Why No Anytime Returns on this route?

[northernrail2009]

I am trying to book a Ticket between Alsager and Stoke on Trent(yes I know its only a 12 min trip) going out on Friday and back on Saturday but it wont give me fares for a Return Ticket only single fares but i can get a Anytime day Return if i was coming back on the same day so why does this happen?

It seems like they dont like people going out 1 day and coming back the next day or up to a month after or is it because its a short route?

 

[gordonthemoron]

it's too short to do anytime returns

 

[mumrar]

is it because its a short route?

That is the correct reason you can't get an open return, there's little or no demand for it. Different TOCs have different criteria for this, but generally a trip that covers less than 50 miles in one direction will not have a peak open ticket (some do have off peak though)

 

[A60K]

That is the correct reason you can't get an open return, there's little or no demand for it.

That's not the reason - the actual reason is to prevent people using ungripped return halves day after day on a fairly short journey.

 

[route:oxford]

I am trying to book a Ticket between Alsager and Stoke on Trent(yes I know its only a 12 min trip) going out on Friday and back on Saturday but it wont give me fares for a Return Ticket only single fares but i can get a Anytime day Return if i was coming back on the same day so why does this happen?

It seems like they dont like people going out 1 day and coming back the next day or up to a month after or is it because its a short route?

It's a scam by the TOCs - nothing more, nothing less.

All too often it's possible to get a reasonable advanced purchase fare on a core inter-city service, however, It may then be necessary to buy 4 singles to make up the initial and final legs. Add up the total cost and suddenly you find it costs more than the "off-peak" ticket that offers flexibility on the core element.

 

[A60K]

It's a scam by the TOCs - nothing more, nothing less.

No it's not - it was introduced in BR days, to stop scams by unscrupulous passengers as I mentioned above.

 

[gordonthemoron]

No it's not - it was introduced in BR days, to stop scams by unscrupulous passengers as I mentioned above.

true enough

 

[route:oxford]

true enough

Times change. TOCs have clear SLAGs for checking tickets and have a far higher percentage of barriers.

Unless I'm very mistaken a Single wasn't a few pence short of a return in the 70s & 80s either.

 

[Failed Unit]

No it's not - it was introduced in BR days, to stop scams by unscrupulous passengers as I mentioned above.

Considering they would need a single to get from A-B to use the ungripped return that was hardly going to lose them much revenue. Most singles on regional routes are only 10p less than the return!

 

[A60K]

Considering they would need a single to get from A-B to use the ungripped return that was hardly going to lose them much revenue. Most singles on regional routes are only 10p less than the return!

You've not understood the scam - you pass the honesty test! The way it works is you buy one Open Return from A-B, then on the way back you buy another Open Return from B-A - each valid for a month. The pair of tickets, if you're lucky avoiding grippers, might have got you anywhere between 5-15 days travel for the price of 2 on a route such as Dewsbury to York, for example.

The removal of Period Returns on short routes took place during the 1980s if I remember correctly, and the stopping of this type of passenger fraud was the reason.

 

[route:oxford]

You've not understood the scam - you pass the honesty test! The way it works is you buy one Open Return from A-B, then on the way back you buy another Open Return from B-A - each valid for a month. The pair of tickets, if you're lucky avoiding grippers, might have got you anywhere between 5-15 days travel for the price of 2 on a route such as Dewsbury to York, for example.

The removal of Period Returns on short routes took place during the 1980s if I remember correctly, and the stopping of this type of passenger fraud was the reason.

So essentially where either the originating or destination station has barriers, there is no reason why a short distance open-return should not be available.

 

[A60K]

So essentially where either the originating or destination station has barriers, there is no reason why a short distance open-return should not be available.

In principle, yes, but you would open another can or two of worms.

For example, if you were commuting Dewsbury to Leeds then you would just buy tickets to/from Cross Gates instead and 'break' your journey at Leeds.


If you only allowed journeys between pairs of barriered stations to have period returns then you would have a very limited subset of journeys possible.

And not having short-distance Period Returns is not something that's peculiar to this country, it's pretty much a standard across the rest of Europe.

 

[mathmo]

So essentially where either the originating or destination station has barriers, there is no reason why a short distance open-return should not be available.

Even in this case, sometimes barriers return tickets when they shouldn't, sometimes the staff on the manual gate don't take it off you, and sometimes the barriers are open anyway due to lack of staff/time of day - so this argument doesn't quite work.

In general, an Anytime Return (not Day) is approximately the same price as two Anytime Singles - e.g. Cambridge to London is one of the flows that has an Anytime Return (as well as an Anytime Day Return): an Anytime Day Single is £19.10, the Anytime Return £37.00 - just £1.20 cheaper than the two singles.

 

[Failed Unit]

You've not understood the scam - you pass the honesty test! The way it works is you buy one Open Return from A-B, then on the way back you buy another Open Return from B-A - each valid for a month. The pair of tickets, if you're lucky avoiding grippers, might have got you anywhere between 5-15 days travel for the price of 2 on a route such as Dewsbury to York, for example.

The removal of Period Returns on short routes took place during the 1980s if I remember correctly, and the stopping of this type of passenger fraud was the reason.

Strange, if that is the case what stopped people doing exactly the same thing on journeys like Grantham - London or Doncaster - Newcastle with either a Savers or open returns (if you get both ends ungripped) I know the barriers are coming along but surely if people did it with day returns commutors on these routes would have given it a try as well.

 

[A60K]

Strange, if that is the case what stopped people doing exactly the same thing on journeys like Grantham - London or Doncaster - Newcastle with either a Savers or open returns (if you get both ends ungripped) I know the barriers are coming along but surely if people did it with day returns commutors on these routes would have given it a try as well.

The longer the journey the more chance of a grip - typically the conductors will pass through around four or five times on a London - Edinburgh journey. Also, as journeys get longer, the chances of someone commuting daily and having an opportunity to reuse tickets decreases.

Having said that, I know of someone who used an Open Return twice between London and Sheffield in the space of a week a couple of years ago! Both down and up first journeys went unchecked on MML, and it was only on the second up journey that he was gripped - in these circumstances I can't really blame him for reusing the ticket, no way should that not have been gripped on the first journey in either direction.

 

[yorksrob]

I can sort of sympathise with the powers that be in trying to stop a scam. However - I regularly visit a friend in Howden from Leeds, which is about 25 miles away. The cheap day return is about £7.40 - which is reasonable enough - yet if I want to come back the next day (which is usually the case as we tend to go down the pub and the last train is quite early) the only option is two singles which come to £15.30 and seems expensive for the distance. Perhaps they should have a short term return which lasts a day or two.

 

[Failed Unit]

The longer the journey the more chance of a grip - typically the conductors will pass through around four or five times on a London - Edinburgh journey. Also, as journeys get longer, the chances of someone commuting daily and having an opportunity to reuse tickets decreases.

Having said that, I know of someone who used an Open Return twice between London and Sheffield in the space of a week a couple of years ago! Both down and up first journeys went unchecked on MML, and it was only on the second up journey that he was gripped - in these circumstances I can't really blame him for reusing the ticket, no way should that not have been gripped on the first journey in either direction.

Yep, I did London - Edinburgh return without been gripped recently which surprised me. Although this is not the kind of journey you will reuse you ticket on anyway. I also got from Haymarket - Preston on Virgin with no gaurd checking. When you get journeys like that you have little smypathy for the TOC's losing revenue for not checking tickets.

The solution is simple and check. Scotrail are doing on the flexi-passes, get the passenger to write on the date on the ticket before they board. If the date isn't on the ticket it isn't valid. It won't help if they don't check the tickets but it works in Europe where in some countries you must validate you ticket before you board! If you break your journey then you can put on break Newark for example and put the 2nd date on!

 

[yorkie]

I can sort of sympathise with the powers that be in trying to stop a scam. However - I regularly visit a friend in Howden from Leeds, which is about 25 miles away. The cheap day return is about £7.40 - which is reasonable enough - yet if I want to come back the next day (which is usually the case as we tend to go down the pub and the last train is quite early) the only option is two singles which come to £15.30 and seems expensive for the distance. Perhaps they should have a short term return which lasts a day or two.

Bramley-Howden is £7.50 CDR (same as Leeds), yet New Pudsey-Howden is a whopping £11.20 for a CDR for an extra 1.75 miles. However there is a SVR for this flow so you can do it for £13.10 (8A Valid on any train, return within 1 month)

A Leeds to Eastrington (3 miles beyond Howden) is just 40p more at £7.90 CDR, yet go 2 miles further to Gilberdyke and the fare jumps up to a ludicrous £13.40 CDR!

 

[MCR247]

That would only happenin the UK :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

Bramley-Howden is £7.50 CDR (same as Leeds), yet New Pudsey-Howden is a whopping £11.20 for a CDR for an extra 1.75 miles. However there is a SVR for this flow so you can do it for £13.10 (8A Valid on any train, return within 1 month)

A Leeds to Eastrington (3 miles beyond Howden) is just 40p more at £7.90 CDR, yet go 2 miles further to Gilberdyke and the fare jumps up to a ludicrous £13.40 CDR!

Cheers for the lowdown, I'll use that next time.