Wigan-Bolton services after electrification?

[Peter A]

Based on TfN's state of play for the north it looks as though the following will occur:
-Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton (curtailed from Southport)
-Southport to Manchester Oxford Road via Bolton retained (eventually extended to the Airport following Oxford Road remodelling)
-Headbolt Lane to Blackburn via Atherton retained
-Soithport to Victoria via Atherton (replacing Leeds to Wigan service)

It's been stated elsewhere that the Leeds to Wigan service will be split at Victoria (and along with the other Leeds to Victoria Calder Valley services will terminate at Salford Crescent). Furthermore, an additional electrified service will be introduced between Wigan and Stalybridge via Golborne.

 

[amahy]

Based on TfN's state of play for the north it looks as though the following will occur:
-Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton (curtailed from Southport)
-Southport to Manchester Oxford Road via Bolton retained (eventually extended to the Airport following Oxford Road remodelling)
-Headbolt Lane to Rochdale via Atherton retained
-Soithport to Victoria via Atherton (replacing Leeds to Wigan service)

It's been stated elsewhere that the Leeds to Wigan service will be split at Victoria (and along with the other Leeds to Victoria Calder Valley services will terminate at Salford Crescent). Furthermore, an additional electrified service will be introduced between Wigan and Stalybridge via Golborne.

There are three problems here.

1. Headbolt Lane - Rochdale is not a route currently. All trains to Headbolt Lane go from Blackburn via Todmorden, and all trains terminating at Rochdale go from Clitheroe/Blackburn via Bolton.

2. The Wigan to Victoria via Golborne is sparsely used currently, so surely it makes more sense to have more capacity on the routes via Atherton and Bolton, which people use a lot more.

3. Why split Leeds to Wigan at Victoria, when this will require additional platform capacity at Victoria, which simply isn’t there. The slightest disruption at Victoria on the current timetable causes mass platform alterations, which in turn causes delays to mount up. There simply isn’t the platform capacity for more terminating trains from the west direction in my opinion (unless everything runs perfectly).

 

[Peter A]

There are three problems here.

1. Headbolt Lane - Rochdale is not a route currently. All trains to Headbolt Lane go from Blackburn via Todmorden, and all trains terminating at Rochdale go from Clitheroe/Blackburn via Bolton.

2. The Wigan to Victoria via Golborne is sparsely used currently, so surely it makes more sense to have more capacity on the routes via Atherton and Bolton, which people use a lot more.

3. Why split Leeds to Wigan at Victoria, when this will require additional platform capacity at Victoria, which simply isn’t there. The slightest disruption at Victoria on the current timetable causes mass platform alterations, which in turn causes delays to mount up. There simply isn’t the platform capacity for more terminating trains from the west direction in my opinion (unless everything runs perfectly).

1. Typo on my part meant Blackburn not Rochdale, will remain Headbolt Lane to Blackburn via Atherton and Rochdale.

2. The new station at Golborne will need an hourly service and this has been quoted as running from Wigan to Stalybridge.

3. They're building new turnback sidings at Manchester Victoria for that very reason. And the service from Leeds won't terminate at Victoria, it'll extend to Salford Crescent's new P3 as with the other Calder Valley services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They're building new turnback sidings at Manchester Victoria for that very reason.

When will these new turnback sidings be fully operational?

 

[Peter A]

When will these new turnback sidings be fully operational?

By the end of the year supposedly

 

[Starmill]

The Wigan to Victoria via Golborne is sparsely used currently, so surely it makes more sense to have more capacity on the routes via Atherton and Bolton, which people use a lot more.

It's electric rolling stock. It cannot go via Atherton... It also cannot go via Westhoughton because this service group is not being split at Wigan.

 

[Halish Railway]

It's electric rolling stock. It cannot go via Atherton... It also cannot go via Westhoughton because this service group is not being split at Wigan.

And I’d add that it can also give Ashton-under-Lyne, Eccles and Patricroft a more frequent service providing that it stops at all of those stations, those currently being served by an hourly service as opposed to twice an hour on the Atherton and Westhoughton lines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's electric rolling stock. It cannot go via Atherton... It also cannot go via Westhoughton because this service group is not being split at Wigan.

It's also presumably in preparation for the future Golborne station.

 

[Manutd1999]

Based on TfN's state of play for the north it looks as though the following will occur:
-Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton (curtailed from Southport)
-Southport to Manchester Oxford Road via Bolton retained (eventually extended to the Airport following Oxford Road remodelling)
-Headbolt Lane to Blackburn via Atherton retained
-Soithport to Victoria via Atherton (replacing Leeds to Wigan service)

It's been stated elsewhere that the Leeds to Wigan service will be split at Victoria (and along with the other Leeds to Victoria Calder Valley services will terminate at Salford Crescent). Furthermore, an additional electrified service will be introduced between Wigan and Stalybridge via Golborne.

A reasonable compromise but it all seems a bit messy. 2ph Southport-Rochdale (DMU) and 2ph Wigan-Stalybridge (EMU) would be a neater solution.....

 

[Starmill]

A reasonable compromise but it all seems a bit messy. 2ph Southport-Rochdale (DMU) and 2ph Wigan-Stalybridge (EMU) would be a neater solution.....

Would offer more capacity, better performance, and reduce utilisation of DMUs and 769s as well. However this does not fit with the Leeds and Blackburn services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would offer more capacity, better performance, and reduce utilisation of DMUs and 769s as well. However this does not fit with the Leeds and Blackburn services.

It'd also either mean the added cost of 3tph on the Atherton, one of which would be off pattern unless you want a 20-40 split on the Southports (or Headbolt would just be a shuttle), and of course OPSTA* would whinge about the loss of Castlefield and they can be quite loud.

* Ormskirk, Preston and Southport Travellers' Association

 

[amahy]

A reasonable compromise but it all seems a bit messy. 2ph Southport-Rochdale (DMU) and 2ph Wigan-Stalybridge (EMU) would be a neater solution.....

The problem with this is both of the Southport trains would go to the same place, which isn't very good for passengers. It would also result in a Blackburn - Blackburn loop serviceh having to operate, which is again, not ideal. I personally think the plan is fine, just don't see the need to split Leeds to Southport at Victoria, when a through service from the Calder Valley would be well received.

 

[Starmill]

The problem with this is both of the Southport trains would go to the same place, which isn't very good for passengers.

It's also not good for passengers to stretch a limited, aging DMU fleet so thinly that you end up with two cars on peak services in one of the biggest cities in the country, while there's some flex in the EMU fleet that could ameliorate that. However that's the strong likelihood of the current plan. To say nothing of the shocking availability of the 769s and the unlikeliness of any improvements yielding from the current works.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also not good for passengers to stretch a limited, aging DMU fleet so thinly that you end up with two cars on peak services in one of the biggest cities in the country, while there's some flex in the EMU fleet that could ameliorate that. However that's the strong likelihood of the current plan. To say nothing of the shocking availability of the 769s and the unlikeliness of any improvements yielding from the current works.

Though equally there's a stack of 158s about to become available from Wales, which sent to Northern would solve the DMU shortage. Though no doubt they'll just be scrapped instead.

 

[Starmill]

I personally think the plan is fine, just don't see the need to split Leeds to Southport at Victoria, when a through service from the Calder Valley would be well received.

Leeds - Southport is too far to go for performance reasons, given the turnaround time at Leeds is fixed and it would be going back to a short one at Southport, as it was the last time it ran.

 

[Zomboid]

The problem with this is both of the Southport trains would go to the same place, which isn't very good for passengers. It would also result in a Blackburn - Blackburn loop serviceh having to operate, which is again, not ideal. I personally think the plan is fine, just don't see the need to split Leeds to Southport at Victoria, when a through service from the Calder Valley would be well received.

Is it really a major downside for trains to run to the same destinations? Is there a lot of cross Manchester traffic? I mean, fair enough if there are lots of people from Southport who want to go to Rochdale and an equally large group who want to go to Stalybridge or whatever it was, but I suspect most people on those routes are going to/from Manchester.
Trying to run an everywhere to everywhere else service pattern is a great way to create unreliability.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it really a major downside for trains to run to the same destinations? Is there a lot of cross Manchester traffic? I mean, fair enough if there are lots of people from Southport who want to go to Rochdale and an equally large group who want to go to Stalybridge or whatever it was, but I suspect most people on those routes are going to/from Manchester.
Trying to run an everywhere to everywhere else service pattern is a great way to create unreliability.

The thing that Southport passengers shout for is Castlefield. They largely don't care where it goes after that. Victoria is seen as second-rate, and indeed it is as a station (though the way Manchester City Centre is evolving it's not quite as in the sticks as it was).

I suspect Southport passengers would accept a drop to 1tph if it meant it could go to Piccadilly and was long enough to ensure a seat.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The thing that Southport passengers shout for is Castlefield. They largely don't care where it goes after that.

Where will I be able to view the comments from Southport passengers to which you refer to above?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where will I be able to view the comments from Southport passengers to which you refer to above?

While they seem to have been quiet of late (hopefully not due to something like health issues) OPSTA's materials would be worth a read on this matter: https://opsta.chessck.co.uk/

(Not quoted because I'm referring the OP to the whole website and not a specific article thereon).

 

[Halish Railway]

A reasonable compromise but it all seems a bit messy. 2ph Southport-Rochdale (DMU) and 2ph Wigan-Stalybridge (EMU) would be a neater solution.....

I feel that if the Southport to Manchester Oxford Road service got into Hindley just a few minutes ahead of the Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton service and if the Southport to Manchester Victoria via Atherton service got into Salford Crescent just a few minutes ahead of a service that goes through the Castlefield corridor then what is proposed could ensure a good balance between frequency and the number of destinations served by providing one direct service per hour and one connecting itinerary per hour with a short interchange time and same platform change for various journeys.

 

[amahy]

Leeds - Southport is too far to go for performance reasons, given the turnaround time at Leeds is fixed and it would be going back to a short one at Southport, as it was the last time it ran.

They are always skipping stops as it is with having a 50 minute turnaround at Wigan, so I don’t think having a shorter turnaround would ultimately change much.

 

[Manutd1999]

What about 2ph Stalybridge-Bolton-Wigan (EMU stopper), 2ph Rochdale-Wigan (DMU stopper, one extending to Headbolt Ln), then 1ph Oxford Road to Southport (DMU, limited stop along the Atherton Line)?

Southport would get 1ph semi-fast to Castlefield and easy connections at Wigan/Hindley for services to Victoria. There could be an additional Southport-Wigan shuttle if frequency is an issue.

 

[amahy]

What about 2ph Stalybridge-Bolton-Wigan (EMU stopper), 2ph Rochdale-Wigan (DMU stopper, one extending to Headbolt Ln), then 1ph Oxford Road to Southport (DMU, limited stop along the Atherton Line)?

Southport would get 1ph semi-fast to Castlefield and easy connections at Wigan/Hindley for services to Victoria. There could be an additional Southport-Wigan shuttle if frequency is an issue.

Where would the Manchester - Clitheroe/Blackburn via Bolton services go from?

 

[Manutd1999]

Where would the Manchester - Clitheroe/Blackburn via Bolton services go from?

They could terminate at Victoria if/when these new sidings are built to the east.

Alternatively, they could run back to Blackburn via Rochdale. I know there are performance risks for circular routes but if the trains terminated at Blackburn before operating back along the reverse route it wouldn't be a true 'circular' service.

 

[geoffk]

Based on TfN's state of play for the north it looks as though the following will occur:
-Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton (curtailed from Southport)

That's Wigan NW then, not Wallgate, as presumably there is sufficient electric stock to operate it. Better for onward connections too.

 

[Starmill]

They are always skipping stops as it is with having a 50 minute turnaround at Wigan, so I don’t think having a shorter turnaround would ultimately change much.

The Taskforce concluded that Leeds - Southport won't be returning in its previous form for performance reasons, so unfortunately, that's that for the time being.

 

[Halish Railway]

The Taskforce concluded that Leeds - Southport won't be returning in its previous form for performance reasons, so unfortunately, that's that for the time being.

I’m assuming as well that they don’t have enough 158s to ensure that all services are worked by 3 or 4 car long 158s. Certainly having trains of that length and performance is incredibly useful for the congested route between Manchester Victoria and Leeds.

 

[amahy]

I’m assuming as well that they don’t have enough 158s to ensure that all services are worked by 3 or 4 car long 158s. Certainly having trains of that length and performance is incredibly useful for the congested route between Manchester Victoria and Leeds.

The line doesn't make sense as a 158 operated line anyway, as there are frequent stops. It would be welcome if 150s were used either instead of, or together with 158s.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The line doesn't make sense as a 158 operated line anyway, as there are frequent stops. It would be welcome if 150s were used either instead of, or together with 158s.

I don't think there's going to be much difference between a 158 and a 156 on those terms. Almost every train on the Atherton line has a 156 or 158 in its formation.

Of the 10 Headbolt Lane diagrams, today, 8 of them are 150+156 and only 2 are 150+150

There aren't enough 158s, but there aren't enough 150s or 156s either! (and the 769s are mostly to blame for that)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One might well ask when the time period will be when definite official routings will be officially announced.