait what? Does some TOC do this?

I usually can't get to either site with GWR on-train wifi.

I struggle to see how the DfT and railway industry could simultaneously argue that both HS2 is justified and that decent Wi-Fi on existing trains is unnecessary. Unless of course they assume radically different values of traveler's time, but that would mean the businesses cases were fantasy.

Or that it was always about increasing capacity not getting people where they're going more quickly?

While UK/EU zero or low cost roaming is still largely intact

I don't think it is, actually.

 

[Gaelan]

having thought about it a bit more - there's another factor to consider, international travellers to the UK. While UK/EU zero or low cost roaming is still largely intact, not all travellers have that luxury and free wifi at stations and on trains could be of immense help to them.

An extremely good point.

 

[AdamWW]

An extremely good point.

Indeed.

Especially as more things are moved on-line (e.g. assuming you can just look up timetables rather than having leaflets available).

 

[johncrossley]

I don't think it is, actually.

Many if not most EU networks still allow free roaming in the UK.

For example KPN in the Netherlands

Bel, sms en internet in de EU uit je bestaande bundel | KPN

Nooit meer onverwachte kosten binnen de EU? Met de buitenlandbundels van KPN Internet, bel en sms je voordelig uit je eigen bundel.

www.kpn.com

Verenigd Koninkrijk: dezelfde tarieven als in Nederland
Jij kunt gewoon blijven internetten, bellen en sms’en uit je huidige abonnement zoals je gewend bent. Je hoeft geen Extra Bundel aan te zetten.

Orange in France

En voyage : utilisez votre forfait Orange en zone Europe comme en France

De nombreuses destinations incluses dans votre forfait pour vos voyages en zone Europe. Information Brexit : vous pouvez toujours utiliser votre forfait au Royaume-Uni comme en France.

boutique.orange.fr

Brexit : vous pouvez toujours utiliser votre forfait au Royaume-Uni comme en France.

Vodafone in Germany

EU-Regulierung: Roaming-Gebühren bei Vodafone

Die Europäische Union reduziert die Roaming-Gebühren weiter in zwei Phasen. Alle wichtigen Infos zur EU-Regulierung und zu den Roaming-Gebühren bei Vodafone erhältst Du hier.

www.vodafone.de

In diesen Ländern gelten die regulierten Preise:

• Großbritannien (inklusive Gibraltar)

 

[sor]

I don't think it is, actually.

It largely is, though. From the UK perspective - O2 (+ Giffgaff and Virgin Mobile), 3 (+ Smarty), EE PAYG (and 1pmobile) all continue to offer no-cost EU roaming. EE Pay Monthly depends on when you took out the contract, though newer ones can still get roaming at no additional cost after paying £2 per day or £10/month (add/remove the roaming addon at any time).

Vodafone and Voxi are the largest omission (it remains in place on their more expensive plans), though if for whatever reason you must have Vodafone UK's network while at home, you could move to Lebara and get no cost EU roaming back.

I bought a Belgian SIM just for the hell of it last time I was out - the data allowance I had in BE was available in the UK too, and while there are no inclusive mins/texts these are charged at the same rate

 

[boiledbeans2]

I usually can't get to either site with GWR on-train wifi.

Same experience here. Posted about this in another thread:

Cross Country Voyager Wi-Fi

Hi all, Just a quick one, is Wi-Fi free in standard class on Cross Country voyagers? I know it used to be paid for access but that was a couple of years ago. Also, how reliable is it between Sheffield and Edinburgh? Thanks

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[AdamWW]

It largely is, though. From the UK perspective - O2 (+ Giffgaff and Virgin Mobile), 3 (+ Smarty), EE PAYG (and 1pmobile) all continue to offer no-cost EU roaming. EE Pay Monthly depends on when you took out the contract, though newer ones can still get roaming at no additional cost after paying £2 per day or £10/month (add/remove the roaming addon at any time).

Vodafone and Voxi are the largest omission (it remains in place on their more expensive plans), though if for whatever reason you must have Vodafone UK's network while at home, you could move to Lebara and get no cost EU roaming back.

I bought a Belgian SIM just for the hell of it last time I was out - the data allowance I had in BE was available in the UK too, and while there are no inclusive mins/texts these are charged at the same rate

Maybe not as bad as I thought then, though so far as I know it's ending soon or has already ended on EE PAYG.

I suppose £10/month isn't too unreasonable for pay monthy.

 

[sor]

Maybe not as bad as I thought then, though so far as I know it's ending soon or has already ended on EE PAYG.

I suppose £10/month isn't too unreasonable for pay monthy.

Apparently I'm out of date, £15 after the inflation-linked increases. Still comparable to buying an EU SIM, but without any of the faff.

(it's also better value than Vodafone's equivalent addon, which is £2.25 per day, or either £10 for 8 days or £15 for 15 days)

 

[Bletchleyite]

having thought about it a bit more - there's another factor to consider, international travellers to the UK. While UK/EU zero or low cost roaming is still largely intact, not all travellers have that luxury and free wifi at stations and on trains could be of immense help to them.

You can get a local esim for a pittance. Worth it just for Google Maps.

 

[sor]

You can get a local esim for a pittance. Worth it just for Google Maps.

UK eSIM availability is quite poor though, and if you're referring to the likes of Truphone and Gigsky, these are rather expensive compared to even a big 4 PAYG plan. I don't think those providers let you make phone calls, either. There's just so much more of a barrier than simply clicking connect. If I'd just got off a plane I can't say I'd want to be fussing around with getting a SIM right there and then.

(at least we do not do as some other countries do, and require photo ID even for PAYG)

 

[John R]

It largely is, though. From the UK perspective - O2 (+ Giffgaff and Virgin Mobile), 3 (+ Smarty), EE PAYG (and 1pmobile) all continue to offer no-cost EU roaming. EE Pay Monthly depends on when you took out the contract, though newer ones can still get roaming at no additional cost after paying £2 per day or £10/month (add/remove the roaming addon at any time).

Vodafone and Voxi are the largest omission (it remains in place on their more expensive plans), though if for whatever reason you must have Vodafone UK's network while at home, you could move to Lebara and get no cost EU roaming back.

I bought a Belgian SIM just for the hell of it last time I was out - the data allowance I had in BE was available in the UK too, and while there are no inclusive mins/texts these are charged at the same rate

If you still have free roaming with Three then from our family's experience it will be removed a couple of months after your current contract expires. Initially they tell you that you can keep with the current contract, but soon afterwards they give notice that you have to switch, and the new contracts all have a daily roaming charge of £2 (Europe), £5 (RoW).

 

[stuu]

I don't really care because it's generally rubbish, but how much can it really cost to provide? It must be absolutely trivial against a £10bn+ budget, so far down the list of expenses as to be virtually invisible. Sounds far more like a political decision rather than anything based on economics

 

[Retorus]

Because you can’t plug a train into a fibre optic cable and starlink isn’t at full strength yet.

The railway could build its own private wireless network to broadcast the signal from trackside to the train, but that would be expensive.

So instead on board Wi-Fi relies on mobile phone infrastructure.

Did you just not read the opening post? OP was talking about their great experience whilst on a train.

 

[jon0844]

Apparently I'm out of date, £15 after the inflation-linked increases. Still comparable to buying an EU SIM, but without any of the faff.

(it's also better value than Vodafone's equivalent addon, which is £2.25 per day, or either £10 for 8 days or £15 for 15 days)

Be careful in that the roaming add on is billed based on your billing cycle so if you cross into the new cycle when roaming you may pay more than you thought.

 

[hacman]

Always seems to be ran by Icomera who seem like they couldn't organise a merry event in a brewery. The amount of times I've tried to connect to an on-board hotspot only to find out the SSL certificate for the captive portal has expired...

Must be an Avanti thing. Usually the URL is .omboard.info or .on.icomera.com

There are two main players in the UK; Icomera and Nomad Digital (owned by Alstom). Overseas there are a few other players in the market too. The market in the UK is fairly evenly split between Icomera and Nomad Digital.

GNER did, with Icomera. I don't know if anyone else did.

The connection to the internet presumably came out in Sweden because you'd get served adverts in Swedish when using it.

El Reg suggests it may have been cellular based - https://www.theregister.com/2003/08/15/gner_to_spend_pound_1m/ although it says Icomera also used satellite connectivity (would have been hellishly expensive). Unclear what GNER was prepared to pay for, but:

As Icomera are based in Sweden (according to that article) that would explain why traffic was tunnelled there.

Indeed, though it may have been not tunneling as such but the connection to the internet from their satellite network being in Sweden.

Icomera don't operate their own satelites/satelite network. What you're seeing here is where the VPN tunnel between the train and the shore surfaces. Icomera tend to route everything through a datacentre in Sweden (or at least used to), whereas Nomad Digital tend to operate a shore-side endpoint in the local country. This is part of how the train WiFi can use multiple modems and providers and even different connection methods seamlessly.

Satelite is usually not chosen for a few reasons; it's expensive as hell, the equipment is comparatively massive and is less robust, bridges, overhead structures and trees upset it, and even with newer tech like OneWeb and Starlink the latency is still pretty bad.

Captive portals are often up to the train company. For example Avanti use Purple to supply it seperately.

Captive portals are usually visually designed by the train company and their partners, but the integration into the system and the functionality is almost entirely down to the WiFi solution supplier.

 

[Ashley Hill]

This report from the BBC news website suggests that on train WiFi could be cut to reduce costs. It goes onto say that customers are rather more concerned about value for money,reliability and punctuality rather that the provision of WiFi which most TOCs now offer as standard.
Train wi-fi at risk as part of cost-cutting move https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65673622

 

[AdamWW]

This report from the BBC news website suggests that on train WiFi could be cut to reduce costs. It goes onto say that customers are rather more concerned about value for money,reliability and punctuality rather that the provision of WiFi which most TOCs now offer as standard.

It does but that seems a bit disingenious. I'd argue that for most people those are pretty much given as priorities.

No doubt if asked passengers would also prioritise them above trains with clean exteriors and windows you can see through properly.

Perhaps the railway should be saving money by dispensing with train washers?

 

[nitten_travell]

Most business travellers will just tether to their phone.

I could be an outlier but I am not going to use mobile phone data paid for with my own money for work purposes.

I have a work laptop but not a work phone. On-board train wifi (and tables) means I can do some work while travelling, usually in Scotland or on LNER. I rarely have an issue with it. LNER wifi is fast enough that I can easily remote desktop to my office PC should I need to do that. Remove the wifi and I would lose the ability to work on the move. In Scotland at least coach travel is generally no slower, and sometimes quicker, than the train, Edinburgh-Glasgow aside. No room to open a laptop but if I can't connect to a network then there's not much point. This then makes intercity coach travel a much more appealing and not to say often cheaper option than train travel.
Train wifi gets a big thumbs up from me!

 

[WarrenTManager]

The amount of train borne systems that hang off the Wi-Fi now, I doubt the equipment would be ripped out immediately. Just saving the data costs that passengers consume.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could be an outlier but I am not going to use mobile phone data paid for with my own money for work purposes.

I have enough data that the piddling amount required for working is de-minimis. I use far more of it streaming stuff, particularly Spotify.

However, if you're a frequent business traveller then I'd see it as only right that you're provided a work phone or at least a SIM (I have a work SIM but not a separate phone).

 

[jon0844]

This report from the BBC news website suggests that on train WiFi could be cut to reduce costs. It goes onto say that customers are rather more concerned about value for money,reliability and punctuality rather that the provision of WiFi which most TOCs now offer as standard.
Train wi-fi at risk as part of cost-cutting move https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65673622

While I do use my own mobile data connection a lot of the time, for a laptop I do try and use the onboard Wi-Fi in preference to using my phone as a hotspot. Even if the speeds are usually lower, the connection can be more consistent.

As many networks will also not return from 3G to 4G/5G until you stop using data for a while, Three in particular, it's quite common to get stuck on 3G and have to toggle flight mode to get it back on 4G - which then interrupts the connection. Once 3G is turned off, that problem goes as 4G and 5G are both packet based and will swap and change seamlessly, but that hasn't happened just yet (so far only Vodafone in selected areas, with the whole UK done by the end of the year). When it does, Wi-Fi might be a little less essential, but it does mean you need a smartphone you can use as a hotspot and enough data.

 

[Annetts key]

Or having Traksy and Realtimetrains blocked...

I usually can't get to either site with GWR on-train wifi.

Today I had no problems loading and viewing the OpenTrainsTimes site, RealTimeTrains site or the Traksy site while using wifi on a GWR service.

 

[AdamWW]

Today I had no problems loading and viewing the OpenTrainsTimes site, RealTimeTrains site or the Traksy site while using wifi on a GWR service.

Yes I've had that too.

But more often that not, neither site will load via GWR wifi while I don't have trouble with other web sites.

 

[Annetts key]

Yes I've had that too.

But more often that not, neither site will load via GWR wifi while I don't have trouble with other web sites.

The on train wifi is most definitely more reliable and faster when the number of passengers is low. It also appears to depend on which type of train you are on.

 

[Deepgreen]

The DfT really hate the railways don't they!
This won't entice people on to the railways, it will do the opposite.
Just hope this shower of a government are turfed out next year!

Quite - it's a major scandal in my view and the decline of standards and quality in so many vital areas of the railway lies squarely at the door of privatisation, with the Tories simply wanting to hive off blame for failure to the operators (unsuccessfully).

 

[Kite159]

A prediction regarding WiFi with the stories of it being cut to reduce costs. I reckon the Intercity operators will go back 10 or so years and have WiFi available if you are willing to pay to access it in standard class (free in First Class). Will cease to exist on commuter trains.

Any way to make a bit more money.

 

[CardiffKid]

Any idea how much it costs a TOC (let’s say GWR) to a) maintain/run its wifi provision on its class of 800 and b) how much it would cost to replace/fit out on a set of trains.

 

[AdamWW]

Have I misremembered or is it not so long ago that free wifi provision was a DfT requirement when bidding for franchises?

 

[gabrielhj07]

If we’re going to get rid of Wi-Fi on trains, then they should just not announce it. Hardly anyone will notice and it saves the hassle of a few people who’ve never used it before complaining about a massive loss.

 

[Dai Corner]

Have I misremembered or is it not so long ago that free wifi provision was a DfT requirement when bidding for franchises?

I seem to remember David Cameron announcing it when he was Prime Minister, so between 2010 and 2016.