Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[Open top 80]

They are but at speeds in towns probably not much difference, very little regeneration at low speeds.


I must be behind the times, Red Arrow routes that I knew were Leyland Nationals in London. Obviously not what's being referred to here! Not being local to the area what is Red Arrow referring to here?

It is the name for the express coach between Nottingham and Derby (Trent Barton) the old X52

 

[JonathanH]

It is the name for the express coach between Nottingham and Derby (Trent Barton) the old X52

When was it last the X52? It has been Red Arrow for a long time.

 

[Starmill]

I know of one operator who folded because they couldn't justify the expense, and used an Almex machine until the end.

Indeed. There are temporary registrations where no ticket machines are being used, because the operator doesn't even have any.

 

[Deerfold]

When was it last the X52? It has been Red Arrow for a long time.

It's a long time since it was the X52. When I lived in Nottingham from 1992 there was an hourly express service between Nottingham and Derby. Alternate hours it was a TransPeak, extending to Buxton (with 4 or 5 daily journeys through to Manchester) and the R1 just Nottingham to Derby (unrelated to the current trentbarton R1). If didn't run late evenings with around 4 journeys on a Sunday.

The X52 service number has been used more recently for a daily (at most) service from Nottingham and Derby to Alton Towers.

 

[Man of Kent]

Selling weekly tickets from the bus driver is barking mad. This has never been done in London, at least in living memory, is rarely (if ever) done in major cities in developed countries outside the UK and is not a serious way to run a service, unless you don't care how long bus journeys take.

It's worth noting that the London fare collection system was significantly more expensive to operate than in most of the UK. While it is difficult to find figures that apply only to the bus network, my memory from various conferences was that somewhere between 9% and 13% of Oyster revenue disappeared in costs. This was one reason why TfL was in the forefront of contactless bank card adoption, as that would lower these costs to something around 6%. Nonetheless, that was still about four times what Go-Ahead's Head of Revenue reckoned was reasonable for a provincial bus company.

Since that time, with the rise of Apps, I have no doubt provincial costs have gone up - one of the leading providers charges a percentage of every sale via the App, and both payment service provider and bank want their cut from an electronic/contactless transaction.

As others have pointed out, coupled to the cost of a ticket machine, an awful lot of the price of a ticket does not end up in the hands of the operator. Outsourcing this still further will reduce net income, whether it is a public or a private operator.

There is a 6 year old FoI request with several attachments, too long to reproduce here, which confirms some of these principles https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/cost_of_running_an_emv_ecosystem#incoming-1403871

 

[joieman]

What a ridiculous idea!

So, what if they do not have a weekend service to do that? I do not have one where I live, but I purchase in the app. Not everyone wants to/can use an app. Where I live most people do seem to use the app, but some people prefer the paper ticket.

It takes no more than 30 seconds to purchase the ticket. Anymore than that is either driver or passenger error, or software design issues.

The really time-consuming element is sticking the ticket in a sleeve to guarantee it'll last all week.

Cash fares are cheap to administer. I'll also make the point that some passengers (I refuse to call them customers!) actually only have cash . . . they are paid weekly in cash, and prefer that as they can budget easier that way. Not everyone has a smart phone, or can use computers . . . and dare I say that these folk are also predominately bus users.

That describes me perfectly... except that I actually take notes out of cashpoints and pay for shopping individually to collect enough change for a week of bus commuting!

 

[yorksrob]

Selling weekly tickets from the bus driver is barking mad. This has never been done in London, at least in living memory, is rarely (if ever) done in major cities in developed countries outside the UK and is not a serious way to run a service, unless you don't care how long bus journeys take.

Weekly passes were always available from the buses in Leeds. It was basically a normal bus ticket slapped in a peel back laminated card. Took no longer than any other bus ticket.

 

[8ace]

In continental europe even in little villages you have "TABAC" shops where you can get weekly bus passes and stuff. This doesnt really exist here but ypu could make it part of paypoint

I'm sure when I lived in London 25 years ago you could buy paper travelcards from corner chops etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

Weekly passes were always available from the buses in Leeds. It was basically a normal bus ticket slapped in a peel back laminated card. Took no longer than any other bus ticket.

Takes 5-10 seconds extra per passenger to do that. If we say 10, for 60 passengers that's ten additional minutes over the journey. That is significant.

 

[yorksrob]

Takes 5-10 seconds extra per passenger to do that. If we say 10, for 60 passengers that's ten additional minutes over the journey. That is significant.

Five at most. Insignificant in the context of crawling around in Leeds' traffic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Five at most. Insignificant in the context of crawling around in Leeds' traffic.

Seems to be the frankly bizarre, defeatist view of almost every bus manager outside London (the place with the worst traffic in the country by far). Fortunately London gets it - but why doesn't anyone outside it? Every second counts, and time is money.

 

[yorksrob]

Seems to be the frankly bizarre, defeatist view of almost every bus manager outside London (the place with the worst traffic in the country by far). Fortunately London gets it - but why doesn't anyone outside it? Every second counts, and time is money.

I don't see why. It gives people a quick, convenient way to buy their weekly pass when they need it.

 

[johncrossley]

Weekly passes were always available from the buses in Leeds. It was basically a normal bus ticket slapped in a peel back laminated card. Took no longer than any other bus ticket.

Always? Even in the days of Metrocards pre deregulation?

 

[renegademaster]

I'm sure when I lived in London 25 years ago you could buy paper travelcards from corner chops etc

You ccould but the oyster/ticket shops seemed to die out when contactless came in

 

[yorksrob]

Always? Even in the days of Metrocards pre deregulation?

Certainly from the early noughties.

 

[johncrossley]

You ccould but the oyster/ticket shops seemed to die out when contactless came in

Oyster Ticket Stops are still widespread. There are about 5 within about 10 minutes walk away from here.

Where can I top-up my Oyster card? - London TravelWatch

You can top up your Oyster card at stations, online and at Oyster Ticket Stops (usually a local convenience shop).

www.londontravelwatch.org.uk

says

There are currently 3,900 Oyster Ticket Stops

 

[LJA]

When I used the bus to commute in Leeds the selling of tickets definitely added a significant time to the overall journey. Especially when on some routes you seem to have a bus stop every 200m. It’s not just the printing, it’s the faffing around with change etc as well. On plenty of occasions it was actually quicker to wait for the next bus and let the first one hoover up all the passengers.

I assume it is a bit better now with the apps, flat fare and so on.

But of course what works best on busy urban routes may not be the most suitable solution everywhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see why. It gives people a quick, convenient way to buy their weekly pass when they need it.

You don't see why having buses run several minutes slower on a Monday than every other day of the week is a problem? Or that having buses run several minutes slower than necessary in general is costly for operators and inconvenient for passengers (and makes switching from car to bus less likely, because it's part of the reason cycling is faster than going by bus in most British cities)? Wow.

The mind really boggles about how this is understood in most other countries and in London but, almost uniquely worldwide, not in the provincial UK.

 

[yorksrob]

You don't see why having buses run several minutes slower on a Monday than every other day of the week is a problem? Or that having buses run several minutes slower than necessary in general is costly for operators and inconvenient for passengers (and makes switching from car to bus less likely, because it's part of the reason cycling is faster than going by bus in most British cities)? Wow.

The mind really boggles about how this is understood in most other countries and in London but, almost uniquely worldwide, not in the provincial UK.

It made sod all difference to me when I was commuting to work on the bus.

The only thing that did make any sort of difference to my journey whatsoever was whether the schools were off resulting in the traffic being much better.

 

[duncombec]

Unfortunately, some of the more dogmatic posters here seem to forget that buses don't operate in a sterile environment where everyone is perfect (drivers and passengers alike), and that simply stuffing people on board as quickly as possible is a panacea to modal shift.

In recent days, we've seen suggestions that any sort of cash fares or period ticket sales should be heavily restricted on board (if not banned), as well as complaints about how long it takes to perform card transactions. If these are all issues slowing down the service, why don't we take it to it's maximal limit, and ban everything that slows the bus down? Asking the driver a question as to destination? Anyone infirm who needs time to sit down? Wheelchairs, because of the time taken to use the ramp (incidentally, one area where provincial manual ramps are often faster than London's automatic ones)? Pushchairs, because of parking time? By the time we've forbidden usage to anyone who causes an "inconvenience", do we actually have any passengers left for a viable service? Or do we take the minor inconveniences as part and parcel of using public transport?

Equally, there is an easy contrast to some of the recent suggestions here. If delays because people buy a ticket on the bus is delaying modal shift, what on earth makes you think having to laboriously go somewhere else, or download yet another app (contrary to belief, not everyone likes to have eight dozen apps they'll use occasionally blocking up their phones) to buy said ticket will make the bus more of an option? Do I also remember comments above that reading mobile tickets can be slower than paying by card, thus a further delay to the service? Presumably those posters are aware that there are not insignificant areas of the country(side) where mobile signals are poor, internet speeds are poor, and there may not even be a village shop to have a Paypoint-type location? And presumably, where they exist, it's reasonable to delay people doing their shopping (because last time I saw someone top up a meter key using one, the machines were eye-wateringly slow) so the bus doesn't get delayed by 15 seconds in two days time?

For all the talk of London, are we really expected to believe that every route in London is the same? Are the drivers on the 383 or 389 (or whatever the W10 is nowadays - 456?) treat their passengers with the same disdain as the central London routes, or vice-versa that the passengers treat the drivers such? It was noted in last month's Buses magazine:

Last year, Neighbourly Lab, which is working with TfL on the initiative [a campaign to recognise the efforts and impact of bus drivers], found that bus drivers appreciate interactions with the public and that it can dramatically improve morale. Many drivers said that one passenger saying thank you can really make their day and lift their mood entirely."

If companies are already struggling with driver shortages, how would lowering their morale by turning them into "beep monitors" make the job any more inviting? From an anecdotal sample of one, I know of at least one ex-London driver who openly stated one of the reasons he prefers to work in buses 'here' rather than London is because of the chance to interact with people.

Ultimately, yes, there are ways that boarding could be speeded up, and yes, companies could well be challenged in some ways. But that's largely going to be through carrots, rather than sticks, and not draconian restrictions on what you can and can't do in a sterile fantasy world. I don't believe for one second that non-bus users are being put off because it takes a few seconds to stick a ticket in a wallet (presumably they exist somewhere, but when was the last time a bus sold a weekly ticket to almost everyone boarding, as suggested with the "60" suggestions above?) - rather it's the general lack of infrastructure and overwhelming traffic congestion, as well as cost and overall uncertainty of where the bus goes. (It's been noted in other threads that bus use declines and traffic increases when it's raining, as people move towards being dropped off in a car). My entirely unscientific estimate is that you'd save just as much time by reconfiguring ticket machine software to default to card payment (if such is possible, rather than cash and the driver having to press a button), than you would restricting on board sales.

Might we take a moment to remember that whilst few bus companies are perfect, many of them are reasonably attuned to the needs and desires of their customers?

/rant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ultimately, yes, there are ways that boarding could be speeded up, and yes, companies could well be challenged in some ways. But that's largely going to be through carrots, rather than sticks, and not draconian restrictions on what you can and can't do in a sterile fantasy world. I don't believe for one second that non-bus users are being put off because it takes a few seconds to stick a ticket in a wallet

I'm put off bus use outside London in particular because operation is too slow - it is almost always quicker to cycle. As traffic congestion basically isn't a thing in Milton Keynes (there are the odd few exceptions, but it's not major enough that any other city's inhabitants would recognise it as such), it only comes from the bus operation itself, such as spending over a minute at stops selling tickets when in London everyone would have been boarded and the bus on its way within seconds.

As for selling everyone a season on a Monday morning, there are certainly places where that is the norm during the commuter peak, and I'm sure I recall initiatives to reduce it such as making weeklies a quid more expensive on a Monday.

London was able to get rid of conductor operation entirely because of tap-in with Oyster and now contactless - let that sink in - yes, that sort of approach to fares is as fast as conductor operation (slightly faster, indeed, when you compare a single-"door" Routemaster with a dual-door decker).

 

[duncombec]

I'm put off bus use outside London in particular because operation is too slow - it is almost always quicker to cycle. As traffic congestion basically isn't a thing in Milton Keynes (there are the odd few exceptions, but it's not major enough that any other city's inhabitants would recognise it as such), it only comes from the bus operation itself, such as spending over a minute at stops selling tickets when in London everyone would have been boarded and the bus on its way within seconds.

I live on top of a steep hill. It is rarely ever faster to cycle in the homeward-bound direction, unless I skew the start by, e.g., starting a few minutes after one bus has left on the Sunday 20 minute frequency. I don't think you can evidence that is is "almost always" quicker to cycle outside of your specific - highly planned - location.

As for selling everyone a season on a Monday morning, there are certainly places where that is the norm during the commuter peak, and I'm sure I recall initiatives to reduce it such as making weeklies a quid more expensive on a Monday.

Is, or was? Is it not the case that aside from ENCTS holders, every day commuters are the second group to have not returned to 100% bus use post-Covid?

London was able to get rid of conductor operation entirely because of tap-in with Oyster and now contactless - let that sink in - yes, that sort of approach to fares is as fast as conductor operation (slightly faster, indeed, when you compare a single-"door" Routemaster with a dual-door decker).

However, how many routes retained the highly cost-inefficient method of conductor operation when Oyster was introduced? What was the percentage of customers on those routes versus the rest of the pay-driver network? Is there any evidence that journeys on conductor operated routes were faster than driver-only operation over common sections of route at the same time period?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shall we take this off into a new thread? It's something in its own right rather than specific to £2 fares:

On board ticket sales and operating speed

I live on top of a steep hill. It is rarely ever faster to cycle in the homeward-bound direction, unless I skew the start by, e.g., starting a few minutes after one bus has left on the Sunday 20 minute frequency. I don't think you can evidence that is is "almost always" quicker to cycle outside...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[johncrossley]

Have any operators campaigned against keeping the £2 offer?

 

[Andyh82]

Always? Even in the days of Metrocards pre deregulation?

No only from the mid 90s when Yorkshire Rider started to modernise their offer. Everything before that was photocard based

 

[class17]

This really has completely strayed from the subject of Labour and the £2 bus fares so I will leave it there as far as this thread is concerned.

I agree, I read this thread as I wish to hear any news regarding the £2 bus fare, but this thread does seem to be attracting lots of other non relevant topics.
Please be aware of the subject thread when posting on this thread.
Thanks all.

 

[mjc]

I live on top of a steep hill. It is rarely ever faster to cycle in the homeward-bound direction, unless I skew the start by, e.g., starting a few minutes after one bus has left on the Sunday 20 minute frequency. I don't think you can evidence that is is "almost always" quicker to cycle outside of your specific - highly planned - location.

I think your scenario is the specific outlier. How many journeys that people make could be completed with a direct bus and little to no walking? If you need to change bus, or walk 15-20 minutes at either end then there’s a good chance that cycling would be quicker.

My commute to work involves a train journey. The station is 3.5 miles from my house and I can cycle that reliably in 15-20 minutes depending on weather, direction, traffic etc.

In the mornings there’s a direct bus from the stop 5 minutes walk away. The bus takes 25 minutes and scheduled to get me to the station 4 minutes before my train leaves, not much leeway for any traffic issues.

Coming home there’s no direct bus service; I can walk 15 minutes to a direct bus or 10 minutes to an indirect and still need to change. Either option gives overall journey time of 45 minutes +. If I don’t want to walk that far then it’s a 20 minute wait for a bus from the station, then a long wait to change buses and overall journey time of over an hour.

 

[Bungle965]

I have left this thread for a while to let conversations continue, however we’re getting very off topic at some points. I note that @Bletchleyite has another thread to discuss ticket sales which you can post in.

Please keep this thread just for the £2 fare discussion.

Thanks

 

[wilbers]

Just been announced by Kier Starmer in reply to a question that the £2 cap has funding until the end of the year, and in 2025 there will be a £3 cap.

EDIT : BBC article about it later appeared here.

Single bus fares to rise to £3 from £2 in England under new cap

The new limit replaces the existing £2 cap but some have criticised the decision.

www.bbc.co.uk

The single bus fare cap in England will be raised to £3 in the upcoming Budget, Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer has announced.
It is an increase on the current limit of £2 which was introduced under the previous Conservative government to help with the cost of living.
The existing cap was due to expire at the end of December.
Sir Keir said: "I do know how much this matters, particularly in rural communities where there is heavy reliance on buses."
The new £3 cap, covering most bus journeys in England, will run until the end of 2025.

 

[dk1]

Just been announced by Kier Starmer in reply to a question that the £2 cap has funding until the end of the year, and in 2025 there will be a £3 cap.

Good news. Could've been much worse.