The examples above are not showing the "fastest route" but showing the quickest time available if departing at a certain time. e.g. if you just miss the hourly xx:05 train direct that takes 2 hours, and there's an xx:10 option via a longer (and, in fact, slower) route that takes 2 hours 50 minutes, then that will get you to your destination quicker than waiting for the next train. That's the sort of issue that's being discussed here.
I believe it is a separate issue when the fastest route isn't a valid route, and I certainly agree it should be.
But the two issues should not be confused.
Indeed it is. I would agree that the fastest route by normal timetabled services should be a permitted route, however, as yorkie says, problems occur when there is a gap in the normal timetable at certain times. For example, the Scarborough to Dewsbury example above.
The valid journey on a Saturday evening is:
Scarborough depart 1948
Leeds arrive 2104
Leeds depart 2140
Dewsbury arrive 2151
The next departure from Scarborough towards York is at 2203 arriving at Dewsbury at 2346.
However, if you miss the 1948 by a few minutes, or even put in a search on NRES for a departure at 2000 hrs, then the following connection occurs:
Scarborough depart 2003
Hull arrive 2128
Hull depart 2133
Dewsbury arrive 2251.
It is most certainly not the fastest normal journey (it takes 2hrs 48minutes as opposed to 2hrs 3 minutes / 1hr 43 minutes via the direct route), but it just happens that is the quickest journey at that particular time due to an unusually large gap in the timetable on the fastest, most direct, shortest - and permitted - route.
Just because it is the fastest journey at that time, is it automatically valid? I would say no. (And it isn't a permitted route as per the routeing guide). Whilst NRES does tell you that you need multiple tickets if you look at prices, this is not at all clear nor obvious if you already have a ticket and are just searching for train times. And even if you did look at the ticket prices it is still not desperately obvious what it means - especially if you already have a ticket in the first place.
In the OP's case there are direct trains from Widnes to Liverpool at 2005 & 2058, arriving at 2030 & 2134 respectively. However, if you miss the 2005 it is quicker to catch the 2011 to Warrington then double back arriving at Liverpool at 2059. Whilst this may be the quickest, it is most certainly not permitted on one ticket just because it is the quickest journey at that time. And I don't think it ought to be. The fact that NRES shows this is confusing to those that do not full understand (which most passengers do not!).
This depends on which station was used in Glasgow. Assuming route Any Permitted tickets, Glasgow Cen/QSt - Leeds is not permitted via Manchester, but High St Glasgow - Leeds is permitted via Manchester using map combination WY+GM+NW+ZZ and Edinburgh Group as an appropriate Routeing Point.
I know we had this discussion recently regarding the use of map ZZ - Sleeper Trains for non sleeper trains. My interpretation is that map ZZ is only valid when used by sleeper trains, and NRES always says you need multiple tickets when going the way you suggest.
Another interesting one. How did you calculate the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled (the passenger) to travel by that route.?
I didn't do it in full. I went by the Excess fares instructions as regards "travelling by a different route with a higher fare" which state :
"Charge the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Single fare for the journey being made.
If no through fare, charge the appropriate Single fare for the part of the journey not covered by the ticket held."
and charged a single fare for the portion of the journey on my train.
This is another case of the journey being slower - but quicker.
By leaving St Pancras at 1855 and there is a gap in the timetable from Sheffield to Manchester, thus it is quicker to go via Leeds. NRES says the following:
St Pancras depart 1855
Sheffield arrive 2100
Sheffield depart 2124
Leeds arrive 2221
Leeds depart 2240
Manchester Piccadilly arrive 2337.
Now this is going via Chesterfield, but is not a permitted route with that ticket as going via Leeds is not permitted.
However, the next journey is:
St Pancras depart 1955
Sheffield arrive 2216
Sheffield depart 2224
Manchester Piccadilly arrive 2343.
This later - and correct & permitted journey - leaves 1 hour later and arrives only 6 minutes later. Even if catching the 1855 from St Pancras changing at Sheffield should still be advised - is 6 minutes saving worth paying quite a bit more money for? (Although admittedly if booking in advance it may be cheaper with advance fares, but this is not the case if looking for on the day journeys).
