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Why so long to develop East - West Rail?

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DarloRich

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By reversing in platform 5. There is time in the diagrams to do this, but there is perhaps not capacity on the WCML for it. And it would be difficult at peak times, where platform 5 is used for starting/terminating trains, and 6 doesn't I believe have access to the WCML northbound.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It's quite bleak and grey, but I wouldn't call it grotty - it is clean and well maintained with functional PIS and a heated ticket office building open 24/7, and there are overall roofs on all but platform 6. Many people would be crying out for that kind of station, even if it could do with brightening up a bit.

it is horrible - the platforms are cold wind traps, the station is a 1960's dump, the wonderful platform roofs leak like a sieve, the bridge is freezing and lets almost all of the rain in, the station building is often cold thanks to the genius who put the few seats near the door openers and the toilets are often shut. AND p 3 has no shelter at all! (even Fenny has a shelter!)

I will admit the station is clean and tidy and looked after and the staff are pretty decent but it is such a dull place to spend time waiting for trains
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I never understood what possessed them to add lifts for all but one platform. It must have saved a tiny amount in comparison to the inconvenience it causes. Perhaps the long term view was of a move to 5, but now that is used by WCML starters/terminators at peak times.

Of course a number of those starters/terminators are extended Tring stoppers that serve Bletchley because the units/crew are based there, so if Tring stoppers go to Crossrail perhaps the need for the use of 5 may be reduced? Though I like the 0714, a most civilised train :)

that can be the only reason - we have been told many times that P6 will no longer be used by Marston Vale trains and we still use it. The times i clunked the kids buggies up and carried aged passengers luggage down those bloody stairs................

(and yes the 0714 is v civilised ( at least till Berko ;) )
 
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jimm

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the point is that real people WONT travel with a change of trains. it really puts them off. I know plenty of people in my office who are put off for that reason alone.

the connections are also quite poor north bound. Consider the 0814 arrival into Bletchley (which SHOULD) be ideal for arriving at work in MK 9 The largest centre in the area) for 0900. This train is timetabled to arrive at Bletchley at 0814 but is often late - 5 minutes late today for instance

We now have an official connection to the 0819 (which we did not have in the past - thanks to hard campaigning from passengers and the Community Rail group) to MK but we often miss that. The next train is 0844. Not a long wait in the grand scheme of things but more than enough to put people off as Bletchley is so grotty and P3 offers no shelter at all.

And the local authorities back the idea but don't want/cant to pay for it. ;)

People in Stourbridge somehow manage to stomach changing at Stourbridge Junction.

Like I said, you will have six or seven trains per hour between Milton Keynes and Bletchley once East West is running, so no one will be waiting 25 or 30 minutes, will they?

Plus there will be more frequent trains for those travelling between Milton Keynes/Bletchley, Woburn Sands, Ridgmont and Bedford thanks to the Oxford-Bedford trains.

And I expect Bletchley station might just get a bit of a makeover to reflect its new importance.
 

Pigeon

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I've always wondered how a train would go directly from the Vale line to MKC. In order to get the right turn from Bletchley depot it would require a steep incline and go over the top of a great big building. Or knock the building down. Or go under the bridge as the trains do now and have some kind of right turn down there. However, that would shorten a lot of sidings.

Or somehow build a railway that comes in from the north of MKC from Bedford and hit the Oxford stretch at Bletchley. Which seems the best option by far on paper, without cost constraints.

You and me both, but nobody else on here likes that idea :(

For second best I'd go for the east to north flyover option, with platforms on the flyover and an overhead walkway (?travolator) to the main station. With a branch off it to the nearest point on Sherwood Road, because it'd be rude not to. Tricky, certainly, but also entirely possible, as long as it is approached with the idea of doing it rather than finding as many reasons as possible not to, which unfortunately is highly unlikely to be the case.

Certainly the delay is ridiculous. 20+ years to not get started on rebuilding an existing railway beyond re-clearing vegetation that had grown back since the last time they did it and never followed up, when the original line only took 5 years to build, Act to opening, from scratch, using shovels.

I think HowardGWR is right about make-work for planners. It'd save a lot of hassle just to give them the money for doing nothing. And mission creep on top of planning bloat, as well - I'm jolly sure electrification was never part of the original suggestion because nobody was whining about this anthropogenic climate change nonsense back then, and introducing a major change like that half way through is never going to speed anything up.
 

richieb1971

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You and me both, but nobody else on here likes that idea :(

For second best I'd go for the east to north flyover option, with platforms on the flyover and an overhead walkway (?travolator) to the main station. With a branch off it to the nearest point on Sherwood Road, because it'd be rude not to. Tricky, certainly, but also entirely possible, as long as it is approached with the idea of doing it rather than finding as many reasons as possible not to, which unfortunately is highly unlikely to be the case.

Certainly the delay is ridiculous. 20+ years to not get started on rebuilding an existing railway beyond re-clearing vegetation that had grown back since the last time they did it and never followed up, when the original line only took 5 years to build, Act to opening, from scratch, using shovels.

I think HowardGWR is right about make-work for planners. It'd save a lot of hassle just to give them the money for doing nothing. And mission creep on top of planning bloat, as well - I'm jolly sure electrification was never part of the original suggestion because nobody was whining about this anthropogenic climate change nonsense back then, and introducing a major change like that half way through is never going to speed anything up.

Yep, you and me are on the same page. But the way things are done are supported on these forums and there isn't any other way. Even if 10,000 volunteers under NR guidance came along and track machines and what not, it would never get the green light. It has to be done the long way, or not at all. And like you say, it is just re-instating a railway that already was with a faster line speed. Its really a disgrace to this countries "get up and go" attitude compared to other countries. By the time this line is built America would probably have linked San Francisco to Las Vegas.
 
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richieb1971

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If it includes the fly over track no. Simply because the trains of the day using it were running in the 1960's and after that freight.
 

The Planner

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So the new line isnt slower than the old one then or are we talking semantics like the flyover?
 

67018

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Certainly the delay is ridiculous. 20+ years to not get started on rebuilding an existing railway beyond re-clearing vegetation that had grown back since the last time they did it and never followed up, when the original line only took 5 years to build, Act to opening, from scratch, using shovels.

I think HowardGWR is right about make-work for planners. It'd save a lot of hassle just to give them the money for doing nothing. And mission creep on top of planning bloat, as well - I'm jolly sure electrification was never part of the original suggestion because nobody was whining about this anthropogenic climate change nonsense back then, and introducing a major change like that half way through is never going to speed anything up.

Where does '20+ years' come from? The scheme was no more than a proposal until the government decided to fund it a few years ago. And this isn't about rebuilding the old railway, it's about building a new, electrified, faster railway that's fit for purpose for the 21st century.

And on the one hand you moan about electrification being added, but on the other you want an addition of an east to north link at Bletchley. Do you want scope creep or not?

Your comments about climate change aren't really worth discussing on this forum, but that's not the justification for electrification anyway.

Yep, you and me are on the same page. But the way things are done are supported on these forums and there isn't any other way. Even if 10,000 volunteers under NR guidance came along and track machines and what not, it would never get the green light. It has to be done the long way, or not at all. And like you say, it is just re-instating a railway that already was with a faster line speed. Its really a disgrace to this countries "get up and go" attitude compared to other countries. By the time this line is built America would probably have linked San Francisco to Las Vegas.

The reason the consensus on this forum is the way it is is because some of the posters know what they are talking about, and/or have read the hundreds of pages of analysis that has already been done on a huge range of options. It's not a 'disgrace' that this work happens to have come to a conclusion that you don't like.

America is, of course so much better at this sort of thing http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/07/us/delays-persist-for-us-high-speed-rail.html?_r=0

New York Times said:
WASHINGTON — High-speed rail was supposed to be President Obama’s signature transportation project, but despite the administration spending nearly $11 billion since 2009 to develop faster passenger trains, the projects have gone mostly nowhere and the United States still lags far behind Europe and China.
 

richieb1971

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The new line they are building is 100mph which is faster than the old mothballed version of the track. I doubt the old track had line speeds above 60mph. However, much of the line is straight and that is the most important aspect of what keeps a line speed high. If they were re-routing the alignment to take out bends and corners and junctions I would have to say that the time line is justified. But just taking out trees, laying ballast over what was already a railway should take weeks.

I only used the "flyover" part of my previous statement to make sure your talking the same bit of track. The Flyover wasn't there for much of the old railways history. I believe the tracks crossed the WCML during the earlier years (I might be wrong but I am sure the old railway used the current platforms).

Lets not forget there will be no doubt lots of the line where line speeds are well below 100mph. Around Bedford its going to be 20mph+, Bletchley will be 40mph+. I don't know much about Oxford area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I said probably. Just saying.
 

swt_passenger

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The new line they are building is 100mph which is faster than the old mothballed version of the track. I doubt the old track had line speeds above 60mph...

The 12 mile mothballed section is shown with a 30 mph line speed in the (public) online sectional appendix, so presumably that was the ruling speed when last in use.
 

Class 170101

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Bedford to Milton Keynes direct services have been consistently ruled out, especially by the EWR group.

Rumours have been around ever since the bay platform at MKC was built - and they seem to be repeated every few months in these forums, but never die down despite various denials.

I thought the Bay Platform (2A) at Milton Keynes was built specifically for the Bedford to Bletchley service to be extended to Milton Keynes - hence the short (four car) length.
 

swt_passenger

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I thought the Bay Platform (2A) at Milton Keynes was built specifically for the Bedford to Bletchley service to be extended to Milton Keynes - hence the short (four car) length.

The Planner has explained in the past that it was definitely not put in for Bedford services, and it was originally referred to as the Reading Bay...
 

route:oxford

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I don't know much about Oxford area.

There's been a massive campaign in North Oxford to keep the line speeds down to a minimum.

Lives ruined, destroy tranquility of nearby meadow, elderly people having problems pushing wheelbarrows over an existing adjacent bridge instead of over an unmanned crossing and houses falling down - that kind of thing.

For the Chiltern Link, an equestrian centre owner paid for consultants to report that 2 rider deaths can be expected every year due to 100mph trains near his stables.

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/yo...65.Stables_fears_impact_of_high_speed_trains/
 

richieb1971

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MKC is just a headache for the whole EWR thing. It stands out on its own out of the way and wants to be the centre of all the attention.

I did propose a Northampton/Wolverton loop as part of the EWR but they are only interested in shortening the length of time by rail it takes to get from Oxford to Cambridge. There is no reason why that can't be achieved alongside the current model at some point in the future. My ideal would be a Bedford, MKC, Northampton, Bedford loop which coincides with the current plan. Which could create a circular service attracting many passengers for the Vale line.

Bedford Midland will not serve the eventual completed line, I am sure of that. There has been zero obligation to get Bedford Midland on the line thus far and I don't see it changing. There will be a station built called Bedford Central or Bedford South.

Still we are lucky to get what we are getting.. and I am happy for that.
 

Class 170101

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aylesbury

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Just starting are the presentations to the public Weds 23 rd in Aylesbury at Rivets Club Lower Stoke Rd 12.oo 6.00pm.Maps staff to talk to and the answers to any questions ,they then have more lined up along the route ,find out where on Network Rails site under projects.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Well, we can forget about Wiki.

Sometimes I wonder if random people just make it up as they go along...

The full Wikipedia article is actually correct, but Class 170101 has selectively quoted what Wikipedia says.

In the section below, it goes on to clearly explain what the platform will be used for, and if Class 170101 had read this thoroughly, he wouldn't be quoting Wikipedia to various experts and interested parties.

It says
Wikipedia said:
Platform 2A is a five-car south-facing bay platform originally intended for the extension of Marston Vale Line services into Milton Keynes Central. This proposal no longer appears in plans for the East West Rail Link, being replaced by a planned service to/from Oxford. Meanwhile, platform 2A is used only by exception when additional platform capacity is needed, such as when there is a service delay. The platform will also be used for services to Oxford and Aylesbury from 2019 (see 'Future Services' below).
 

Pigeon

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So the new line isnt slower than the old one then or are we talking semantics like the flyover?

Insert ", just" immediately before "with a faster line speed" ;)

Where does '20+ years' come from?

East West Rail Consortium established 1995, idea itself around pretty much since it closed in the first place.

The scheme was no more than a proposal until the government decided to fund it a few years ago.

Yes, the gap between 1995 and "a few years ago" is part of what I'm complaining about.

And this isn't about rebuilding the old railway, it's about building a new, electrified, faster railway that's fit for purpose for the 21st century.

It is difficult to respect posts which consist entirely of a string of marketing buzzwords.

Rebuilding the old railway is exactly what it is about. The formation already exists, is in railway ownership, and is nice and straight. The proposal does not suggest abandoning it and building a new line. The proposal is instead about installing new ballast, track, signalling etc. on a line which already exists. This is not difficult. It is, indeed, easier than doing the same thing on a line which is currently in use.

And on the one hand you moan about electrification being added, but on the other you want an addition of an east to north link at Bletchley. Do you want scope creep or not?

The two are not of the same nature. If electrification is to be done then it more or less has to be done as part of the reinstatement in order to avoid massive disruption doing it later when the line is back in service. A new piece of route is a different matter. That can be built as a separate item with significant disruption only at the point when it comes to be connected to the existing route.

Of course, the real root of the problem is 1960s planning failure: Milton Keynes was built five miles too far to the north in the first place...

Your comments about climate change aren't really worth discussing on this forum, but that's not the justification for electrification anyway.

Anthropogenic climate change is politically inspired nonsense, comparable to Lysenkoism. The IPCC have even admitted that the aims are political. As it happens, I pretty much agree with the political aims. But I also think they should be implemented on their own merits, and certainly not by trying to induce panic with a made-up disaster prophecy masquerading as science. That both discredits science and opens up a bunch of holes through which commercial interests can drop spanners into the works of the political objectives.

Network Rail's own website cites reduced CO2 emissions as a "benefit" of electrification.

The reason the consensus on this forum is the way it is is because some of the posters know what they are talking about, and/or have read the hundreds of pages of analysis that has already been done on a huge range of options. It's not a 'disgrace' that this work happens to have come to a conclusion that you don't like.

The reason the consensus on this forum is the way it is is because an apparent majority of the posters think that the way things happen to be done at present is an immutable constant established by divine writ, and react to any suggestion of doing things differently in the same way as a religious fundamentalist reacts to a heretic. The "disgrace" is that it takes 20 years of waffle to answer what boils down to a simple question of "do we or do we not reinstate usable track on this piece of formation which we already own", and that people do not merely fail to question a system which spends 20 years wasting time and money but actually defend it.
 

richieb1971

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Wow, what a post. It was like I was educated in poetic justice.

The fact remains, if the will was there.. we would definitely be able to run trains by now. Remember the old adage that says you should pay your smaller debt credit cards off first? Well in that respect the EWR is small change compared to the other projects NR are running. Opening EWR could potentially lighten the loads on the WCML which HS2 is supposed to do.

EWR would also be a political success for the conservatives. But instead of finished projects we have several half baked ones.
 

67018

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East West Rail Consortium established 1995, idea itself around pretty much since it closed in the first place.

Yes, the gap between 1995 and "a few years ago" is part of what I'm complaining about.

I think part of the difficulty in understanding what you are on about is that there are actually several different issues you are raising: the lack of appetite for developing the rail network in toe 70s and 80s; the fact that EWR wasn't prioritised after 1995, and the time lag between when it was (2011) and projected opening (2019). They are all quite distinct and complex issues.

Should EWR in 1995 have been prioritised above (inter alia) Thameslink, Crossrail, Chiltern Evergreen (remember that 20 years ago the Chiltern Mainline was still single track from Princes Risborough to Aynho), WCRM? It's actually done quite well in that it was generally seen as a long way down the list, and potentially decades away, until the 2011 announcement moved it up the queue.

It is difficult to respect posts which consist entirely of a string of marketing buzzwords.

Apologies, I was unaware that 'electrified' and 'faster' (i.e. higher linespeeds) were marketing buzzwords. The reference to the 21st century was meant to point out that the railway will be built to modern standards and requirements, not historic ones - as an example by closing or replacing the many level crossings. There are about 75 such crossings, all of which require a replacement to be designed and appropriate consultation held.

Just to illustrate the change, the Bicester-Oxford line was largely 30mph single track until the recent works, and the Oxfordshire Way footpath actually followed the line for a short distance. This is the sort of thing that needs to be dealt with, otherwise we just end up reinstating a museum piece.

...This is not difficult.
You are right, putting the track down probably won't be too difficult. But that's only a tiny percentage of the work needed for the whole project.

Of course, the real root of the problem is 1960s planning failure: Milton Keynes was built five miles too far to the north in the first place...
So they should have relocated the entire development to make it more convenient for interchange on a line that was about to be closed?

The reason the consensus on this forum is the way it is is because an apparent majority of the posters think that the way things happen to be done at present is an immutable constant established by divine writ, and react to any suggestion of doing things differently in the same way as a religious fundamentalist reacts to a heretic. The "disgrace" is that it takes 20 years of waffle to answer what boils down to a simple question of "do we or do we not reinstate usable track on this piece of formation which we already own", and that people do not merely fail to question a system which spends 20 years wasting time and money but actually defend it.

Well, to challenge the consensus you really need to come up with a viable alternative. So far, all I've heard is that this scheme should have been started 20 years ago, electrification should be abandoned and an east to north link added at Bletchley, and we could just get on with it using 10,000 volunteers and a track laying machine. No idea why Network Rail haven't given you a call already :roll:

As a potentially huge beneficiary of this line, nobody wants it to happen more than I do, but arguing for action now and complaining about 'how long it takes' is the sort of thing that gets politicians meddling in projects and increases the chances of delay (or outright failure).
 

jimm

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MKC is just a headache for the whole EWR thing. It stands out on its own out of the way and wants to be the centre of all the attention.

I did propose a Northampton/Wolverton loop as part of the EWR but they are only interested in shortening the length of time by rail it takes to get from Oxford to Cambridge.

What are you on about? Reconnecting Oxford and Cambridge by rail, with all the things that flow from that in terms of connecting up parts of the country without the need to go anywhere near London has always been the "centre of all the attention" of "the whole EWR thing". And Milton Keynes will benefit in all sorts of ways anyway. Bletchley is part of Milton Keynes in case you hadn't noticed and not everyone will actually want to go to Milton Keynes Central.

And how on earth services from Reading/Oxford and Aylesbury to Milton Keynes Central, or the prospect of XC services using MKC and East West as well are demonstrations of a lack of interest in other objectives than linking Oxford and Cambrdige beats me, but then so does your and Pigeon's ranting about the whole project, as though it should all just happen by magic.

This in the UK, where the entire political process, which ultimately determines where the money for such schemes - the most important bit of the whole process - comes from is dominated by short-term thinking, which is why it has taken so long for the scheme's local backers to get Whitehall to pay attention.

That's before you get down to all the practical stuff that needs to happen on the ground, which has been outlined in copious detail, even if you don't want to hear it, or understand why you can't just click your fingers and a railway appears.
 
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Chris125

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I'm jolly sure electrification was never part of the original suggestion because nobody was whining about this anthropogenic climate change nonsense back then, and introducing a major change like that half way through is never going to speed anything up.

The only person here 'whining' is you.
 
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The reason the consensus on this forum is the way it is is because an apparent majority of the posters think that the way things happen to be done at present is an immutable constant established by divine writ, and react to any suggestion of doing things differently in the same way as a religious fundamentalist reacts to a heretic. The "disgrace" is that it takes 20 years of waffle to answer what boils down to a simple question of "do we or do we not reinstate usable track on this piece of formation which we already own", and that people do not merely fail to question a system which spends 20 years wasting time and money but actually defend it.

1. The track between Bicester-Claydon-Aylesbury Vale Parkway and Aylesbury-Princes Risborough isn't reusable.
2. The ballast along these sections is also spent and mostly unusable.
3. The track between Claydon-Bletchley doesn't exist in places.
4. The overbridges are mostly foul of electrical gauge.

All of the above was largely leap-frogged by the previous Consortium who's proposal was a 'do minimum' to get a passenger train down the line. But the line wouldn't have been any good for faster services, more frequent services, inter-regional services or large volumes of freight services.

So, in summary, forget all that was done prior to Network Rail getting it's hands on the project last year, as that was a lightweight scheme without any funding.
 

67018

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1. The track between Bicester-Claydon-Aylesbury Vale Parkway and Aylesbury-Princes Risborough isn't reusable.
2. The ballast along these sections is also spent and mostly unusable.
3. The track between Claydon-Bletchley doesn't exist in places.
4. The overbridges are mostly foul of electrical gauge.

All of the above was largely leap-frogged by the previous Consortium who's proposal was a 'do minimum' to get a passenger train down the line. But the line wouldn't have been any good for faster services, more frequent services, inter-regional services or large volumes of freight services.

So, in summary, forget all that was done prior to Network Rail getting it's hands on the project last year, as that was a lightweight scheme without any funding.

Point of order! You have somehow manage to attribute a quote to me that's (a) not mine and (b) exactly the point I've been arguing against!
 

jimm

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1. The track between Bicester-Claydon-Aylesbury Vale Parkway and Aylesbury-Princes Risborough isn't reusable.
2. The ballast along these sections is also spent and mostly unusable.
3. The track between Claydon-Bletchley doesn't exist in places.
4. The overbridges are mostly foul of electrical gauge.

All of the above was largely leap-frogged by the previous Consortium who's proposal was a 'do minimum' to get a passenger train down the line. But the line wouldn't have been any good for faster services, more frequent services, inter-regional services or large volumes of freight services.

So, in summary, forget all that was done prior to Network Rail getting it's hands on the project last year, as that was a lightweight scheme without any funding.

Sorry, that's just not the case. The Grip 1,2,3 and 4 (this one was done as recently as, er, 2010...) studies for the Western Section were done long before Network Rail took over leadership of the scheme. Everyone involved was well aware of the scale of the challenges. Electrification wasn't even on the agenda until the Government finally took an interest - after telling the consortium for years that it was up to them to make a case and find lots of funding - in large part on the back of that Grip 4 study. Since which time the scope of the project has been steadily widened.
 
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Point of order! You have somehow manage to attribute a quote to me that's (a) not mine and (b) exactly the point I've been arguing against!

Humble apology sir - a clerical error on my part :oops:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, that's just not the case. The Grip 1,2,3 and 4 (this one was done as recently as, er, 2010...) studies for the Western Section were done long before Network Rail took over leadership of the scheme. Everyone involved was well aware of the scale of the challenges. Electrification wasn't even on the agenda until the Government finally took an interest - after telling the consortium for years that it was up to them to make a case and find lots of funding - in large part on the back of that Grip 4 study. Since which time the scope of the project has been steadily widened.

The funding the Consortium gathered would have paid for the 'do minimum' proposal that was their GRIP 4. Now that the DfT is going to bankroll the scheme it has:

1. A more intense service pattern;
2. Covers a larger geographic area;
3. Provides a better quality railway corridor;
4. Effectively feeds into the wider regional/national network.

So, the original scheme developed by the Consortium is quite different from that being promoted by the DfT, Network Rail and the Consortium now.
 
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