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Wigan playing at Wembley: no late enough train back for Wigan fans

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Essexman

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The police decide how many officers they want to deploy, which from my experience of often far more than are needed, then expect clubs to pay for them.
Clubs have to pay for police in the ground - even if they don't want them there. Police can insist they have a presence, even if most feel it not necessary, then charge for it.
 
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Flamingo

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Well, from a Guard's perspective I can confidently say you won't find many railway staff shedding any tears for the footie fans, a trainload of drunks nobody's idea of a good day at the office, and sadly that is all too often the lasting memory despite all the fan who insist they do behave. Surely the simple solution is for the football clubs to charter their own transport, so every ticket comes with a seat on a coach, job done. It wont work for everybody of course, but the majority from the clubs' home towns would use it I'm sure. It then has the benefit of keeping most of the aggro in one place, sandwiched nicely between the escorting police, and normal decent people get to travel on weekend trains without the vile 'football experience' they so often have to endure.

Of course, sadly we are talking about the same morally rotten outfits who will pay spoiled brats millions but will go to court to avoid contributing to the essential police presence around their grounds, as they don't appear to think that it is their responsibility to clean up the mess they regularly cause. So the chances of them giving even the slightest damn about the problems their cashcow mobs cause on their merry travels are slim indeed so long as they've had the ticket money out of their pockets, but we can always hope.

I'm not a fan of football...
Good point well made...
 

Greenback

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The police decide how many officers they want to deploy, which from my experience of often far more than are needed, then expect clubs to pay for them.

It may be more than is needed, and I'm sure that the police hope that it more than is needed, but they have to plan for the worse case scenario.

Clubs have to pay for police in the ground - even if they don't want them there. Police can insist they have a presence, even if most feel it not necessary, then charge for it.

I don't know why clubs would not want a police presence at all. Most events that attract crowds of people require a police presence, even my local Summer carnival, that is attended by 4-500 people has some police officers in attendance too.

Can you imagine the outcry if something happened and there was only a small number of police there, or even none at all, and the police later said 'Well, the club didn't want us there'?

And as for the club paying for policing, why shouldn't they? It is a multi billion industry that sees frankly ludicrous amounts of money being spent on players, and such an industry really should not be entitled to free policing.
 

greatkingrat

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Would Virgin have any legal obligations to provide onward transport if 2,000 football fans turned up at Euston for the 2100 to Manchester and they were not all able to fit on the train?
 

tony_mac

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I don't know why clubs would not want a police presence at all. Most events that attract crowds of people require a police presence, even my local Summer carnival, that is attended by 4-500 people has some police officers in attendance too.
Because they don't need them, and can call them if needed?
e.g., http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/no-trouble-at-police-free-scotland-v-estonia-game-1-2779583

Does the summer carnival have to pay for the police?
And as for the club paying for policing, why shouldn't they? It is a multi billion industry that sees frankly ludicrous amounts of money being spent on players, and such an industry really should not be entitled to free policing.

I don't think it's really fair to lump the entire industry together like that.
The wages of Manchester United players is not really relevant to Accrington Stanley's policing bill.

You could also argue that these ludicrous amount of wages involves ludicrous amounts of tax being paid, which more than covers the policing bill.

But, I can perfectly see why a train operating company wouldn't want to go out of their way to make a train available for a late-night football crowd. It wouldn't take much damage to the train to cost a lot more than any possible profit.
 

Flamingo

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Would Virgin have any legal obligations to provide onward transport if 2,000 football fans turned up at Euston for the 2100 to Manchester and they were not all able to fit on the train?

Any that couldn't fit would be entitled to catch the next available service <D
 

northwichcat

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I don't know why clubs would not want a police presence at all. Most events that attract crowds of people require a police presence, even my local Summer carnival, that is attended by 4-500 people has some police officers in attendance too.

I think the sports club could claim they already employ their own security personnel and would be happy to employ more if they weren't required to have a police presence.

Television studios and nightclubs with a few hundred people attending (similar number to your summer carnival) use their own staff to deal with problems on site, who can call in the police if crimes are committed. For a one off event or a once a year event it's probably more cost and time effective to over police the event opposed to train security staff.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Television studios and nightclubs with a few hundred people attending (similar number to your summer carnival) use their own staff to deal with problems on site, who can call in the police if crimes are committed. For a one off event or a once a year event it's probably more cost and time effective to over police the event opposed to train security staff.

Certain large security companies with fully-badged trained staff already provide security for other short-period events such as Wimbledon and the Grand National.
 

Greenback

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Does the summer carnival have to pay for the police?

Yes, according to my local councillor, policing is one of the costs of the carnival, though I'm not sure if the cost is because roads have to be closed as well.

I don't think it's really fair to lump the entire industry together like that.
The wages of Manchester United players is not really relevant to Accrington Stanley's policing bill.

The costs of wages across the industry are inflated when the top players can command millions. It happened in rugby union, when the sport turned professional, and I see no reason why the massive increase in salaries (and income) in the top tier would not have filtered down to the lower tiers too.

It would be interesting to compare the salaries of players in League Two now with those in the old Fourth Division thirty years ago.

You could also argue that these ludicrous amount of wages involves ludicrous amounts of tax being paid, which more than covers the policing bill.

You could argue that, but you would have to take into account players registering themselves as offshore companies, and avoiding tax like Amazon and Starbucks have been.

But, I can perfectly see why a train operating company wouldn't want to go out of their way to make a train available for a late-night football crowd. It wouldn't take much damage to the train to cost a lot more than any possible profit.

Money is the bottom line in pretty much every industry these days. I think that the best solution is for the club or supporters association to charter a train, with a financial guarantee to cover possible damage.

I think the sports club could claim they already employ their own security personnel and would be happy to employ more if they weren't required to have a police presence.

How can private security firms do what the police do outside the stadium? Locally, the provide crowd control on public streets, ensure that traffic is not allowed to park in residential streets around the area, to name but two. Security staff may be able to be deployed within the stadium area, but they don't have the powers to be out and about around the ground.

Television studios and nightclubs with a few hundred people attending (similar number to your summer carnival) use their own staff to deal with problems on site, who can call in the police if crimes are committed. For a one off event or a once a year event it's probably more cost and time effective to over police the event opposed to train security staff.

As I understand, nightclubs have to contribute towards local policing costs associated with their business activities, and quite rightly so. TV studios don't normally attract big crowds with a history of violence, and do not have so much impact on the area that they are situated in as football grounds.

The local carnival does have effect on the local area, and I am quite happy for the police to be there to keep the peace as a visible deterrent to anti social behaviour. I am also happy for the carnival to pay towards the policing of the event, and to contribute to it through the entry fee.

Certain large security companies with fully-badged trained staff already provide security for other short-period events such as Wimbledon and the Grand National.

I have no objection to security staff working at the venue, this already happens with the employment of match day stewards (such as at Parc y Scarlets, where I applied for such a position once and was told I needed to have an SIA licence or work towards it). There should also be police in attendance.

I do have sympathy with the view that policing levels may be too high, but I can't agree that a police presence at large scale events is unnecessary.
 

ivanhoe

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There's always issues when large volumes of passengers need to travel long distances to events like the FA Cup Final. Basically the railway has to make choices: allow TOCS to cancel other services to allow the masses to travel. Or let National Express transport them which they will be happy to do so,but in doing so, don't preach about the railways being the answer to our travel solutions. I find it sad that the railway cannot go the extra mile for these events but it emphasises the importance of our motorways, and the farce of our current obsession with carbon footprint.
 

Cherry_Picker

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It would be interesting to compare the salaries of players in League Two now with those in the old Fourth Division thirty years ago.


The bottom division of professional football has always been pretty close to the national average salary if these figures are to be believed:

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(article)

The problem with football salaries is that the figures are always skewed by the highest earners. It's bigger in the Premier League where blokes like Wayne Rooney are being paid £200k+ a week which is probably ten times the amount that people at clubs like, say, Reading or Norwich are getting but even in the lower leagues there will always be a club or two which pays big wages in order to get out of the division and that distorts the average.
 

Eagle

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The problem with football salaries is that the figures are always skewed by the highest earners. It's bigger in the Premier League where blokes like Wayne Rooney are being paid £200k+ a week which is probably ten times the amount that people at clubs like, say, Reading or Norwich are getting but even in the lower leagues there will always be a club or two which pays big wages in order to get out of the division and that distorts the average.

Although that's true to some extent in the national figures; the wage distribution has a very long and thick tail, as statisticians would say.

The mean average salary in the UK is about £36,000, but the median is only £21,000.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Although that's true to some extent in the national figures; the wage distribution has a very long and thick tail, as statisticians would say. The mean average salary in the UK is about £36,000, but the median is only £21,000.

Just to give a historical perspective, I feel that once again I am giving my age away, but I was a sixth-former when the maximum wage for professional footballers of £20 per week was abolished in 1961.
 

AndyHudds

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Clubs should not have to pay for policing outside their property, its the police's responsibility to keep the streets safe from crime not football clubs. Simple as that, there would appear to be a storm brewing in West Yorkshire between clubs and the police force. Leeds United have already won a court case against them over paying for policing off their property and my club, Huddersfield Town had a wrangle over our game with Hull City in which the police placed ridiculous sanctions on the Hull fans attending the game.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Clubs should not have to pay for policing outside their property, its the police's responsibility to keep the streets safe from crime not football clubs. Simple as that, there would appear to be a storm brewing in West Yorkshire between clubs and the police force. Leeds United have already won a court case against them over paying for policing off their property and my club, Huddersfield Town had a wrangle over our game with Hull City in which the police placed ridiculous sanctions on the Hull fans attending the game.

Yet prior to the Hull game there was a peaceful protest about this held in Huddersfield town centre attended by fans of both clubs: Just goes to show, there'll always be a few idiots but by and large, treating football fans (or any other group) like human beings will cause them to behave better than herding them like wild animals!
 

pitdiver

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Mentioned earlier was a post about fans missing last trains home. A few years ago I was on a PRIVATE charter to Blackpool Illuminations. Just as we about to pull away the brakes came on and a number of Football Fans were forced onto OUR train. They had missed their service back to wherever so the authorities in Blackpool thought they would stick them on
OUR service just to get them out of their hair.
 

Essexman

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Many football matches are played without police in the ground - even Premier League games may only have police in the control box. Football crowd behaviour is (usually) very differnet to that 25 years ago - a football match is not, as many people seem to think, a riot waiting to happen.
 

sheff1

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When rail staff are criticised on here the offending poster(s) are quite rightly advised not to tar all staff with the same brush. Rather disappointing then that some seem to be queuing up on this thread to tar all football supporters with the same brush - 'trainloads of drunks' apparently.

I have seen plenty of drunks on trains who have no apparent connection with football support - they are certainly not travelling to/from a match. Equally, just yesterday, I travelled from Derby to Sheffield on a train busy with returning Newcastle United fans, not one of whom seemed drunk.
 

John07

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I wonder if the kick-off time is anything to do with the sponsorship of the FA and Wembley by National Express? Put it at a time when it is difficult to get a train back and drive business to National Express.

I know several Manchester City fans who are reservations on the 9:00 pm train from Euston but have booked tickets with Megabus or National Express as a back-up in the event of extra time and penalties.

We travelled back to Edinburgh on the 7:00 pm from King's Cross after the semi final last Sunday and made it with 25 minutes to spare. It took 40 minutes from leaving our seats on the final whistle at 5:55 pm to getting on the train at King's Cross. The 9:00 pm train should not be a problem even with extra time and penalties.
 

Bevan Price

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Are you suggesting all engineering work is cancelled on the second Saturday in May in case someone from somewhere may need to get to Wembley?
Yes. Why not? They could use those weekends for work on secondary routes rather than the WCMl, ECML, MML or GWML, etc.

In 7 of the past 10 Cup Finals, at least one team has come from somewhere served by the WCML If NR are incapable of scheduling engineering work to avoid major sporting events, one has to wonder about their "management quality". Repeating my previous comment. Does the railway exist for the convenience of the customer, or the convenience of NR management ??
 
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61653 HTAFC

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I wonder if the kick-off time is anything to do with the sponsorship of the FA and Wembley by National Express? Put it at a time when it is difficult to get a train back and drive business to National Express.

I know several Manchester City fans who are reservations on the 9:00 pm train from Euston but have booked tickets with Megabus or National Express as a back-up in the event of extra time and penalties.

We travelled back to Edinburgh on the 7:00 pm from King's Cross after the semi final last Sunday and made it with 25 minutes to spare. It took 40 minutes from leaving our seats on the final whistle at 5:55 pm to getting on the train at King's Cross. The 9:00 pm train should not be a problem even with extra time and penalties.

That'll be a pain to any fans hoping to book coach tickets as their only possibility... :roll:
 

Mintona

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Yes. Why not? They could use those weekends for work on secondary routes rather than the WCMl, ECML, MML or GWML, etc.

In 7 of the past 10 Cup Finals, at least one team has come from somewhere served by the WCML If NR are incapable of scheduling engineering work to avoid major sporting events, one has to wonder about their "management quality". Repeating my previous comment. Does the railway exist for the convenience of the customer, or the convenience of NR management ??

The customer of course. You know, the ones that pay £6/7/8/9k a year for their season ticket to travel to and from work every day, and the ones Network Rail plan their engineering work around so it doesn't affect them.

And if they can accommodate the other passengers who travel by train once a year, pay £8 each way and end up trashing the trains then they will. But they're not the priority.
 

pitdiver

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I don't think National Express sponsor the FA any more. But as far as I am aware the still have a connection with Wembley Stadium as a Coach Destination. (Yes I know Wembley is owned by the FA)
 

Darren R

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Yes. Why not? They could use those weekends for work on secondary routes rather than the WCMl, ECML, MML or GWML, etc.

In 7 of the past 10 Cup Finals, at least one team has come from somewhere served by the WCML If NR are incapable of scheduling engineering work to avoid major sporting events, one has to wonder about their "management quality". Repeating my previous comment. Does the railway exist for the convenience of the customer, or the convenience of NR management ??

758 clubs competed in this year's FA Cup, virtually all of whom will be based in a town on a railway line - in that context define "secondary routes."

Engineering work is planned two years in advance; I'm not entirely convinced that refusing to sit down with a list of clubs that will probably be playing in the FA Cup two years down the line in order to decide which of those clubs stands a chance of making it to the semis or final in order to decide which lines are prohibited from having engineering work throughout the end of April and the first half of May (because we don't know two years in advance when the FA will schedule the matches) because some footy fans may be inconvenienced should the FA decide to stage the kick-off at a silly time is necessarily indicative of the "management quality" at Network Rail.

On the other hand, the FA were warned in advance by Virgin that a late kick-off for the Final should any Northwest clubs be involved would present a problem, and I doubt they were the only TOC to do so. Despite this the FA chose to ignore those warnings. It is important to remember that if the match was kicking off at a sensible time for fans this whole thread wouldn't even exist.

Personally I think a more apt question would be this: does football exist for the convenience of the fans, or the convenience of the FA? I do not work on the railways but I did used to be a football fan. The reason I'm not now is because I long since tired of fans being taken for a ride by those who run the game. This is just the latest in an ever growing list of examples.
 
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The customer of course. You know, the ones that pay £6/7/8/9k a year for their season ticket to travel to and from work every day, and the ones Network Rail plan their engineering work around so it doesn't affect them.

And if they can accommodate the other passengers who travel by train once a year, pay £8 each way and end up trashing the trains then they will. But they're not the priority.

Spot on
 

Bevan Price

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Personally I think a more apt question would be this: does football exist for the convenience of the fans, or the convenience of the FA? I do not work on the railways but I did used to be a football fan. The reason I'm not now is because I long since tired of fans being taken for a ride by those who run the game. This is just the latest in an ever growing list of examples.

No. Football exists for the convenience of Murdoch & other TV companies.
 

Darren R

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[citation needed]

A considerable proportion of towns in England do not have a railway station. Any actual figures?

No, the point was a general one and not rendered void by not quoting the exact numbers, and in any case I wasn't talking about towns in England without a railway station rather than towns with football clubs involved in the FA Cup without railway stations. Working down the league tables, the only English football league club in a town not served by rail is Fleetwood Town in League Two. That's 1.09% of the 92 league clubs. I would say that's the majority!

The point I was making is that with so many clubs involved it isn't realistic to expect Network Rail to start planning engineering works several years in advance based on who may or may not get to the semi finals of the FA Cup, when those matches will be played and what random kick off time the FA will decide at short notice.
 
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