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Why SWR`s the worst of all?

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SWT_USER

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Good summary
The current contract expires 28 May 2025. Could the contract then be run by directly by GBR with as much current staff as possible, but new customer focused top management?
But will still have a few months of the current management spending time looking for new jobs and not caring about the operation or 701 rollout?
Management don't appear to have cared for the last 5 years so I doubt anyone will notice. They could hardly introduce them more slowly if they tried.

I'm not under any illusion that GBR will magically fix everything SWR have done, but I do feel we're in 'it can't be any worse' territory.
 
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Invincible

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Management don't appear to have cared for the last 5 years so I doubt anyone will notice. They could hardly introduce them more slowly if they tried.

I'm not under any illusion that GBR will magically fix everything SWR have done, but I do feel we're in 'it can't be any worse' territory.
Although Claire Mann did make a bit of progress, but has been snapped up by TfL.
 

Transilien

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It’s frustrating that Stagecoach was basically banned from running for franchises when they were probably the best private operator ever on the UK rail network. South West Trains, East Midlands Trains, Virgin Trains (maybe not the east coast franchise) all were very successful and it seems extremely short sighted by the DFT to ban Stagecoach over a pension dispute.
 

Clarence Yard

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Stagecoach weren’t banned from bidding but they chose to withdraw from bidding.

On SWR, it was the classic case of an incumbent knowing too much about the railway they were operating and not answering the exam question. FG did answer the exam questions, irrespective of whether they thought they were sensible and won the bid.

The overall timetable structure was cooked up between the DfT and NR HQ for the bid. The route weren’t involved so when the bid timetable hit, they were not amused. That’s where the franchise went wrong from the start. There were massive disagreements. Prior to COVID, it was all going to get very legal as Shapps was publicly threatening OLR and FG were gearing up for a fight, based around the Franchise Agreement and where that timetable risk sat. FG have very good contract lawyers who know their business.

COVID and the ending of that FA in March 2020 made the legal problem go away but since then SWR has been under effective Government control anyway so moving it to DOHL this May won’t make too much difference - DOHL will still be working to the detailed DfT business plan that SWR are contracted to work to.

Don’t forget what a DOHL takeover means. A couple of DOHL people just come in and sit on and chair the TOC board. The existing TOC staff from top to bottom stay the same, until DOHL decide to replace one or two senior execs, if they feel they want to. It isn’t a wholesale change from day one with a complete new management team.
 

Haywain

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The overall timetable structure was cooked up between the DfT and NR HQ for the bid. The route weren’t involved so when the bid timetable hit, they were not amused. That’s where the franchise went wrong from the start. There were massive disagreements. Prior to COVID, it was all going to get very legal as Shapps was publicly threatening OLR and FG were gearing up for a fight, based around the Franchise Agreement and where that timetable risk sat. FG have very good contract lawyers who know their business.
This is, broadly, what happened with the East Coast franchise as well when Stagecoach won it. They bid according to DfT specifications but Network Rail weren’t doing the work to allow the specified timetable to work. That, in turn, meant that the revenue forecasts could never work and the premiums wouldn’t be paid.
The existing TOC staff from top to bottom stay the same, until DOHL decide to replace one or two senior execs, if they feel they want to.
Or until the senior execs decide to leave, having a better offer within First Group or elsewhere.
 

norbitonflyer

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It’s frustrating that Stagecoach was basically banned from running for franchises when they were probably the best private operator ever on the UK rail network. South West Trains, East Midlands Trains, Virgin Trains (maybe not the east coast franchise) all were very successful and it seems extremely short sighted by the DFT to ban Stagecoach over a pension dispute.
SWT were far from perfect. They started by letting too many drivers go, and then wondering why they had to cancel so many trains. There were also some strikes in the early days.

Their new (2004) timetable promised much that it didn't deliver: far from an increase in services on our line the peak hour service was cut from six trains per hour to four, and because of the poor timing of the Kingston Loop services Strawberry Hill now sees two trains to London every half hour - two minutes apart, and the extra Shepperton services in the evening peak are similarly useless as they leave Waterloo just one minute after the regular services.

Their remodelling of our local station was predicated on everyone passing through the booking hall, making the journey longer for the majority of passengers, who have no need to buy a ticket as they use Oyster, contactless, season tickets or the return half of a return ticket, or because they are leaving the station having arrived by train. The coffee shop which replaced the original main entrance had to close its street entrance because the "desire line" for most intending passengers still went through it. They did install a lift, after my complaints about manhandling my children's buggies up and down the stairs (and the staff's refusal to help). I did, however, have to point out that it had taken so long that the child in question had recently passed his driving test.

The remodelling of the 455s was not popular in our area, as the reduction in seating capacity meant we now had to stand for the 30 minute journey to Waterloo, (in breach of PIXC standards). They claimed that in the old layout "the middle seats were the last to be filled" - maybe, but they were filled.
But, most egregiously, was their policies on fares. They dragged their feet on all aspects of Oyster, inisting on passengers buying "extension permits" if they intended to travel out of the zones of their Travelcard, even though the system would automatically add the fare when they got to the other end.

They also seemed to think it an outrageous suggestion that station staff should be able to advise about local buses when, as so often, we got chucked off the trains and expected to fend for ourselves. The CEO with whom I was speaking remarked "Why should we advise on our "competitors'" services?" - very revealing that he saw them in that light, rather than as complementary to their service, or indeed a fallback.

And they refused to countenance any adjustment to resolve zoning anomalies, mendaciously claiming it was out of their hands as it was a TfL matter - although TfL have responded positively to approaches from other operators to rezone stations. SWT claimed it would have to get the agreement of "the other operators", despite the fact that at the stations in question they were the only one - they suggested bus zones would have to be modified, apparently ignorant of the fact that bus zones were abolished when Oyster was introduced in 2003 - or that the boats were competition (the first boat from Hampton Court does not arrive at Westminster until after the last one back has left, and there is no service at all until Good Friday. And of course the argument that they would "have to" increase fares somewhere else, if they reduced them for us.

No names no pack drill, but at my observation that the latest fare increase, ratrher than being used to improve (or even maintain) services, was instead being shovelled into shareholder dividends, another CEO said he regarded 2% not, as I had thought, a reward for competence but as an entitlement.

And the fact that some of the revenues from my Season Tickets were being used to fund the homophobic campaigns of Stagecoach's Chairman (specifically his opposition to the repeal of "Clause 28") stuck in the gullet too.

So yes - SWR were not paragons - and I was initially glad to see the back of them. The moral being "Be careful what you wish for"

This is, broadly, what happened with the East Coast franchise as well when Stagecoach won it.
DOHL won no friends in my circle when they took over East Coast the first time, and immediately allowed themselves to scrap some of the services that would, supposedly have made the franchise uneconomic for National Express - but weren't allowed to scrap themselves. In particular, the restoration of direct trains between London and Lincoln was put back by 11 years, but in the meantime the ECML timetable was otherwise set in stone, so connections at Newark were poor - in particular because the trains which should have gone to Lincoln sat in platform 3 at Newark until it was time to return to London - meaning any connecting services to and from Lincoln could not use that platform at the same time - so no train from Lincoln could have arrived until after the London train had left, and vice versa. And as these trains were HSTs, they were perfectly capable of going to Lincoln.

And EC never honoured connections at Newark anyway - I have experienced a dispatcher waving a London-bound train away even as a full-and-standing 153 was disgorging its contents on the opposite platform. "We have to keep to the timetable" doesn't wash when over 70 people have been denied what the timetable promised.

The alleged savings of £9m per annum were allegedly necessary to prevent EC running at a loss. It made a profit of £200m in its first year.

The direct services woulod have been very useful for my teenage children to visit their grandfather and vice versa. Sadly, the services were not restored until it was six months too late.
 
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Invincible

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Alongside her work on operating SWR, she also oversaw a wide range of renewal projects, including the introduction of a £1bn fleet of new trains and a £26 million modernisation of the Island Line on the Isle of Wight.
The 701s started running, but no proper rollout. So a "bit" of progress, but could have been more.
Replaced by Stuart Meek who become Interim Managing Director, and still interim!
 

Bigfoot

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The 701s started running, but no proper rollout. So a "bit" of progress, but could have been more.
Replaced by Stuart Meek who become Interim Managing Director, and still interim!
Little point in appointing a new MD when there's no likelihood of an extension/renewal of the contract.
 

gabrielhj07

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Another corker from SWR this evening. 2O57 Waterloo - Waterloo had lost 6 minutes by Mortlake, nothing serious, but the powers that be have just declared it shall run fast between Twickenham & Clapham Jn.

Reasons given by the guard were ‘severe delay’ (6 minutes?), and ‘overcrowding’ (there are 10 of us in my carriage).

Is there something unique about SWR’s operation that compels them to abandon their ‘service’ for seemingly no good reason?
 

MontyP

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Richmond is seen by SWR as important. Just down the line at St Margarets, North Sheen and Mortlake, they have seen a 50% reduction in service with the truncation of the Hounslow Roundabout service.
And SWR's will skip stops at the drop of a hat - not often Richmond, but Kingston is almost as busy (probably more so if you include on SWR passengers).
Epsom and Worcester Park also down from 4 to 2 per hour, Dorking and Bookham now only hourly off-peak.

And don't get me started on the ludicrous skip stopping policy that they implement, particularly on the Sheppertons when they leave only a few mins late. This causes daily aggravation for a member of my family who travels to Hampton from Raynes Park and finds that there isn't a week goes by without services sailing through RP without stopping.
 

swr444

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Epsom and Worcester Park also down from 4 to 2 per hour, Dorking and Bookham now only hourly off-peak.

And don't get me started on the ludicrous skip stopping policy that they implement, particularly on the Sheppertons when they leave only a few mins late. This causes daily aggravation for a member of my family who travels to Hampton from Raynes Park and finds that there isn't a week goes by without services sailing through RP without stopping.
The shepperton timetable is stupid and needs sorting out. They really need to add another unit diagram to it when the 701s are all in service, so there is extra turn around time at shepperton. more padding in the timetable would also be handy as it is very easy to lose time, with 2-3min of timing between each station, if it's busy or the crew are slower than normal, you lose time quickly.
 

MontyP

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The shepperton timetable is stupid and needs sorting out. They really need to add another unit diagram to it when the 701s are all in service, so there is extra turn around time at shepperton. more padding in the timetable would also be handy as it is very easy to lose time, with 2-3min of timing between each station, if it's busy or the crew are slower than normal, you lose time quickly.
Is there any reason why the Shepperton diagrams are self-contained? I thought this was because of the 707s? I can't see a way of alleviating the short turnaround at the country end but it's the same at Waterloo as well. I think all the other SW metro services on the Wimbledon side interwork except for the Sheppertons
 

Invincible

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Another corker from SWR this evening. 2O57 Waterloo - Waterloo had lost 6 minutes by Mortlake, nothing serious, but the powers that be have just declared it shall run fast between Twickenham & Clapham Jn.

Reasons given by the guard were ‘severe delay’ (6 minutes?), and ‘overcrowding’ (there are 10 of us in my carriage).

Is there something unique about SWR’s operation that compels them to abandon their ‘service’ for seemingly no good reason?
Think if too many trains arrive late (by 5 minutes?) then SWR would get a penalty, but the rules allow them to run fast to make up time and avoid penalties. The rules do not actually seem to help passengers.
Happened in 2012 when SWT had to cut monthly and annual season ticket prices by five per cent because of the large number of trains which have run late or been cancelled.
 

infobleep

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Users of any rail service will generally think their service is worse than all the others.
Of course, if users get a choice of companies, they can compare them and I imagine one will come out better than another.

I regularly use Govia Thameslink Railway, Great Western Railway and South Western Railway.

The first class offering on Govia Thameslink Railway is poor. Probably worst of the three. I think South Western Railway is possibly the best. Obviously one gets less declassified first class on South Western Railway, of that's your thing.

My favourite SWR services as a passenger is the 444s.
 

gabrielhj07

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Think if too many trains arrive late (by 5 minutes?) then SWR would get a penalty, but the rules allow them to run fast to make up time and avoid penalties. The rules do not actually seem to help passengers.
Happened in 2012 when SWT had to cut monthly and annual season ticket prices by five per cent because of the large number of trains which have run late or been cancelled.
I understand what they were playing at now; left the train at Twickenham to walk the rest of the way, and it seemed as though they were running the train fast to accommodate Rugby fans. Diabolical service for passengers at intermediate stations, who would have had an hours wait.
 

norbitonflyer

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The 701s started running, but no proper rollout. So a "bit" of progress, but could have been more.
Replaced by Stuart Meek who become Interim Managing Director, and still interim!
The Isle of Wight modernisation didn't go well either - late, when it did start it was only one unit instead of two, and closed again because they hadn't fixed the pier whe the rest of the line was closed.

Is there any reason why the Shepperton diagrams are self-contained? I think all the other SW metro services on the Wimbledon side interwork except for the Sheppertons
The Kingston rounders are self-contained as well - probably for the best as any problem on those would rebound on both the Windsor and main sides if they interworked.
 

Haywain

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The Kingston rounders are self-contained as well - probably for the best as any problem on those would rebound on both the Windsor and main sides if they interworked.
Delays on those services, and the Sheppertons, will affect other routes anyway because of the intensity of the traffic on lines to and from Waterloo.
 

norbitonflyer

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Of course, if users get a choice of companies, they can compare them and I imagine one will come out better than another.

My favourite SWR services as a passenger is the 444s.
Well, if only we did have a choice. They have a monopoly in most of SWT land. Even within London, they have a monopoly of one borough and almost another.

But if your experience of SWT/SWR is 444s, it will be very different to the plebmobiles 455s. SWT colour-coded the rolling stock to help the staff know what the contents were:

White - clients, to be cossetted
Blue - Customers, to be humoured
Red - Cash cows, to be herded

Think if too many trains arrive late (by 5 minutes?) then SWR would get a penalty, but the rules allow them to run fast to make up time and avoid penalties. The rules do not actually seem to help passengers.
As I undertsand it they get penalised for skip stopping. The advantage to them is that it gets to the end of the line in time to make the return journey on time, and avoid a second penalty.
No, that does not help the passengers using intermediate stations.

Another corker from SWR this evening. 2O57 Waterloo - Waterloo had lost 6 minutes by Mortlake, nothing serious, but the powers that be have just declared it shall run fast between Twickenham & Clapham Jn.

Reasons given by the guard were ‘severe delay’ (6 minutes?), and ‘overcrowding’ (there are 10 of us in my carriage).
No point running it at all then, since there are quicker trains from Twickenham to Clapham Junction and Waterloo via Richmond. It is skipping all the stations on the Loop, which are its raison d'etre.

We get dangerous crowding on the stairs up from Platform 5 at Wimbledon (the up slow) when they instigate ticket checks in the morning peaks - with missed connections (no small matter if you are trying to catch a Thameslink, which only runs every 30 minutes). Oh, yes, they are very keen to make sure you are paying for the service. Not so keen on ensuring you are getting the service you are paying for though.
 
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infobleep

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The remodelling of the 455s was not popular in our area, as the reduction in seating capacity meant we now had to stand for the 30 minute journey to Waterloo, (in breach of PIXC standards). They claimed that in the old layout "the middle seats were the last to be filled" - maybe, but they were filled.
If that was the case, why weren't the 450s remodelled to remove the middle seat? After all they are the last to he filled.
 
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gabrielhj07

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No point running it at all then, since there are quicker trains from Twickenham to Clapham Junction and Waterloo via Richmond. It is skipping all the stations on the Loop, which are its raison d'etre.
Just ridiculous. I know they had a lot of Rugby traffic to accommodate but deciding halfway through a service to run fast to destination shows incredible contempt for anyone trying to use it.
 

Invincible

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But if your experience of SWT/SWR is 444s, it will be very different to the plebmobiles 455s. SWT colour-coded the rolling stock to help the staff know what the contents were:

White - clients, to be cossetted
Blue - Customers, to be humoured
Red - Cash cows, to be herded
So true, even the red 707s felt like cattle trucks when lines were busy (at least they had air con unlike the 455s).
 

norbitonflyer

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Just ridiculous. I know they had a lot of Rugby traffic to accommodate but deciding halfway through a service to run fast to destination shows incredible contempt for anyone trying to use it.
It seems to have nothing to do with the rugby traffic. It was going the wrong way round the loop, and as the previous comment said, there were only ten people on his carriage, so not very effective as a crowdbuster.

The skip stopping rarely achieves any time saving anyway because they still end up following stopping services. Down services do occasionally get sent ion the fast lines as far as New Malden, (first stop then is Norbiton) but up trains never. It seems that the signallers are not told of the skip stop orders.
 
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DarloRich

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Why SWR`s the worst of all?

It isn't. Try Northern, or TPE or XC. However they don't serve rich southern city types..........................
 

wastedlife

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Why SWR`s the worst of all?

It isn't. Try Northern, or TPE or XC. However they don't serve rich southern city types..........................

There are far more realistic car alternatives in Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle etc, on the XC routes - as well as air options on longer XC routes.
When SWR goes down, or makes drastic reductions to timetable, what are London commuters to do? (Answer - wfh, again). Before this year, my record longest commute home to zone 6 was 2h30, a suicide at Wimbledon in October 2005. That record has been broken three times in 2024 (January, May and August), and I have only been going in three times a week and have just had two months off for a hip replacement. They couldn't run a whelk stall.

I saw on BBC last week that TPE/Northern (can't recall which) is now reinstating services it removed a year ago. SWR land has had reduced services for almost five years now. It's incredible to think SWT ran it so relatively smoothly and made a shed load of cash for the DfT - something like £250m a year on £1bn turnover.
 

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Think if too many trains arrive late (by 5 minutes?) then SWR would get a penalty, but the rules allow them to run fast to make up time and avoid penalties. The rules do not actually seem to help passengers.

Not so. It would have cost SWR more in penalties to run it fast (and have cancelled stops) than to call at its booked stations. It was done to help the vast majority of passengers on that route at that time, inconveniencing a few.
 

Horizon22

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The premise of the thread is completely wrong for a start. Yes the 701 introduction has been a debacle.

But on various metrics (passenger satisfication / punctuality / reliability) they are not the worst. They are probably somewhat middling with XC generally seen to be the worst.

Of course most people do travel on only 1 or 2 TOCs in their daily life so have a limited view on what other people around the country are experiencing daily.
 

norbitonflyer

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Not so. It would have cost SWR more in penalties to run it fast (and have cancelled stops) than to call at its booked stations. It was done to help the vast majority of passengers on that route at that time, inconveniencing a few.
Not so. They run empty trains past packed platforms, benefitting the few passangers on the train to the detriment of those it runs past. They do indeed get a penalty for cancelled stops, - but the reason they do it is to game the system - by getting it to the end of the line in time to start the return trip on schedule. If they called at the booked stops, then both the outward and return journeys would incur a delay, and thus a penalty.
What would inconvenience fewer passengers would be to terminate short, (eg at Fulwell) so that it can still serve the busiest stations (as I have previously observed, Norbiton alone has as many passengers as the total of the five stations on the Shepperton branch, and Kingston has twice as many), and take up the return path at the point it turned, but that would mean twice the financial penalty.

That said, SWT used to frequently terminate late running trains in the bay at Kingston, which is not a useful place for onward connections (it is two stops short of the junction with the main line or, going the other way, two stops beyond it)
 

Horizon22

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Not so. They run empty trains past packed platforms, to no benefit to them. They do indeed get a penalty for cancelled stops, - the reason they do it is to game the system - by getting it to the end of the line in time to start the return trip on schedule. If they called at the booked stops, then both the outward and return journeys would incur a delay, and thus a penalty.

This again.

It is "not gaming the system". You have contradicted yourself in the same paragaph. You have said "to no benefit to them" and then agreed that it is "to start the return trip on schedule". This is an important factor for reactionary delays (e.g trains not at junctions / conflict points on time causing knock on impacts) not to mention crew relief issues. And they still get a penalty for the missed stops as it would be a RT/PPM failure.

Running trains late without any service recovery impacts more passengers overall.
 
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