Why such relatively low ridership on the AVE?

[mrmartin]

Somehow clicked through to this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-value-for-money-at-10-times-the-cost-of-hig/

There's a graph of high speed system length. Both France and Spain have similar sized systems, but France's carries 10x the passengers of Spain! Are these figures right, and if so how come?

Thanks

 

[deltic]

I would suggest there are a number of factors. Spain's rail service historically have been quite poor which led to a very comprehensive and cheap coach network developing with a reasonable quality offering. Then came the low cost airlines and competition low fares and frequent services made routes such as Barcelona Madrid one of the busiest in Europe. In France high speed rail was introduced when the railways had a far greater share of the market and in a very regulated transport market. In Spain high speed rail was introduced in a much more competitive and deregulated market where it had a much smaller market share.

My perception is that Spain's network with the exception of Madrid to Barcelona also links smaller centres than France's so making it more difficult to build up volumes of traffic.

 

[30907]

Or, to put it bluntly, most of the Spanish high speed system had/has a very poor business case, and the recession there can't have helped.

SNCF also have a well developed low fares policy which produces impressive loadings. I was on the 1419 Paris- Toulon (-Ventimiglia) yesterday and the load in 2nd was almost 100% (I didn't check the second Duplex which was an iDTGV (internet-only) working. On board staffing was minimal.

I notice that the Telegraph article didn't have a graph for revenue per passenger Km, where I reckon SNCF would be at the lower end.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/693280/European-Commission-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Spain-railway

OK it comes from the Daily Express - but more financial woes for AVE / Spain. - "state aid" etc. There have been a few good articles in the press over how Spanish AVE is sucking the finances out of the system , to the detriment of the classic lines. The FEVE network in particular s seeing very hard times.

 

[rg177]

I noticed this on the Mediadistancia services between Malaga and Seville too. The frequency was really random and meant that unless you travelled very early in the morning the first arrival in Seville was 1325. There were maybe only about 15 people in my coach all the way through, with a couple of passengers leaving at stops in between.

That said, the AVE service to Barcelona did look rather popular when I saw it.

 

[Greenback]

I think that there are several factors involved, and deltic has already talked about some of them. I think that the demographics are different in Spain. Most of the population is situated in the coastal areas, whereas in France there is more of a spread of people across the country.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think that there are several factors involved, and deltic has already talked about some of them. I think that the demographics are different in Spain. Most of the population is situated in the coastal areas, whereas in France there is more of a spread of people across the country.

Very much so - and the heart of the country is , or has been depopulating towards cities and of course the coast. Striking , rocky , people-empty areas -not quite Aberystwyth to Carmarthen though (sorry...)

After the largesse to Ireland by the EU , Spain did quite well - but good though investment is in rail , it does not always bring in the business.

 

[Greenback]

Some countries are far better suited tor ail than others. The difference between France and Spain int his respect is quite large.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not statistically significant, but all 5 high speed services I used in the last 2 years were very busy (in September each time).
That's San Sebastian-Madrid, Madrid-Toledo return, Madrid-Cordoba-Seville (2 trains), Santiago de Compostela-Madrid (100% full, even in 1st).
What is odd is the low frequency of trains to eg Galicia and Vasconia - only 2-3 per day.
For some reason they like to run a few very long trains rather than more frequent short ones.
They also don't do clock-face times.
Another paradox is that the most recent high speed lines to open have been single track (eg Valladolid-Leon).
RENFE has also spent a lot on variable-gauge high-speed trains running through to classic lines (including via Madrid, involving 2 gauge changes).
They even have bi-mode, bi-voltage, bi-gauge tilting high-speed trains (RENFE S-730, like the one which crashed in Galicia in 2013).

 

[gordonthemoron]

How long (time) is the Madrid-Toledo AVE service? ISTR that the old non AVE service didn't take that long

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How long (time) is the Madrid-Toledo AVE service? ISTR that the old non AVE service didn't take that long

33 minutes non-stop (75km), pretty much hourly (Avant EMUs).
Lovely original station building at Toledo, in Moorish style.
Security checks just like AVE. No through trains to anywhere other than Madrid Atocha.
You pass the main AVE maintenance depot at La Sagra soon after joining the LAV.
No cheap fares as far as I could see (€12.90 each way).
Toledo is a very interesting and scenic city.
I can also recommend Salamanca (which you can now reach by Avant high speed train using the Zamora LAV).

 

[theageofthetra]

The only thing to mention re the Madrid- Toledo AVE is to give yourself plenty of time to get through security when returning to Madrid at Toledo. Even on a winters day last Dec it took quite a while and I think some did miss it. Toledo station is also quite a walk if you have mobility issues.

If you do enjoy a walk I would thoughly recommend doing the walk round the cliff road (or get a taxi) to get to the view point which gives the classic postcard view of the old town.

Back to the AVE- I was travelling to Spain a lot when these routes were being constructed & many of those I spoke to said that other than single business travellers on expenses many Spanish see public transport along similar lines to some in the USA- its for the poor. They would rather jump in their car and are often travelling in a group anyway so is cheaper. Many of the intermediate stations are like those on the Chinese high speed network- miles from the town they are supposed to serve with poor transport into the town. In China development is rapidly springing up around the new stations, Spain simply doesn't have the population or a strong enough economy to allow the same.

I hope their network survives and doesn't end up another massive waste of EU (i.e yours) subsidy like the Velez Malaga tram fiasco.

 

[AlexNL]

Security checks just like AVE.

One of the downsides of the AVE system, if you ask me. I can understand why the checks are there given the history with the ETA, but nowadays the ETA is no longer active and the 2004 Madrid bombings have shown that terrorists will simply pick a different target (the Cercanías commuter train network).

I think Renfe should consider abolishing the safety checks, not only will it save them money but it will also take away a small hurdle.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you do enjoy a walk I would thoughly recommend doing the walk round the cliff road (or get a taxi) to get to the view point which gives the classic postcard view of the old town.

One of the few times I've taken a hop on/off tour bus.
It starts in the station yard and initially circles the city on the cliff road, stopping for the view from the south across the gorge.
Then into the city from the west and up to the Alcazar, saves all the climbing.
Half price for seniors too, very tourist friendly.

 

[JonathanP]

Spain has been engaged in a massive High Speed line programme for many years, and apart from the first few most have been built for political reasons and would never pass any test of value for money. The opening of the lines is often timed to be just before an election.

They have these vastly expensive high speed lines, with large numbers of bridges and tunnels, that are built single track because there is so little traffic, for goodness sake! They also, uniquely, have high speed lines which aren't electrified. Despite the lack of passenger traffic, these lines are built without any provision for use by freight.

This year the Spanish government will spend 67% of it's rail budget of high speed lines. Sadly this extravagance comes at the expense of the rest of the network which carries the vast majority of the passengers. However, maintenance of the existing network doesn't give political benefit to the government, so...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is at least one high speed line section in Andalucia which starts and ends in the middle of nowhere.
It is to form part a Seville-Antiquera-Granada LAV, but construction of the western section was "paused" indefinitely after about 30km was built.
It parallels the slow, winding classic line, and a short length has been adapted to carry the classic route (unelectrified) for a few km approaching Bobadilla.

Work has also started on a Madrid-Lisbon high speed line, despite the Portuguese stopping work at their end.
There are currently no direct day services on the route, just a sleeper via Coimbra.
Vote Leave enthusiasts might like to note that a large proportion of the cost of the LAV's in Spain has been funded by the EU - ie by our £350m/week.
But then similar infrastructure investment has been made in places like Ireland, Poland and Greece - mostly on roads.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...onnection.html?sword_list[]=lisbon&no_cache=1

 

[Oscar]

Here are some more possible reasons.Spain's population is significantly less than France's. There are few destinations abroad where rail is close enough to be competitive. France has one clear centre (Paris) and so a concentric network makes sense, Spain has two main centres (Barcelona and Madrid) but the high speed network is formed of radial routes to and from Madrid, Barcelona is too far from much of the country for rail to be attractive. There are at least hourly services or so on Barcelona - Madrid and Madrid - Sevilla, the other lines generally have a handful of trains a day and should probably never have been built.

 

[mrmartin]

Here are some more possible reasons.Spain's population is significantly less than France's. There are few destinations abroad where rail is close enough to be competitive. France has one clear centre (Paris) and so a concentric network makes sense, Spain has two main centres (Barcelona and Madrid) but the high speed network is formed of radial routes to and from Madrid, Barcelona is too far from much of the country for rail to be attractive. There are at least hourly services or so on Barcelona - Madrid and Madrid - Sevilla, the other lines generally have a handful of trains a day and should probably never have been built.

Not sure that is true, population density is nearly equal.

Either way, I'd understand a 50% difference perhaps, but a 10x difference is quite staggering.

 

[HSTEd]

The TGV network has also been around sufficiently long to have a major effect on the demographics and work patterns of the French population - the so called "TGV Belt" for one thing.

That kind of demand takes decades to build up after the line has opened.

 

[Oscar]

Not sure that is true, population density is nearly equal.

Either way, I'd understand a 50% difference perhaps, but a 10x difference is quite staggering.

Agree it's not the main reason.

 

[edwin_m]

Top five cities in France and in Spain, from Wikipedia:

Paris 2.2m
Marseilles 0.9m
Lyon 0.6m
Toulouse 0.5m
Nice 0.2m

Madrid 3.1m
Barcelona 1.6m
Valencia 0.8m
Seville 0.7m
Zaragoza 0.7m

If rail usage depended only on the population of the cities either end of the line, Spain would have more high speed rail ridership than France.

I suspect the reason is actually historic and cultural. Internal communications in Spain have historically been pretty poor right up to the building of high speed rail and motorways from the 1990s onwards, whereas France's road and rail links (at least to the capital) have generally been among the best in Europe. This suggest that cities in Spain are just more self-contained with less tendency for their inhabitants to travel to other cities. If so it may explain why the Spanish went in such a big way for internal transport links when they got the EU funding that allowed them to do so. The population of Spain is about 70% that of France but its GDP is only half.

 

[radamfi]

Top five cities in France and in Spain, from Wikipedia:

Paris 2.2m
Marseilles 0.9m
Lyon 0.6m
Toulouse 0.5m
Nice 0.2m

Madrid 3.1m
Barcelona 1.6m
Valencia 0.8m
Seville 0.7m
Zaragoza 0.7m

As usual, population figures within city limits are quite misleading as they miss out much or even most of the suburbs.

More realistic populations can be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_European_Union

Paris 10.9m
Lyon 1.6m
Marseille 1.4m
Lille 1.0m (including part in Belgium)
Nice 1.0m

Madrid 6.2m
Barcelona 4.7m
Valencia 1.6m
Sevilla 1.5m
Bilbao 0.8m

 

[johnnychips]

The railway east along the coast from Barcelona towards Blanes passes a very large hole at La Sagrera, about two miles from the centre. I go every year and there is a bit of progress each time. The aim is a new station for the AVE, linking in with the local and regional lines to the east.

I often wondered why this was necessary, as Sants just about seems to cope. However, this year nobody was working in the hole, and it seems the project has been suspended.

 

[Groningen]

Something offtopic, but in the same area. There is only a nighttrain from Madrid to Lisboa (Lisbon). One might expect more trains, but no. In the past there was also a Madrid to Cerbere nighttrain. Gone!

 

[Greenback]

The rail connections between Madrid and Lisbon has always been pretty poor, at least since as far back as I can remember. I was surprised as a teenager back in the early 1980's to discover that there were only two trains per day!

As far as population and population density goes, my view is that this only tells part of the story. I think it's more about population spread, as I've always believed that the population spread is different in each country. As I mentioned earlier, in Spain it seems that a sizeable chunk of the populace is focused on the coastal areas, and I also think that it's concentrated into fewer large towns and cities.

Edwin has mentioned that Spanish cities are more self contained, and I'd agree with that, mainly for historical and geographical reasons. I think it's logical to conclude that this, the population spread, geography, and political factors have all worked against rail in Spain in a way in which they haven't in France.

 

[WatcherZero]

The AVE was more of an economic stimulation programme rather than a transport programme.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Something offtopic, but in the same area. There is only a nighttrain from Madrid to Lisboa (Lisbon). One might expect more trains, but no. In the past there was also a Madrid to Cerbere nighttrain. Gone!

And even that is combined with the Irun-Lisbon sleeper at Medina del Campo (used to start from Paris).
There are no longer any proper cross-border services via Cerbere-Portbou or Irun-Hendaye, only the high-speed link Perpignan-Barcelona for TGV/AVE.
At both classic borders, most local Renfe/SNCF trains run to the "other side" and then run back to "their side" empty, a very peculiar practice.
There's still a good local Euskotren metro service across the Hendaye-Irun border, to San Sebastian and beyond.

 

[EAD]

There are some good points being made here but also some classic arguments that the LAVs are all white elephants, political, should never have been built, etc.

There are a few things to keep in mind in my view:

1) Historically, and thanks as well to the fact the dictatorship of Franco only ended in the 70s, Spain has been pretty underdeveloped in terms of transport links. Until the first plans for the LAV between Madrid and Seville, many mainlines were slow and often single track. This was reflected in a large number of long distance night trains across Spain - now sadly as with much of Europe gone or nearly all gone.

2) As with all accession countries, matched EU funding has massively helped with road and rail links. Of course there have been some decisions that are not financially viable and arguably you would struggle on paper to make the case for new lines in Spain at all, but clearly given the geography and distances it lends itself to it for the greater good. The two main corridors (Madrid to Andalucia and Madrid to Barcelona) see regular trains and have seen a shift in usage from car/bus/plane to train.

3) More recent and less justifiable projects have been cut e.g. the cross Andalucia line in times in recession. Others completed, but with a single track initially. Other projects still have been altered to save costs.

4) France has also seen a massive cut in conventional services in favour of high speed ones over time (of course that also helps drive the business case as passengers are forced on to such services). Many of the more recent cuts in Spain also reflect poor usage and cost cutting. Personally I wish that wasn't so, but it is.

5) There can be no doubt that as a social mobility project, the high speed network is impressive and opening up Spain in a way that did not exist before. We have Spanish friends that do use the AVE/AVANT etc more than they would have used conventional trains given the time advantage. The only thing to note is they are not by Spanish standards cheap unless you get a promo fare.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Spain has been engaged in a massive High Speed line programme for many years, and apart from the first few most have been built for political reasons and would never pass any test of value for money. The opening of the lines is often timed to be just before an election.

They have these vastly expensive high speed lines, with large numbers of bridges and tunnels, that are built single track because there is so little traffic, for goodness sake! They also, uniquely, have high speed lines which aren't electrified. Despite the lack of passenger traffic, these lines are built without any provision for use by freight.

This year the Spanish government will spend 67% of it's rail budget of high speed lines. Sadly this extravagance comes at the expense of the rest of the network which carries the vast majority of the passengers. However, maintenance of the existing network doesn't give political benefit to the government, so...

indeed... all politics.
For people who understand spanish search on youtube for a documentary from La Sexta called "cuando eramos ricos" (when we were rich) well worth it!

 

[BigCj34]

It doesn't help that unemployment is 20%, double that of France. Also how commercially focused is the AVE? Do they often have good deals, advance fares, railcards, and the like? At least SNCF have experimented with the likes of OuiGo, knowing they have to be competitive.

It also appears that while they've strived to build the biggest HS rail network in Europe, there are some serious gaps on the network. The north coast Feve line is not well integrated into RENFE (tickets can't be bought online and times can't be retrieved on the RENFE website, while south east and Portuguese links are sorely lacking.