Wi-fi on trains

[XAM2175]

In a conversation with him, much like this one, he was saying how GSMR had the potential to provide essentially office broadband speeds to trains, nationwide, in tunnels/remote areas etc. Would require an upgrade that would apparently not be too cheap, but the potential is there. Someone will probably have to explain the upgrade required!

The current GSM-R can't do this - it's effectively 2G mobile (remember that?) with some extra bits attached specially for the railways. Some countries have deployed a 4G system and the UIC is working is on a 5G version, but it'll be a long time before we see one of them here.

It's all a moot point though because nobody at NR is going to want to piggyback public access onto a safety-critical system, especially given that the GSM-R system will become increasingly vital to operations as the ERTMS rollout continues (because ERTMS uses GSM-R data connections to transmit movement authorities to trains).

 

[jon0844]

GSM-R is ancient, but 2G is actually a pretty good tech and in many ways, for voice and simple messaging, was better than W-CDMA that formed 3G here. 4G and 5G are significantly better for data, but does the railway really need to upgrade? Think of the cost.

I can see the DfT and NR perhaps conceding and allowing its infrastructure (such as masts) perhaps one day carrying equipment for other carriers, but one reason wasn't just separating safety critical stuff with commercial stuff - but also the issue of planning consent. NR perhaps enjoys a status that allows masts to go where commercial sites would be refused (or would have at the time).

Now the Government is allowing much more to be built without planning consent, so we might see changes in the future. We are already going to see something akin to this on the Brighton mainline to give contiguous 5G coverage to the railway.

 

[miklcct]

I find my mobile reception is pretty bad on trains unless the train is in a city or town, and even in a town there are a lot of places where there is no reception at all.

For example, on a train from Bournemouth to Branksome, when the train departs, I can no longer access anything anymore until it reaches Branksome, while from Bournemouth to Southampton, there is nearly no signal for a long stretch in New Forest, including at Brockenhurst.

Also, the SWR WiFi is useless as well, so basically I am totally disconnected on the trains.

I switched from 3 to iD mobile and it didn't improve.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'll caveat this whole post with the warning that I am not an especially "tech-savy" person, so the finer details may well be lost on me - however - a family friend was a consultant to one of the contractors who fitted out the railway network with GSMR. In particular, his role was to do with optimal mast siting and power supply to the shore based system.

In a conversation with him, much like this one, he was saying how GSMR had the potential to provide essentially office broadband speeds to trains, nationwide, in tunnels/remote areas etc. Would require an upgrade that would apparently not be too cheap, but the potential is there. Someone will probably have to explain the upgrade required!

Seems to me, if the industry is serious about providing conditions for people to work from the train (which seems an important priority to business travellers and commuters), this level of Internet access is far more desirable than a little box of sim cards that connects up to 70 or so users via conventional mobile networks. As the OP states, as things stand, I find phone data far more reliable than train WiFi.

AIUI, right across the country the GSM(R) masts were only allowed under the railway’s permitted development rights for works to the signalling system. To dual role them for public use would be outside the existing planning permission.

It may be a technically possible upgrade, but that’s fairly academic if every local authority objects to the new purpose.

…I switched from 3 to iD mobile and it didn't improve.

Never heard of iD mobile, but Google tells me they use the 3 network…

 

[jon0844]

I find my mobile reception is pretty bad on trains unless the train is in a city or town, and even in a town there are a lot of places where there is no reception at all.

For example, on a train from Bournemouth to Branksome, when the train departs, I can no longer access anything anymore until it reaches Branksome, while from Bournemouth to Southampton, there is nearly no signal for a long stretch in New Forest, including at Brockenhurst.

Also, the SWR WiFi is useless as well, so basically I am totally disconnected on the trains.

I switched from 3 to iD mobile and it didn't improve.

I don't think there's ever been great reception for any network on parts of the SWR network, especially near the forests, which obviously means the onboard Wi-Fi will struggle too.

 

[Aictos]

I don't think there's ever been great reception for any network on parts of the SWR network, especially near the forests, which obviously means the onboard Wi-Fi will struggle too.

That's true, there's a tunnel location on the Midland Mainline that on a Three SIM would lose connection yet a EE SIM would keep a full strength signal, now though I believe Three have done some work on the location as the Three signal is just as good as the EE one.

As to the SWR network example above while it may be the case that a year ago, maybe two years ago mobile phone coverage was non existent, that may no longer be the case today with the improvements in coverage that all operators are doing except Vodaphone who seem to be going downhill.

 

[Dai Corner]

That's true, there's a tunnel location on the Midland Mainline that on a Three SIM would lose connection yet a EE SIM would keep a full strength signal, now though I believe Three have done some work on the location as the Three signal is just as good as the EE one.

As to the SWR network example above while it may be the case that a year ago, maybe two years ago mobile phone coverage was non existent, that may no longer be the case today with the improvements in coverage that all operators are doing except Vodaphone who seem to be going downhill.

MBNL - Mobile Broadband Network Limited

MBNL, award winning network joint venture between EE and Three.

mbnl.co.uk

MBNL is jointly owned by EE and Three, two of the UK’s leading and most innovative mobile operators. Established in 2007 as the industry’s first network-sharing joint venture, MBNL’s mission is to provide best-in-class mobile infrastructure services to EE and Three for serving their tens of millions of customers in the UK.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What a very London-centric comment. Tried getting a mobile signal between York-Darlington?

I don't think it was particularly London-centric, just pointing out that there are fewer and fewer "dead spots" and that those problems that seemed insurmountable a few years ago (such as deep tunnels) are no longer insurmountable. Standedge tunnel would have been just as good an example as the Northern City Line.

 

[the sniper]

What a very London-centric comment. Tried getting a mobile signal between York-Darlington?

You say that, but on EE I've found much of the WCML and BR LM region, south of Preston at least, seems to have pretty good 3/4g coverage, with fairly predictable, intermittent black spots. Pendolino's and Voyagers seem to act like faraday cages though, resulting in a worse signal than necessary or than you'd get on a Desiro or BREL stock. Personally, I've never used on train wifi, even being a heavy user of the internet on trains.

Anecdotally, I get the impression EE is best for railway coverage.

 

[Aictos]

MBNL - Mobile Broadband Network Limited

MBNL, award winning network joint venture between EE and Three.

mbnl.co.uk

Yes I'm aware of that, I was saying for a while you got no signal at all with Three there but you did with EE now you get a signal with both.

 

[jon0844]

MBNL - Mobile Broadband Network Limited

MBNL, award winning network joint venture between EE and Three.

mbnl.co.uk

MBNL only shared 3G sites and so 4G and 5G will see EE and Three doing things differently (massive difference in 5G rollout strategy), plus it is worth noting that Three didn't use every site it could for 3G either, preferring to expand coverage using 4G 800 - which gives good coverage but very slow speeds (often unusable).

 

[Dai Corner]

MBNL only shared 3G sites and so 4G and 5G will see EE and Three doing things differently (massive difference in 5G rollout strategy), plus it is worth noting that Three didn't use every site it could for 3G either, preferring to expand coverage using 4G 800 - which gives good coverage but very slow speeds (often unusable).

EE, 3 take passive route to 4G network-sharing

EE, the biggest mobile operator in the UK, has struck a 4G network-sharing deal with Three, the smallest.

www.mobileworldlive.com

The 4G deal between EE and 3 UK, however, is a passive network-sharing arrangement – commonplace among 3G operators – where mast infrastructure and backhaul transmission costs, but not the equipment, are shared.

Presumably this would explain why

..... there's a tunnel location on the Midland Mainline that on a Three SIM would lose connection yet a EE SIM would keep a full strength signal, now though I believe Three have done some work on the location as the Three signal is just as good as the EE one.

 

[thenorthern]

WIFI on trains is still useful as it's more reliable and stable than 4G internet. With many people now they can leave their WIFI on so that it can connect automatically. Given the topography of the United Kingdom and given how the bodywork of trains acts like a Faraday cage 100% coverage of the railways for mobiles is a long way off.

 

[py_megapixel]

Could trains be fitted with some kind of mobile signal repeater device? I'm thinking of a reasonably large antenna on the roof (which would afford presumably much better signal than the internal antennae in phones) which picks up mobile signals and rebroadcasts them inside the carriage.

It would be more of a fit-and-forget solution than wifi and would be quite low cost to the operator while still providing many of the same benefits.

 

[sor]

I wonder if this could be an area for LEO satellite, particularly the one the UK gov now has a partial share in. Nationwide coverage and gets around anti-mast types. Maybe could be augmented in high-demand areas. Would also avoid the need for mobile repeaters inside trains as wifi calling could be used.

Won't work in tunnels but then neither do mobile signals, at least not without further work

 

[Steddenm]

I have a new Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra 5G and noticed today that on the East Coast Mainline near Chester-le-Street both the SIMs in the phone (one is Vodafone, the other EE) were showing the network as 00-000 and a GPRS connection rather than the usual 4G/5G in the area. I did a network search and saw that the 00-000 had a number of other networks such as 00-009 through to 00-045, all showing with a padlock symbol except for the 00-000. Could my phone be trying to connect to the GSM-R networks?

I couldn't make or recieve calls but could use a VERY slow data connection. According to Speedtest it was an average of 2 bits per second.

 

[ABB125]

I like on-train wifi, because I'm probably the only 19-year-old in the country who doesn't have a phone contract (I use PAYG, primarily because my phone usage is pretty much nil!). As a result, data costs me 1p per MB, which is extortionate compared with the rates you get on contracts. Thus I use wifi whenever possible (and generally the only thing I'm doing whilst on the train is using Realtime Trains or reading this forum, so I don't have any speed issues etc).
Impressively, on a few recent trips into Birmingham New Street on the Cross-City line, the WMR wifi has worked continuously through the tunnels from Five Ways, whereas both my SIM cards have had no signal (O2 and 3).

 

[YellowBrick]

I use the wifi because I don't have mobile internet. Not everyone does.

It does have amusing things like the fact that the LNER wifi has that annoying "register here" thing, which requires consenting to Terms and Conditions that you can't read until you're on the wifi (they're behind the wifi wall).

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure how it would impact the PAYG rates, but if you're travelling a lot then I'd suggest the best networks for data are EE and Vodafone. If you have a dual-SIM phone, one of each will pretty much be the best combination you can have.

I fully appreciate Wi-Fi will be better than spending money unnecessarily, and of course Wi-Fi can be more convenient for laptop/tablet users if you aren't able to use a mobile to tether data wirelessly with your non-cellular devices.

 

[Stampy]

When I did a Peterborough - Edinburgh - Glasgow - London Euston - London King’s Cross - Peterborough trip 2 years ago, I did some surfing on my phone using my network (3)

Peterborough - Edinburgh = No problems
Edinburgh - Glasgow = No problems
Glasgow - London Euston = REALLY struggled due to the Faraday nature of the Pendolinos*
London King's Cross - Peterborough = No problems


* I say this because at every stop, when the doors opened the signal suddenly got a LOT better...

 

[sor]

I have a new Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra 5G and noticed today that on the East Coast Mainline near Chester-le-Street both the SIMs in the phone (one is Vodafone, the other EE) were showing the network as 00-000 and a GPRS connection rather than the usual 4G/5G in the area. I did a network search and saw that the 00-000 had a number of other networks such as 00-009 through to 00-045, all showing with a padlock symbol except for the 00-000. Could my phone be trying to connect to the GSM-R networks?

I couldn't make or recieve calls but could use a VERY slow data connection. According to Speedtest it was an average of 2 bits per second.

NR has a 234-xx code I think, in line with the UK public networks. They're on different frequencies to public GSM and so it is unlikely that an off the shelf handset would have the right hardware for it. 00-000 would suggest a bug with the phone or someone's doing something naughty nearby

I like on-train wifi, because I'm probably the only 19-year-old in the country who doesn't have a phone contract (I use PAYG, primarily because my phone usage is pretty much nil!). As a result, data costs me 1p per MB, which is extortionate compared with the rates you get on contracts. Thus I use wifi whenever possible (and generally the only thing I'm doing whilst on the train is using Realtime Trains or reading this forum, so I don't have any speed issues etc).
Impressively, on a few recent trips into Birmingham New Street on the Cross-City line, the WMR wifi has worked continuously through the tunnels from Five Ways, whereas both my SIM cards have had no signal (O2 and 3).

Bear in mind that PAYG these days doesn't have to mean rip-off prices, most networks let you buy monthly packs with as much minutes/texts/data as you desire.

 

[ABB125]

Bear in mind that PAYG these days doesn't have to mean rip-off prices, most networks let you buy monthly packs with as much minutes/texts/data as you desire.

Yes, but my usage doesn't even justify that!

 

[Skie]

Data uplink masts are starting to pop up in Merseyrail land. Each train should have at least 100mbps to play with, some of that for passenger use via the onboard Wi-Fi. Promises to be the most complete solution to the problem and will cover the entire network, even the tunnels.

 

[Aictos]

Data uplink masts are starting to pop up in Merseyrail land. Each train should have at least 100mbps to play with, some of that for passenger use via the onboard Wi-Fi. Promises to be the most complete solution to the problem and will cover the entire network, even the tunnels.

That's a start, be good if other operators followed suite.