Wigan playing at Wembley: no late enough train back for Wigan fans

[JamesRowden]

Unless it was requested, VT should not be expected to put on additional services ad-hoc otherwise if no one uses them then there's a bill to pay with no way of recouping the money. At least with a charter it is guaranteed to be used. Plus the available paths and trains would have to be taken into consideration

FGW did for last year's League Cup Final between Cardiff and Liverpool (it was an extra service rather than an extra late service as would have been required for Wigan).

 

[Oswyntail]

....
Unless it was requested, VT should not be expected to put on additional services ad-hoc otherwise if no one uses them then there's a bill to pay with no way of recouping the money. At least with a charter it is guaranteed to be used. Plus the available paths and trains would have to be taken into consideration

If the paths and stock availability allowed it, I would have thought a commercially minded company could have seen an opportunity - sell a "Final day out" ticket package, and put on extra/extended services. Entice people to sample the railways, of whom some might become regulars. A commercial risk, perhaps, but isn't that what private enterprise does?:roll:

 

[John07]

The location of Wembley gets a bit of stick however I found no problems for the Semi-Final yesterday. We had to get the 19:00 train from King's Cross to Edinburgh.

We left our seats on the final whistle at 17:55. By 18:05 we were at Wembley Park station. Within five minutes we were on a shuttle to Baker Street arriving at around 18:20 and caught a Hammersmith and City train. We arrived at King's Cross underground station by 18:30 and were on the Edinburgh train at 18:35.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Living near Rickmansworth, I notice that an increasing number of Northern travelling fans for Wembley matches drive here, park in the local streets for free, then get the Metropolitan line straight into Wembley. After the game they come back, have a bite to eat/drink, and off they go again. As it's so easy to get to the M25/M1 from here, and with the difficulty getting some trains home and road /parking issues around Wembley, I can see why they do it.

A fair few of the non-league clubs along the Met have realised the potential of offering their facilities to supporters from the North visiting Wembley. For last years League One play-off final, Wealdstone F.C. offered their stadium and clubhouse for Huddersfield fans to park their cars, have a few drinks and (thanks to the lovely weather) a barbeque, before the short walk to the Met. No doubt this boosted Wealdstone's coffers a healthy amount as well as saving several thousand fans the stress and cost of parking nearer to Wembley. I imagine other teams may have had similar arrangements with SUFC Supporters' groups- surely a similar arrangement will take place for Wigan and MCFC fans.

 

[AndyHudds]

A fair few of the non-league clubs along the Met have realised the potential of offering their facilities to supporters from the North visiting Wembley. For last years League One play-off final, Wealdstone F.C. offered their stadium and clubhouse for Huddersfield fans to park their cars, have a few drinks and (thanks to the lovely weather) a barbeque, before the short walk to the Met. No doubt this boosted Wealdstone's coffers a healthy amount as well as saving several thousand fans the stress and cost of parking nearer to Wembley. I imagine other teams may have had similar arrangements with SUFC Supporters' groups- surely a similar arrangement will take place for Wigan and MCFC fans.

Cracking day out, high as a kite all day I was. Although we did have a special that day from Huddersfield and Grand Central were very pleased to have us on board from Brighouse and back again!!

I disagree on Wembley, its become the spiritual home of English football, a cracking day out for the fans. I just don't think it would have the same appeal if we had to go to Birmingham for cup finals!!!

Getting to and from the stadium by rail is no problem whatsoever, even with massive crowds.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Cracking day out, high as a kite all day I was.

I disagree on Wembley, its become the spiritual home of English football, a cracking day out for the fans. I just don't think it would have the same appeal if we had to go to Birmingham for cup finals!!!

Getting to and from the stadium by rail is no problem whatsoever, even with massive crowds.

Wembley isn't too bad really- comparing last summers' experience at Wembley to the previous year when we were shunted off to Old Trafford there's simply no comparison (the reults of the respective games may be a factor though!)- For the Old Trafford final TPE ran longer trains than usual, though Northern were restricted by short platforms. The overcrowding on the Metrolink heading to the game made the Met seem positively luxurious by comparison, and the seeming reluctance of Northern to run Shuttles to the Old Trafford platform was bizarre (unless this was on Police advice).

Considering the amount spent on the Wembley rebuild though, it's a shame that there was no provision made at either Wembley Central and/or Wembley Stadium stations for additional platforms for specials. Twickenham after all has a couple of bays for Rugby specials (though I'm not sure if they're still used).

 

[northwichcat]

Well there was a daily (it might even have been Friday only) London Midland service from Birmingham-Preston via the WCML until December 2008, and IIRC it used 350s, so I'm fairly certain they'll be cleared. Like you implied however, I doubt the route remains on any driver's routecard.

It was daily, CT wanted to operate more Preston services but there were pathing issues in the Wolverhampton area. CT were reported as planning to move towards adding Preston portions on to some Liverpool trains but that never went ahead.

CT and Silverlink also jointly introduced a daily Liverpool-London via Trent Valley service.

Both services went in the Dec 08 timetable change.

 

[pitdiver]

A fair few of the non-league clubs along the Met have realised the potential of offering their facilities to supporters from the North visiting Wembley. For last years League One play-off final, Wealdstone F.C. offered their stadium and clubhouse for Huddersfield fans to park their cars, have a few drinks and (thanks to the lovely weather) a barbeque, before the short walk to the Met. No doubt this boosted Wealdstone's coffers a healthy amount as well as saving several thousand fans the stress and cost of parking nearer to Wembley. I imagine other teams may have had similar arrangements with SUFC Supporters' groups- surely a similar arrangement will take place for Wigan and MCFC fans.

When I worked on the Met the Rugby League Cup Final always attracted a large number of fans who would park locally and travel on the Met to Wembley Park.

Stanmore was always a popular station as I think it had a very large Car Park.

 

[LuSiVe]

For Chesterfield's trip to Wembley for the Paint Pot Cup Final last year a good number parked at Harrow Borough who we had knocked out of the FA Cup at their place the previous season.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It seemed to be absolutely no problem for Virgin to run virtually empty trains to Liverpool and Manchester till the early hours during the olympics. Football seems to be a different matter.

 

[Geezertronic]

It seemed to be absolutely no problem for Virgin to run virtually empty trains to Liverpool and Manchester till the early hours during the olympics. Football seems to be a different matter.

Wasn't there a financial incentive to do that though?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It seemed to be absolutely no problem for Virgin to run virtually empty trains to Liverpool and Manchester till the early hours during the olympics. Football seems to be a different matter.

Though in that case the extras were presumably funded by the ODA. I imagine without said funding in place, Virgin would want to be fairly certain that running extras will be worth their while. Lord Coe's funding for the olympics must've been set up in such a way that loadings weren't an issue.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Though in that case the extras were presumably funded by the ODA. , Virgin .

We all paid for them in other words.

 

[Flamingo]

If the paths and stock availability allowed it, I would have thought a commercially minded company could have seen an opportunity - sell a "Final day out" ticket package, and put on extra/extended services. Entice people to sample the railways, of whom some might become regulars. A commercial risk, perhaps, but isn't that what private enterprise does?:roll:

Or does a cost-benefit analysis and decides whether it is commercially viable or not.

 

[island]

It seemed to be absolutely no problem for Virgin to run virtually empty trains to Liverpool and Manchester till the early hours during the olympics. Football seems to be a different matter.

That's because everyone was banned from talking down the olympics or saying or acting against them in any way at all.

 

[telstarbox]

More people went to the Olympics each day than a capacity crowd at Wembley, and the events finished late at night which is why the late trains were put on.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

More people went to the Olympics each day than a capacity crowd at Wembley, and the events finished late at night which is why the late trains were put on.

There were trains running to the early hours in all directions not many of which were full for the whole of the olympics. This is a one off event with more than half the stadium capacity heading in the same direction yet no additional services.

 

[Oswyntail]

Or does a cost-benefit analysis and decides whether it is commercially viable or not.

Of course. But do you honestly think that has been done? And that with several thousand extra potential passengers it could not be made to pay?

 

[Darren R]

If the paths and stock availability allowed it, I would have thought a commercially minded company could have seen an opportunity - sell a "Final day out" ticket package, and put on extra/extended services. Entice people to sample the railways, of whom some might become regulars. A commercial risk, perhaps, but isn't that what private enterprise does?:roll:

The trouble is it's nowhere near as simple as that though. For starters FA Cup Final tickets are divvied up by the FA well in advance of them knowing who's going to be playing, with the lion's share going to corporates and all the FA members and clubs involved in the competition. Anyone wanting to organise such a "Final Day Out" would have to buy the match tickets en-bloc on spec well in advance, and trust that when which two clubs are playing is known that they will be able to sell the tickets and run and fill a train too. And by then it's pretty short notice to be trying to say to NR "can we run a train please?"

But of course in today's railway there is very little commercial incentive for Virgin to run extra trains. Assuming they have the stock and train crew available and there is a suitable path or two, they then have to pay said train crew and the track access charges. Even that's not so simple - if Virgin only have an 11 car Pendo available that costs them more to run than a 9 car or Voyager.

Most fans wanting to - or having no other option than - travel by train will do so whether extra services are run or not. It's cheaper not to bother rather than run some extra on spec only to find they're carting very expensive fresh air around the network.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Special trains can take months to organize, so the prospects of anybody organizing extra workings on the WCML at a couple of weeks notice are remote.

Virgin knew about the Olympics years in advance.

There should of course be regular late night trains from Euston to say Crewe so football fans in the north can get to midweek England matches and their own clubs' away games in the capital.

Could they not put a few seating coaches on the back of the Caledonian sleepers?

 

[Eagle]

Could they not put a few seating coaches on the back of the Caledonian sleepers?

Which seating coaches would these be?

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Which seating coaches would these be?

I don't really care - any they could lay their hands on.

 

[rebmcr]

A couple of Pacers, with an air hose sellotaped along the side to a brake van at the back!

 

[Eagle]

I don't really care - any they could lay their hands on.

Who are you referring to as "they"? I hardly think Scotrail would care about returning passengers from an English football match :P

(Plus of course neither sleeper normally stops at Wigan.)

 

[tjl599]

The other aspect in the lack of charter trains may be due to the National Express and Wembley deal... Whilst, coach is not the way the majority of fans would like to travel to a game like this it is worth bearing in mind that pressure may be applied to the clubs through Wembley/FA not to run charter trains as I suspect National Express have paid a reasonable sum to be the travel partner of Wembley. A quick look on the National Express website shows they are in the process of deciding what to operate for this fixture 'FA Cup Final - coming soon - Travel direct to the gates of Wembley Stadium for all the action in the FA Cup Final.'.

 

[northwichcat]

Though in that case the extras were presumably funded by the ODA. I imagine without said funding in place, Virgin would want to be fairly certain that running extras will be worth their while. Lord Coe's funding for the olympics must've been set up in such a way that loadings weren't an issue.

If you look at where passengers go after alighting trains from London at stations like Crewe and Stockport, a lot of them transfer to local trains to reach their final destination. Without the connecting local trains Virgin would probably lose more than half of their passengers. The arrival times of the Olympic extras would have been after the last local trains had departed so were effectively useless to a lot of people.

 

[NI 271]

If you look at where passengers go after alighting trains from London at stations like Crewe and Stockport, a lot of them transfer to local trains to reach their final destination. Without the connecting local trains Virgin would probably lose more than half of their passengers. The arrival times of the Olympic extras would have been after the last local trains had departed so were effectively useless to a lot of people.

I worked there dealing with arriving coaches from all over the country, and the only busy ones were ones from the park and ride sites, one (which had come from Preston and was only in service one-way) had two drivers and ONE passenger. Many others had passenger loadings in single figures, and many more services simply didn't operate as there were NO passengers at all for them.

I note the FA has today announced a 1715 kick off for the final. *shakes head*

TV money 1-0 supporters. A very familiar scoreline.

 

[175001]

Also once at Manchester the Northern Rail services to Wigan will be 2 or 4 car. They wouldn't be able to cope with several hundred people all turning up for a Northern Rail train.

Last Wallgate will be long gone from Piccadilly and it'll be a sprint to get to Victoria to get the last one via Atherton at 23:20!

 

[NI 271]

More people went to the Olympics each day than a capacity crowd at Wembley, and the events finished late at night which is why the late trains were put on.

Not by as large a number as you might think, certainly less than 20% more, and that was spread across many venues (including 'general admissions' to Olympic Park), and not all of whom left at the same time as those attending a football match would.

 

[Flamingo]

Of course. But do you honestly think that has been done? And that with several thousand extra potential passengers it could not be made to pay?

FgW regularly run football specials from Swansea, it is not unknown for them to have 60-80 people on board...