Wigan-Bolton services after electrification?

[Starmill]

It's more likely that one of the Southport services would simply terminate at Wigan Wallgate than some of the more "clever" ideas.

Is the rolling stock situation of Northern such that they still need the Class 769 units?

At present when class 150s cover for them it results in a number of services formed of two coaches instead of four.

I've found in the May - September 2019 timetable a Rochdale -> Southport that skips all stops between Rochdale and Victoria as well as, Swinton, Moorside, Hag Fold, Hindley, Ince, Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane (ok those last 3 aren't a suprise, they still only have a train every other hour).

This appears to have run starting at Rochdale at xx:39 from 8:39 until the late evening.

Surely that's a Leeds - Southport?

Unambitious at best.
The timetable in North Manchester has been fixed since December 2022. This project commenced in September 2021, so has had the best part of 3 years to come up with a timetable to utilise the electrification.
Letting the £100m investment sit unused for another 6+ months is wasteful.

The timetable can't be changed through Manchester until the Taskforce outcomes are agreed. So the choices are between rolling things over or severing a train in two somewhere.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Surely that's a Leeds - Southport?

The timetable I had only showed up to Rochdale, it might've come from further away.

 

[Gricer99]

The timetable can't be changed through Manchester until the Taskforce outcomes are agreed. So the choices are between rolling things over or severing a train in two somewhere.

When is that likely to be? Have they even suggested outcomes yet?

 

[Manutd1999]

It'd make sense if they changed the Southports to run via Atherton with one an hour to Leeds and another to Oxford Road. If they can get the 350/2s then they could use these and 323s to run a half-hourly Wigan - Stalybridge service. It'd be even better if they ran these fast between Bolton and Salford and have another 3/4 car EMU shuttle between Bolton and Victoria serving all stops to retain clockface 30 minute frequency and then use 6 car 323s on Wigan services. An hourly shuttle between Wigan and Headbolt Lane should be doable, only needs 1 unit (or 2 if they wanted to leave more than 5 minutes to turn round after each service)

I think the Wigan-Stalybridge services will be all-stop to Bolton. Maybe SDO could be used to enable 6-car trains?

What about:

DMU: 2ph Rochdale-Wigan all-stop via Atherton, 1ph continuing to Headbolt Lane and 1ph to Southport
EMU (323s): 2ph Stalybridge-Wigan all-stop via Bolton
DMU: 1ph Oxford Road (or Airport) to Southport via Atherton, limited stop

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Maybe SDO could be used to enable 6-car trains?

323s don't have SDO, that's why Westhoughton, Hindley and Ince's platforms are extended.

 

[Manutd1999]

Maybe the 331s, which do have SDO, would be a better fit.

 

[Halwynd]

The limited stop service via Atherton was a peak-hour only service....

I remember the peak hour semi-fast that ran via the Atherton line, I think there was one, perhaps two towards Manchester, and two from Manchester. Last time I used them regularly they were loco-hauled - the stock was a bit kaput and the seat cushion dust was from 1966, but they were reliable and comfortable.

I do have this recollection of a xx:46 Manchester Victoria - Southport service that missed out a few stops on the Atherton line and ran throughout the day, would have been between 2010-2015. Could be wrong and apologies if I am... the powers that be have messed up the Southport/Wigan timetable that much in the last 10 years I'm surprised anyone can keep up!

 

[Starmill]

When is that likely to be? Have they even suggested outcomes yet?

It couldn't have been prior to the completion of work at Salford Crescent anyway. December 2026 maybe.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I do have this recollection of a xx:46 Manchester Victoria - Southport service that missed out a few stops on the Atherton line and ran throughout the day, would have been between 2010-2015. Could be wrong and apologies if I am... the powers that be have messed up the Southport/Wigan timetable that much in the last 10 years I'm surprised anyone can keep up!

That semi-fast only missed out Moorside, Hag Fold and Ince before Wigan, and then missed Gathurst (unthinkable now!) with the 3 halts (Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane) being served 2-hourly (but not late evenings). Aside from the "club" trains the prime service to/from Southport was definitely the Airport service despite going the non-traditional route via Bolton.

 

[Kite159]

It's more likely that one of the Southport services would simply terminate at Wigan Wallgate than some of the more "clever" ideas.

Or potentially the Headbolt Lane service getting terminated at Wigan Wallgate, that way it can use the bay platform (from memory it's only accessable from the Kirkby direction). Would work well as a single 150 shuttle, maybe with a couple of peak time trains to/from Manchester.

 

[Manutd1999]

Or potentially the Headbolt Lane service getting terminated at Wigan Wallgate, that way it can use the bay platform (from memory it's only accessable from the Kirkby direction). Would work well as a single 150 shuttle, maybe with a couple of peak time trains to/from Manchester.

If they do that then they might as well extend Merseyrail to Wigan.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If they do that then they might as well extend Merseyrail to Wigan.

Yes, but will they?

 

[Gricer99]

Depends if the 777s batteries can reliably cope with the extra mileage

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or potentially the Headbolt Lane service getting terminated at Wigan Wallgate, that way it can use the bay platform (from memory it's only accessable from the Kirkby direction). Would work well as a single 150 shuttle, maybe with a couple of peak time trains to/from Manchester.

I know people on here have it in for Southport, but I can't see Southport-Manchester direct reducing to hourly, though I could see both going to Victoria via Atherton so EMUs can be used on Wigan-Castlefield via Bolton.

I could see Headbolt reducing to a single-unit shuttle, it's barely used anyway. Though I would as others have said support extending Merseyrail if that was to happen.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, but will they?

No because it would require significant works at Headbolt Lane, and some works at Rainford and Upholland, and likely closure of the signal box and new installation of signalling. There are also other priorities for new battery fitment.

I know people on here have it in for Southport, but I can't see Southport-Manchester direct reducing to hourly, though I could see both going to Victoria via Atherton so EMUs can be used on Wigan-Castlefield via Bolton.

I could see Headbolt reducing to a single-unit shuttle, it's barely used anyway. Though I would as others have said support extending Merseyrail if that was to happen.

I've never seen anyone here arguing that 2tph Southport - Wigan - Manchester SX with 1tph minimum on Sundays isn't justified by the demand. It pretty plainly is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've never seen anyone here arguing that 2tph Southport - Wigan - Manchester SX with 1tph minimum on Sundays isn't justified by the demand. It pretty plainly is.

Sorry, I thought you were by saying "one of the Southport services would terminate at Wigan Wallgate" - did you mean just swapping one of the present ones with one of the terminators, so still 2tph but just 2 different ones, e.g. both via Atherton to make best use of the DMUs?

 

[Gricer99]

With Oxford Road soon to be out of service, I reckon that the eventual plan is to use only 769s and 323s. Probably 2 tph Southport to Victoria via Atherton operated by 769s. Or maybe one only Southport to Bolton with one Wallgate to Rochdale or Leeds via Calder Valley DMU to give the Atherton line its 2tph?

 

[Kite159]

With Oxford Road soon to be out of service, I reckon that the eventual plan is to use only 769s and 323s. Probably 2 tph Southport to Victoria via Atherton operated by 769s. Or maybe one only Southport to Bolton with one Wallgate to Rochdale or Leeds via Calder Valley DMU to give the Atherton line its 2tph?

Southport to Victoria via Atherton would be a waste of the 769s considering they will be able to run on AC for the short distance between Ince* & Hindley, plus Salford Crescent to Victoria (and I can't see Network Rail like the potential issues with it failing to change over)

If that should happen it would be more suitable for a pair of 150s.

(* Assuming it calls at Ince)

 

[Gricer99]

Good point. Maybe they can bin the 769s then!

 

[amahy]

Good point. Maybe they can bin the 769s then!

Don’t suppose anyone else has thought of this, but perhaps 769s could be used on some Buxton/Hazel Grove diagrams? These services currently spend a lot of time with diesel running under wires.

 

[Starmill]

Sorry, I thought you were by saying "one of the Southport services would terminate at Wigan Wallgate" - did you mean just swapping one of the present ones with one of the terminators, so still 2tph but just 2 different ones, e.g. both via Atherton to make best use of the DMUs?

I don't think it should by any means.

What I was getting at was that it may be what happens anyway as a mitigation for the DMU shortages while awaiting long term fleet renewal to bear fruit. I think everyone would prefer it not be so and it'd be a last resort if the trains can't be accommodated via the Atherton line. The other suggestion of cutting Headbolt Lane back to Wigan Wallgate is superior in capacity terms as this doesn't require shunting at Wigan Wallgate, as Southport does, and also allows the branch to be reduced to two car which speeds it up and releases another unit, but this hits another bigger stakeholder obstacle in that it deprives stations of all through service to Manchester, rather than in the case of Southport they'd only lose half of their through trains to Manchester.

Continued use of 769s to cover the Southports would be superior to all of the above options, as they'd use the AC between Ince and Stalybridge or Manchester Oxford Road. Unfortunately this requires some increase in the availability and reliability in service of the 769s which is looking rather doubtful without taking on more units, which is even more doubtful. Again, ideally the 769s need to be fully spoken for along with the 150s and 156s as part of the fleet renewal, though as we've discussed we're looking at over 5 years here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it should by any means.

What I was getting at was that it may be what happens anyway as a mitigation for the DMU shortages while awaiting long term fleet renewal to bear fruit. I think everyone would prefer it not be so and it'd be a last resort if the trains can't be accommodated via the Atherton line. The other suggestion of cutting Headbolt Lane back to Wigan Wallgate is superior in capacity terms as this doesn't require shunting at Wigan Wallgate, as Southport does, and also allows the branch to be reduced to two car which speeds it up and releases another unit, but this hits another bigger stakeholder obstacle in that it deprives stations of all through service to Manchester, rather than in the case of Southport they'd only lose half of their through trains to Manchester.

So are you talking about Southport down to hourly, or are you talking about one of them just being a Southport-Wigan service to connect with services originating from Headbolt? The latter would be less bad, but TBH isolating Headbolt is probably better as it's barely used, it's about as busy as the Marston Vale on a good day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So are you talking about Southport down to hourly, or are you talking about one of them just being a Southport-Wigan service to connect with services originating from Headbolt? The latter would be less bad, but TBH isolating Headbolt is probably better as it's barely used, it's about as busy as the Marston Vale on a good day.

It depends on how you view Southport and Headbolt Lane as main terminal destinations of longer distance services where a short distance connecting service can meet with to connect at Wigan Wallgate.

A Leeds to Southport direct service which a Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate stopper can connect with st Wigan Wallgate sounds far better than a direct Leeds to Headbolt Lane service in my opinion, for what its worth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A Leeds to Southport direct service which a Headbolt Lane to Wigan Wallgate stopper can connect with st Wigan Wallgate sounds far better than a direct Leeds to Headbolt Lane service in my opinion, for what its worth.

I'd agree. While I don't propose that (Merseyrailing it coupled with and funded by major housing development around the stations would make more sense, including building Skem Parkway on the spare land at Pimbo), you could close Headbolt-Wigan and hardly anybody would notice. Due to the slow service to Manchester and multiple changes if seeking to use it to connect from the rest of Merseyrail to Wigan or Manchester, it's barely any use other than to the tiny number of people who live near the stations, and many of them are much better served by bus anyway. If you have to drop anything, therefore, drop that to a single-unit shuttle, maybe compensate for the loss of through services by providing a proper evening service with the last departure from each end not before 2300.

 

[Gricer99]

Given the journey takes around 25 minutes, an hourly service with a single unit might be possible with crew changeovers at Wigan to allow breaks, but its a bit tight and not very good if connections from Manchester are late.

 

[Starmill]

So are you talking about Southport down to hourly, or are you talking about one of them just being a Southport-Wigan service to connect with services originating from Headbolt? The latter would be less bad, but TBH isolating Headbolt is probably better as it's barely used, it's about as busy as the Marston Vale on a good day.

Correct the latter. Agreed it'd be a sensible sacrifice for Pemberton and Orrell etc passengers to change trains to reach Manchester. However, we will have to see what actually happens.

 

[duffield]

I know people on here have it in for Southport, but I can't see Southport-Manchester direct reducing to hourly, though I could see both going to Victoria via Atherton so EMUs can be used on Wigan-Castlefield via Bolton.

I could see Headbolt reducing to a single-unit shuttle, it's barely used anyway. Though I would as others have said support extending Merseyrail if that was to happen.

Barely used? Maybe it was unrepresentative, but there was quite a decent bunch of us changing to Merseyrail there a few weeks ago, at lunchtime on a miserable cold weekday.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

So are you talking about Southport down to hourly, or are you talking about one of them just being a Southport-Wigan service to connect with services originating from Headbolt? The latter would be less bad, but TBH isolating Headbolt is probably better as it's barely used, it's about as busy as the Marston Vale on a good day.

Barely used is a bit harsh, lightly used off-peak is nearer the mark. The problem is at those times when it is well used not only is a 2-car train barely sufficient but the demand is overwhelmingly cross-Wigan, including college traffic to Orrell. Forcing passengers to change at Wigan will surely drive some of them away from the railway, indeed TfGM would likely shift the students to bespoke direct bus services. A sure way to undermine the economics of the route.

And yes running just a shuttle from Wigan is operationally doable but it's a slog when working multiple trips in a row!

 

[WibbleWobble]

indeed TfGM would likely shift the students to bespoke direct bus services.

It would depend on how far these students are travelling. TfGM only provide some of the routes, others are procured directly by the colleges (and capacity becomes an issue).

 

[amahy]

It’s a shame the platforms at Wigan Wallgate aren’t bi-directional, because if they were, you could theoretically divide/join the Headbolt Lane trains, with 2 cars being detached at Wigan going towards Headbolt Lane to be attached to the next Manchester bound service. (Similar arrangement to the way EMR’s Liverpool to Norwich services currently operate). Mind you, this could be too much hassle to only save one unit.