Why isn't the Elizabeth Line Core Driverless? (Ditto HS2)

[Fincra5]

But the principle is the same for other, heavy rail, systems elsewhere in the world.

And as far as the risks and their controls are concerned, there’s no difference between ‘heavy rail’ and a fixed metro system.

Well depends on your view of it.

Certain lines in Paris are completely staffless but have platform edge doors (etc) in a closed Metro System. Heavy Rail, outside a close metro system has a lot of variables.


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Why? Even the PTI could be done by someone else if it can’t be automatic, arguably more safely.

Who would do that?

 

[Bald Rick]

Well depends on your view of it.

Certain lines in Paris are completely staffless but have platform edge doors (etc) in a closed Metro System. Heavy Rail, outside a close metro system has a lot of variables.

And countless lines in China, Singapore, and other cities aroudn the workd (including Sydney, Barcelona, etc

My view on it is that it is definitely possible, because it is done.

 

[Fincra5]

And countless lines in China, Singapore, and other cities aroudn the workd (including Sydney, Barcelona, etc

My view on it is that it is definitely possible, because it is done.

Indeed... and reading with regards to GoA3 and GoA4, there seems to be a common "Metro" them amongst them.

And whilst the actual "Core" sections of XR are Metro style, the National Rail side isn't. So it comes back to, yes you could potentially run XR Driverless in the middle but to what benefit?

 

[Horizon22]

It's a through railway - there are no longer (excepting a select few peak trains and even then they run to/from depots on "conventional" track) services that run Paddington - Abbey Wood only. You still need the squishy human West of Paddington / East of Stratford.

Drivers are still required to open/close doors for dispatch in that section anyway, even if the trains can run in ATO. We haven't reached those GoA levels yet.

 

[renegademaster]

Well depends on your view of it.

Certain lines in Paris are completely staffless but have platform edge doors (etc) in a closed Metro System. Heavy Rail, outside a close metro system has a lot of variables.


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Who would do that?

Platform staff like already done at 100s of stations

 

[Fincra5]

Platform staff like already done at 100s of stations

Who have since been removed due to the DOO operation in a lot of places...
If you're going to look at additional staff to dispatch a driverless train, you'd not really be improving on having a Driver in the cab!

 

[Meerkat]

Yes! I think some people are forgetting the utter chaos that occurred when the Thameslink May 2018 timetable was introduced. Because hardly any drivers knew the full routes from Peterborough to Horsham, or Cambridge to Brighton, there were changeovers at Finsbury Park.
Cue trains stood blocking the southbound platform waiting for a late running northbound train which had the driver for the southbound train on it - and vice-versa.

Why introduce a performance risk of a crew change mid journey, when you can keep your current performance secure arrangement of having a driver stay with the train for the whole journey - which is how all Elizabeth Line driver duties are planned.



Glasgow Subway will have waist height Platform Edge Doors at all platforms.

Do platform edge doors tick the box so that no human intervention is needed?

Who have since been removed due to the DOO operation in a lot of places...
If you're going to look at additional staff to dispatch a driverless train, you'd not really be improving on having a Driver in the cab!

There are platform staff in the core arent there? Or it could be a control room monitoring cameras, bit like level crossings.
If more platform/control staff enabled removing drivers it would be a gimme - cheaper, easier.

 

[Technologist]

I would have though that the solution to this "issue" would be for the drivers to be located in a central command center where they can control the train by telepresence. The fact that Starlink exists should mean that not spots in anything other than a tunnel are a thing of the past and obviously tunnels are quite easy to put local solutions into. Limited automation in the cab could also deal with the odd outage in connection.

 

[Fincra5]

Do platform edge doors tick the box so that no human intervention is needed?


There are platform staff in the core arent there? Or it could be a control room monitoring cameras, bit like level crossings.
If more platform/control staff enabled removing drivers it would be a gimme - cheaper, easier.

There are staff aye, mainly for customer assistance and the regulations at certain stations. But then how do you link to a Train to tell it to "Go" without lots of money and modifications to enable it?

Same if you had a control room monitoring it. You'd need a Pair of eyes on CCTV for a train every couple of minutes. They would also need to be duplicated, to allow breaks from screen time etc etc... Still failing to see any benefit to either XR or TL with regards to being Driverless in the Core(s).

 

[edwin_m]

I would have though that the solution to this "issue" would be for the drivers to be located in a central command center where they can control the train by telepresence. The fact that Starlink exists should mean that not spots in anything other than a tunnel are a thing of the past and obviously tunnels are quite easy to put local solutions into. Limited automation in the cab could also deal with the odd outage in connection.

Not sure how satellite internet works in a tunnel?

Having a driver on board is helpful in managing a wide range of incidents including those where communication might be lost. Having them in a cab rather than roving through the train means they can access things like on-board CCTV, communications options, and an exterior door that passengers can't fall out of. Obviously the many automated metros overcome this with extra automation and system redundancy, but there's a cost involved. I don't believe any passenger carrying railway that isn't a metro operates without on-board staff.

 

[Bigbru]

Why introduce a performance risk of a crew change mid journey, when you can keep your current performance secure arrangement of having a driver stay with the train for the whole journey - which is how all Elizabeth Line driver duties are planned.

The Elizabeth Line already has diagrammed driver changeovers at Maidenhead, Paddington Low Level and Gidea Park

 

[Meerkat]

There are staff aye, mainly for customer assistance and the regulations at certain stations. But then how do you link to a Train to tell it to "Go" without lots of money and modifications to enable it?

Same if you had a control room monitoring it. You'd need a Pair of eyes on CCTV for a train every couple of minutes. They would also need to be duplicated, to allow breaks from screen time etc etc... Still failing to see any benefit to either XR or TL with regards to being Driverless in the Core(s).

A RTS button that signalling can see isn’t new is it?
Cheaper than drivers, can start work the moment they arrive, no route training, better safer worker environment, as they are watching the platform their job overlaps with existing jobs so fewer people needed overall.