Why SWR`s the worst of all?

[Andy1673]

Sorry if I`d offend anyone my question is what`s wrong with the SWR?!
Why are they EVERY DAY (constantly) suffering of the disruption (any failures)?
Why we suffer of short-formed 4 car 455s instead of 8?
Why they don`t to introduce the 701s normally?
Why the others TOCs can inroduce the new rolling stock and SWR can`t?

 

[WarrenTManager]

I’m not offended. I commute in so I’m hoping it isn’t 4v8. There’s a myriad of reasons there are issues. Three Gold Spanners yesterday out of a possible four tells you we are trying our best. The guys I know who are in new trains are the same people that introduced 458s, 456s and 707s so if you thought those were ok, then again they are trying their best.

 

[pompeyfan]

Are SWR any worse than any other TOC of a similar demographic? GA are similar in network topography and are currently seen as a benchmark but I’m sure they’re not perfect.

The 455s are aging and therefore parts are becoming hard to get hold of (GWR and many others are having similar issues with their West fleet) but as stated above SWR received 3 golden spanner awards.

The 701s are trickling into service, and whilst the rate of introduction is admittedly quite poor, I was speaking recently to a driver who has just passed out on one who said the ones that are fit for service are very nice from a driver perspective and they’d rather drive them than desiros.

NR Wessex route has its fair share of infrastructure issues which affect the ability to run services to time, and with the DfTs drive for crew and rolling stock efficiency it affects the ability to recover service. If a train is delayed at Weymouth, it could cause a knock on effect on routes such as the Portsmouth line, or even the Shepperton line!

I’m not saying SWR are perfect by any means, but there is no magic wand, including transfer to OLR.

From a purely personal point of view I travel everyday on SWR and I must be lucky as I very rarely breech the 15 minute delay repay threshold.

 

[stuu]

Statistically Northern are a lot worse. But that's probably not a lot of comfort when stood on a platform in the cold and rain

 

[43096]

I’m not offended. I commute in so I’m hoping it isn’t 4v8. There’s a myriad of reasons there are issues. Three Gold Spanners yesterday out of a possible four tells you we are trying our best. The guys I know who are in new trains are the same people that introduced 458s, 456s and 707s so if you thought those were ok, then again they are trying their best.

That suggests that the issues are at the top level - the dynamic duo of WorstGroup and DfT. For the 701s add Bombardier into the mix and you have a perfect cocktail for what we have seen, regardless of how good those directly responsible are.

 

[JonathanH]

Are SWR any worse than any other TOC of a similar demographic?

Users of any rail service will generally think their service is worse than all the others.

 

[D365]

Why they don`t to introduce the 701s normally?
Why the others TOCs can inroduce the new rolling stock and SWR can`t?

That is the million dollar question. Certainly no-one on this forum is in a position to answer it.

 

[WarrenTManager]

That is the million dollar question. Certainly no-one on this forum is in a position to answer it.

Maybe for a million pounds!

 

[Haywain]

It's worth bearing in ind that the intensity of use of the main lines into Waterloo means that any significant disruption elsewhere on SWR will most likely have knock on effects on trains in and out of London.

 

[AJW12]

Never thought I'd be defending SWR as a regular passenger but here I am

SWR is far from perfect - the occasional under forming of trains can be irritating, trains regularly (at least from Richmond, where I catch them from) do run a few minutes late and make connections at Clapham challenging, they do sometimes end up crawling all the way from Barnes to Waterloo in the morning peak with no explanation offered, and the 701 rollout speed really is pathetic - the way a couple of months ago they announced on X "we have rolled them out onto the Shepperton line", when in reality they operate two peak services a day and everything else is operated by the hideous 455s (a massive downgrade on the 707s it used to get!), and the use of guards who seem to be paid per minute of announcements they make...

However, it's very rare I've ever can't make a journey with them because of cancellations or significant disruption. Compare that to the other operators I use often - Thameslink who you can still find regularly 50% of the departure board cancelled in the evenings and the Overground which seems to have daily infrastructure problems... they are actually the best out of all the regular operators I use.

Hopefully they can speed up the 701 rollout to a bit more than one more unit every two months! - things can stabilise a bit more.

 

[nctd2306]

SWR is far from perfect - the occasional under forming of trains can be irritating.

Unfortunately the short forms are more than just occasional now, the 455s are falling like flies and I must say, on the metro side Shepperton seems to have it the worst with regular 4 car trains and cancellations due to lack of stock. Indeed exactly half of the diagrams on that line are down to 4 car today. Until they start getting more all day and weekend 701 diagrams in, this will continue to be the case: there was also an all day 4 car 455 on the 2C07 Reading diagram yesterday which I had the pleasure of catching both to and from work...

 

[meld3]

....I was speaking recently to a driver who has just passed out on one who said the ones that are fit for service are very nice from a driver perspective and they’d rather drive them than desiros.....

The Unions kept saying they were unsafe, and had horrible cramped cabs that needed totally rebuilding and bulkheads moving.
So did the pay rise resolve it, or have the cabs been rebuilt ?

 

[SWT_USER]

I mentioned in another thread that the whole SWR era has had the feel of managed decline. Whatever the excuses, ultimately all that's happened since they took over is they've cut services and made their trains shorter.

COVID has served as a useful excuse for them, because had it not happened I don't think they would be able to deliver the timetable - they barely manage now. As it is we've still got lots of services missing under the guise of falling passenger numbers. Anyone unfortunate enough to travel on an 8 car 455 instead of a 10 coach 458 or 707 would disagree.

 

[norbitonflyer]

COVID has served as a useful excuse for them, because had it not happened I don't think they would be able to deliver the timetable - they barely manage now.

COVID can't excuse the delay in introducing the 701s though. On the original timescale they would have all been in service before COVID existed.

 

[SWT_USER]

COVID can't excuse the delay in introducing the 701s though. On the original timescale they would have all been in service before COVID existed.

Totally agree. COVID bought them some time. If we were still at 2019 passenger levels the situation would be much worse than it currently is.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Never thought I'd be defending SWR as a regular passenger but here I am

SWR is far from perfect - trains (at least from Richmond, where I catch them from)

Richmond is seen by SWR as important. Just down the line at St Margarets, North Sheen and Mortlake, they have seen a 50% reduction in service with the truncation of the Hounslow Roundabout service.
And SWR's will skip stops at the drop of a hat - not often Richmond, but Kingston is almost as busy (probably more so if you include on SWR passengers).

 

[Andy1673]

COVID can't excuse the delay in introducing the 701s though. On the original timescale they would have all been in service before COVID existed.

sorry but COVID cannot be excuse for anything now in the end of 2024. All we see is a result of the lack of competence, unwillingness, references to bureaucracy and at the same time lack of real control and desire of DfT and lack of lawsuits from outraged customers (I can be wrong but this is my opinion)

 

[pompeyfan]

sorry but COVID cannot be excuse for anything now in the end of 2024. All we see is a result of the lack of competence, unwillingness, references to bureaucracy and at the same time lack of real control and desire of DfT and lack of lawsuits from outraged customers (I can be wrong but this is my opinion)

Okay I’ll play devils advocate, I know as a passenger you just want a reliable service however I’ll ask the question anyway, how do you fix all the solutions that affect you?

 

[Andy1673]

Okay I’ll play devils advocate, I know as a passenger you just want a reliable service however I’ll ask the question anyway, how do you fix all the solutions that affect you?

that was a joke but... if we could find a very very sophisticated lawyer... )))))

 

[pompeyfan]

that was a joke but... if we could find a very very sophisticated lawyer... )))))

That wasn’t me being defensive (or offensive), just asking a question. Clearly you’re unhappy with the service SWR deliver to you (as are countless x000s) but how do the problems get fixed. I can’t imagine the 701 introduction is being withheld for giggles so clearly there are issues with something, whether it’s platforms, training or the units themselves.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Okay I’ll play devils advocate, I know as a passenger you just want a reliable service however I’ll ask the question anyway, how do you fix all the solutions that affect you?

We are where we are, and doubtless people are working hard to fix the issues. But someone should be held to account for how we got here

 

[Cymroglan]

Every time I persuade someone to travel SWR with me, they let me down.
The latest one was giving us a 4 car unit (450) vice a 10 car 444 all the way from Bournemouth to Waterloo. This was the 08.15 weekday departure.
I won’t bore you with the details of our suffering. It was bad. She will continue to travel by Road….

 

[pompeyfan]

Every time I persuade someone to travel SWR with me, they let me down.
The latest one was giving us a 4 car unit (450) vice a 10 car 444 all the way from Bournemouth to Waterloo. This was the 08.15 weekday departure.
I won’t bore you with the details of our suffering. It was bad. She will continue to travel by Road….

Isn’t that one of the ones that attaches at Southampton and then goes forward as a 9 car?

 

[D9006]

Statistically Northern are a lot worse. But that's probably not a lot of comfort when stood on a platform in the cold and rain

And Northern are run as a OLR

 

[wastedlife]

I mentioned in another thread that the whole SWR era has had the feel of managed decline. Whatever the excuses, ultimately all that's happened since they took over is they've cut services and made their trains shorter.

The only aspect in which I disagree with you is the use of the word "managed", as though there were some element of planning, forethought and deliberation to the decline. In my view MTR and First Group and the individuals in executive management running SWR have completely overreached themselves in terms of ambition and stated objectives, and the race to the bottom has come about due to total managerial incompetence rather than conscious decisions. The franchise bid promised much, but every substantive promise has been executed abysmally. We had strikes within weeks of SWR taking over (for the first time in 20 years, I believe), the 442 debacle, the 458 debacle, the chimera of the promised new timetable, the premature 456 retirement and 701 debacle/farce. SWT management did communicate with passengers - regular "meet the manager"s, and magazines in the Desiros. SWR have bunkered down and hoped no-one will notice.

I watched the interview with the Engineering Director on the subject of the WoE line rolling stock and electrification with interest. The plan sounds compelling, until you consider SWR's dismal record of total failure of any project they have attempted, and the fact this individual presumably must shoulder substantial amounts of the responsibility for these failures. Dubai was built on the maxim of "build it, and they will come", whereas SWR has operated under the principle of "destroy it, and they will carry on working from home".

It would be nice to have more than two fast trains to Surbiton from 5pm-6pm; six were promised in the fabled "new timetable". The New Line would like their fast services in morning and evening restored. Hampton Court and THD punters would like the 19:23 fast restored. I would like it not to be the case that the worst service from THD is not in the 07:30-09:00 period. I understand the current constraints (although it's entirely of SWR's making imo) - some view of the prospects for the future and recognition/responsibility for the pain SWR has inflicted on its customer base would be nice.

 

[Cymroglan]

Isn’t that one of the ones that attaches at Southampton and then goes forward as a 9 car?

I’m no expert, so please don’t take this as 100% reliable, but I think it becomes 9/10 at Bournemouth? There are, I think, several earlier trains which become 9/10 at Southampton.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It would be nice to have more than two fast trains to Surbiton from 5pm-6pm; six were promised in the fabled "new timetable". The New Line would like their fast services in morning and evening restored. Hampton Court and THD punters would like the 19:23 fast restored. I would like it not to be the case that the worst service from THD is not in the 07:30-09:00 period. I understand the current constraints (although it's entirely of SWR's making imo) - some view of the prospects for the future and recognition/responsibility for the pain SWR has inflicted on its customer base would be nice.

Never mind the new timetable - it would be nice if Mortlake, North Sheen and St Margarets had their services restored to the 4tph they had in the old timetable. I know one development (on the "Homebase" site in the angle between the Overground and SWR routes) was granted planning permission on the basis of the public transport links available locally including 4tph at North Sheen.

And where we usually got ten-car trains we now get only eight, or sometimes just four. (And increasingly no train at all)

 

[43096]

The only aspect in which I disagree with you is the use of the word "managed", as though there were some element of planning, forethought and deliberation to the decline. In my view MTR and First Group and the individuals in executive management running SWR have completely overreached themselves in terms of ambition and stated objectives, and the race to the bottom has come about due to total managerial incompetence rather than conscious decisions. The franchise bid promised much, but every substantive promise has been executed abysmally. We had strikes within weeks of SWR taking over (for the first time in 20 years, I believe), the 442 debacle, the 458 debacle, the chimera of the promised new timetable, the premature 456 retirement and 701 debacle/farce. SWT management did communicate with passengers - regular "meet the manager"s, and magazines in the Desiros. SWR have bunkered down and hoped no-one will notice.

I watched the interview with the Engineering Director on the subject of the WoE line rolling stock and electrification with interest. The plan sounds compelling, until you consider SWR's dismal record of total failure of any project they have attempted, and the fact this individual presumably must shoulder substantial amounts of the responsibility for these failures. Dubai was built on the maxim of "build it, and they will come", whereas SWR has operated under the principle of "destroy it, and they will carry on working from home".

That sums it up very neatly. I'll add the Desiro refurbishment that was 12 months late on a 12 month programme.

It would be nice to have more than two fast trains to Surbiton from 5pm-6pm; six were promised in the fabled "new timetable". The New Line would like their fast services in morning and evening restored. Hampton Court and THD punters would like the 19:23 fast restored. I would like it not to be the case that the worst service from THD is not in the 07:30-09:00 period. I understand the current constraints (although it's entirely of SWR's making imo) - some view of the prospects for the future and recognition/responsibility for the pain SWR has inflicted on its customer base would be nice.

Likewise, over on the Windsor side, us Reading line residents have our peak service cut by half, and capacity is around 40% of what it was (was 4 x 10-car per hour in the peak, now 2 x 8-car if we're lucky). Then there's the ever-extending journey times to try to mask the limp and sloppy opperating (straight out of the FGW playbook). It now takes me 2hrs door-to-door to get home because of the timetable cuts for a journey of less than 35 miles. No wonder I am working from home whenever I can to avoid using SWR.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Not a user myself but looking from afar, are they not on their fifth MD in 7 years since takeover from.Stagecoach ? that itself can't have helped , as for the rankings below such as COO I dont know but assume the same. Other TOCs have been quite stable in that regard.

 

[Invincible]

The only aspect in which I disagree with you is the use of the word "managed", as though there were some element of planning, forethought and deliberation to the decline. In my view MTR and First Group and the individuals in executive management running SWR have completely overreached themselves in terms of ambition and stated objectives, and the race to the bottom has come about due to total managerial incompetence rather than conscious decisions. The franchise bid promised much, but every substantive promise has been executed abysmally. We had strikes within weeks of SWR taking over (for the first time in 20 years, I believe), the 442 debacle, the 458 debacle, the chimera of the promised new timetable, the premature 456 retirement and 701 debacle/farce. SWT management did communicate with passengers - regular "meet the manager"s, and magazines in the Desiros. SWR have bunkered down and hoped no-one will notice.

I watched the interview with the Engineering Director on the subject of the WoE line rolling stock and electrification with interest. The plan sounds compelling, until you consider SWR's dismal record of total failure of any project they have attempted, and the fact this individual presumably must shoulder substantial amounts of the responsibility for these failures. Dubai was built on the maxim of "build it, and they will come", whereas SWR has operated under the principle of "destroy it, and they will carry on working from home".

It would be nice to have more than two fast trains to Surbiton from 5pm-6pm; six were promised in the fabled "new timetable". The New Line would like their fast services in morning and evening restored. Hampton Court and THD punters would like the 19:23 fast restored. I would like it not to be the case that the worst service from THD is not in the 07:30-09:00 period. I understand the current constraints (although it's entirely of SWR's making imo) - some view of the prospects for the future and recognition/responsibility for the pain SWR has inflicted on its customer base would be nice.

Good summary
The current contract expires 28 May 2025. Could the contract then be run by directly by GBR with as much current staff as possible, but new customer focused top management?
But will still have a few months of the current management spending time looking for new jobs and not caring about the operation or 701 rollout?