Why was Wales and West broken up?

[PHILIPE]

The withdrawal of any ATW services to Bristol and the South West were all SFA/DFT initiated

 

[merlodlliw]

Not taken long to descend into North-South Wales bashing has it?
More to the original Wales & West point though, we had Manchester-Marches-Bristol-Waterloo/Penzance services from W&W which are much missed.

I remember the Manchester/Waterloo running through Shrewsbury, it only picked up at Newport on the return to Manchester, it was 158 stock and frequently failed,if I recall it took about six hours, I am sure no pax from Manchester used it to London.

 

[TEW]

Arriva Trains Wales' services that operated from Wales to the South West were (12 June - 10 December 2005 Timetable):
06:40 Camarthen - Penzance
07:05 Pembroke Dock - Exeter St Davids
10:35 Milford Haven/10:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Penzance

06:24 Penzance - Crewe/Milford Haven
14:37 Exeter St Davids - Milford Haven
14:53 Penzance - Swansea

Wessex Trains also operated these (Alphaline) trains:
06:00 Cardiff Central - Penzance
15:05 Portsmouth Harbour - Penzance
17:00 Cardiff Central - Exeter St Davids (the Cardiff to Taunton stoppers didn't exist then)

07:47 Penzance - Portsmouth Harbour
10:25 Penzance - Cardiff Central


The ATW services ceased to run after 10 December 2005, and the Wessex Trains ones didn't last much longer either.

The Wessex services ceased under FGW control when they introduced their major December 2006 timetable change. The Milford/Manchester-Penzance and Penzance-Crewe/Milford Haven were formed of a Class 158+153, the 153 forming the Milford Haven portion.

 

[Quakers Yard]

The Portsmouth trains often originated west of Cardiff I am sure in Wales and West days.
Thought Alphaline became Wessex which in turn became FGW.
Both had a few oddities like Portsmouth to Penzance and Par to Pontypridd at some point
I also recall the cheaper but takes all-day way to London from Cardiff via Warminster if you got the connection at Newport from Manchester. SWT from Bristol to Waterloo has that route now.
Also thought Valley Lines became Cardiff Railways which became ATW in 03.

 

[tbtc]

A lot of these services were linked for operational reasons rather than any passenger demand (in the way that Transpennine Express link places on the eastern side of England with places on the western side of England through a busy core without any huge demand to travel from Liverpool to Scarborough or from Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport).

However I still think that a Liverpool - Marches - Bristol service is a loss from the modern railway (though it'll never happen as everything seems to be focussed on serving Cardiff these days)

 

[krus_aragon]

Also thought Valley Lines became Cardiff Railways which became ATW in 03.

Cardiff Railway Ltd was the company that held the Valleys franchise, and operated under the name "Valley Lines".

 

[TEW]

Thought Alphaline became Wessex which in turn became FGW.

Alphaline was the long distance brand of Wessex, and before them Wales & West, and possibly Regional Railways itself. It wasn't a separate franchise.

 

[Eagle]

Alphaline was a RR brand for sub-InterCity expresses, but I think W&W were the only ones to keep the name (for instance, Central renamed theirs Citylink, whereas Northern Spirit created the Transpennine Express brand).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I remember the Manchester/Waterloo running through Shrewsbury, it only picked up at Newport on the return to Manchester, it was 158 stock and frequently failed,if I recall it took about six hours, I am sure no pax from Manchester used it to London.

I used it as part of my then-regular Surbiton-Huddersfield journey, as a rugby injury meant avoiding the tube was more of a priority than a quick journey!

 

[43074]

Alphaline was a RR brand for sub-InterCity expresses, but I think W&W were the only ones to keep the name (for instance, Central renamed theirs Citylink, whereas ATN created the Transpennine Express brand).

Sorry to be pedantic, but IIRC, Alphaline was only used by Central Trains in their early years, but it was used by Wessex Trains until at least 2005, when it still appeared in the National Rail Timetable.

Alphaline wasn't even for all RR sub-InterCity services, just those from Cardiff (mainly).

Transpennine services were never Alphaline - just 'Express'.

 

[TEW]

Even the first FGW timetables still retained the Alphaline brand. It finally stopped in May 2006 IIRC.

 

[jones_bangor]

You'd be surprised at the attitude of many of Mid Walains to Cardiff and the Welsh Government but they still support the Wales Rugby Team.

I'd suggest that a majority of Mid Walians used to hold that view, but that view is now a minority view?

I have yet to meet anyone who traveled on the train in North Wales also campaigning for Cardiff control at that time, I also recall at the time of privitisation clapped out Heritage dmus etc. A train every two hours Wrexham to Chester which few used,

Well things have certainly improved for Wrexham under "Cardiff control"...?

Direct trains to Chester, Holyhead, Birmingham, Cardiff (and London - didn't Cardiff even pay for stabling facilities for defunct WSMR?).....?

And those good people at Cardiff are about to pay for re-doubling Wrexham - Chester so that there'll be even more trains!?

 

[Eagle]

Did Wrexham not have trains to Chester before Wales and Borders then? :P

 

[merlodlliw]

I'd suggest that a majority of Mid Walians used to hold that view, but that view is now a minority view?

Gareth will respond, as neither me or you are Mid Waliens.




Well things have certainly improved for Wrexham under "Cardiff control"...?

Direct trains to Chester, Holyhead, Birmingham, Cardiff (and London - didn't Cardiff even pay for stabling facilities for defunct WSMR?).....?

And those good people at Cardiff are about to pay for re-doubling Wrexham - Chester so that there'll be even more trains!?

Come on Jones, Direct trains to Chester from Wrexham,for the last 150 years this as been the case

Birmingham was served by Central & before that BR & Great Western,

The stabling for W/S at Wrexham was WEFO Euro Money via Cardiff not from Cardiffs purse strings .

Wrexham redouble is Euro money as well.

And don't tell me VT Wrexham to London is Cardiff's idea

 

[jones_bangor]

Come on Jones, Direct trains to Chester from Wrexham,for the last 150 years this as been the case

Birmingham was served by Central & before that BR & Great Western,

The stabling for W/S at Wrexham was WEFO Euro Money via Cardiff not from Cardiffs purse strings .

Wrexham redouble is Euro money as well.

And don't tell me VT Wrexham to London is Cardiff's idea

"Wrexham redouble is Euro money as well." - so the decision to redouble the line was taken in Brussels and 100% funded by them. That's news to me!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did Wrexham not have trains to Chester before Wales and Borders then? :P

I was just detailing what is available now.....I wasn't saying that you couldn't go there before. It isn't quite "you've never had it so good Wrexham....." but certainly not since Beeching.

 

[merlodlliw]

"Wrexham redouble is Euro money as well." - so the decision to redouble the line was taken in Brussels and 100% funded by them. That's news to me!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You know how Euro money works, the same applied to Ebbw Vale line under objective one,

I was just detailing what is available now.....I wasn't saying that you couldn't go there before. It isn't quite "you've never had it so good Wrexham....." but certainly not since Beeching.

Like it or not, Wrexhams improvements started with Central Trains,brand new 170s and extra services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"Wrexham redouble is Euro money as well." - so the decision to redouble the line was taken in Brussels and 100% funded by them. That's news to me!!

In this non-transparent world, it's difficult to say where railway money comes from.
You can be sure that very little comes from Welsh taxes.
Cardiff is merely prioritising spend from its income from various sources, mostly from HMG and some from EU.
Most public infrastructure projects qualify for EU support.

 

[merlodlliw]

In this non-transparent world, it's difficult to say where railway money comes from.
You can be sure that very little comes from Welsh taxes.
Cardiff is merely prioritising spend from its income from various sources, mostly from HMG and some from EU.
Most public infrastructure projects qualify for EU support.

When I delt with Euro funding, it was called funny money, you were awarded say £100K for a project, provided we made a contribution of 30%.
To mere mortals 30% meant £30K, however the 30% was not in cash but other means, many were put off until they realized how funny money worked.
To be sure the money for the Wrexham redouble is not Welsh Govt raised.
You explain it well LNW-GW joint.

 

[jones_bangor]

When I delt with Euro funding, it was called funny money, you were awarded say £100K for a project, provided we made a contribution of 30%.
To mere mortals 30% meant £30K, however the 30% was not in cash but other means, many were put off until they realized how funny money worked.
To be sure the money for the Wrexham redouble is not Welsh Govt raised.
You explain it well LNW-GW joint.

If the money is European, then that will only contribute a %. "ERDF will only contribute a maximum of 50% of eligible expenditure"

The rest (c. 50%+) will Welsh Government funding. There's nothing "funny" about the funding source, I'm sure you could get a line by line breakdown if you asked!!

No Type of Project ERDF Intervention Rate
1 Maximum for any project under any circumstances 50%
2 Infrastructure (capital) projects generating substantial net revenue 25%
2a These rates may be increased for forms of finance other than direct assistance +10%
3 All other infrastructure (capital) projects 50%
4 Direct investment in SMEs 15%
4a These rates may be increased for forms of finance other than direct assistance +10%
5 Technical Assistance for projects carried out at the Commission’s initiative 100%
6 Other Technical Assistance 50%

 

[Gareth Marston]

If the money is European, then that will only contribute a %. "ERDF will only contribute a maximum of 50% of eligible expenditure"

The rest (c. 50%+) will Welsh Government funding. There's nothing "funny" about the funding source, I'm sure you could get a line by line breakdown if you asked!!

No Type of Project ERDF Intervention Rate
1 Maximum for any project under any circumstances 50%
2 Infrastructure (capital) projects generating substantial net revenue 25%
2a These rates may be increased for forms of finance other than direct assistance +10%
3 All other infrastructure (capital) projects 50%
4 Direct investment in SMEs 15%
4a These rates may be increased for forms of finance other than direct assistance +10%
5 Technical Assistance for projects carried out at the Commission’s initiative 100%
6 Other Technical Assistance 50%

Sorry guys dont know where you get the idea its European money from. Certainly the body that gives out European money is unaware of it as I've trawled through WEFO's website of lists of approved projects and expressions of interests/projects in development and there isn't any sign of it.
Its also not in a Convergence designated area (the sustainable transport pot is only available there) and part of it is in England so I'm at a loss as to where the idea its euro money comes from.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

To be fair , Wales and West suffered from 1996 with a tight subsidy profile and a no growth agenda - when it was expanded with the Cambrian and North Wales , - with a better subsidy profile things improved no end. Unfortunately , NX lost the competition after putting a pretty good effort.

Someone needs to do a business history of this - as John Davies did for the Valley Lines up to 1996 ...one of my favourite reads I have to say.

 

[TheWalrus]

where did the ATW service go to?

Arriva Trains Wales' services that operated from Wales to the South West were (12 June - 10 December 2005 Timetable):
06:40 Camarthen - Penzance
07:05 Pembroke Dock - Exeter St Davids
10:35 Milford Haven/10:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Penzance

06:24 Penzance - Crewe/Milford Haven
14:37 Exeter St Davids - Milford Haven
14:53 Penzance - Swansea

Wessex Trains also operated these (Alphaline) trains:
06:00 Cardiff Central - Penzance
15:05 Portsmouth Harbour - Penzance
17:00 Cardiff Central - Exeter St Davids (the Cardiff to Taunton stoppers didn't exist then)

07:47 Penzance - Portsmouth Harbour
10:25 Penzance - Cardiff Central


The ATW services ceased to run after 10 December 2005, and the Wessex Trains ones didn't last much longer either.

if the Taunton-Cardiff stoppers didn't exist how were the stations served back then? I was around just don't remember!

 

[43074]

if the Taunton-Cardiff stoppers didn't exist how were the stations served back then? I was around just don't remember!

The local stations were served by a Gloucester to Taunton local I think. The local Westbury stoppers were from Cardiff IIRC.

 

[TEW]

Thought it was Taunton-Cardiff at that period, with the Exeter and Penzance services being extensions of them, calling at stations between Bristol and Taunton. It was switched to Westbury-Cardiff in December 2006 but was it was changed back shortly after, December 2007 I believe.

 

[Zoe]

The 2000 Wales & West timetable shows the local service from Taunton terminating at various locations including Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Cardiff Central, Swindon, Gloucester and Worcester Shrub Hill. Some of these services started back from Exeter or west. I'm not sure how much this changed during the Wessex era before the Greater Western franchise.

 

[TEW]

The May 2005 TT has hourly services from Taunton-Bristol, mainly extending to Cardiff and hourly from Weston-Bristol, mainly extending to Gloucester or beyond. There were variations throughout the day though, the timetable was much less simple than it is now. There was also the unique 0730 Highbridge-Cardiff, a very unusual place to start a service.

 

[quarella]

There was also the unique 0730 Highbridge-Cardiff,

Highbridge - Haverfordwest was the full journey. Also went Main Line Highbridge to Worle missing out Weston-super-Mare. Lots of MOD people for Filton Abbey Wood used it.

 

[TEW]

By 2005 it was just Highbridge-Cardiff and was running via Weston.