Will there come a point soon where people won’t have to learn how to drive a manual car?

[Techniquest]

And road transport has equally come a long way in the intervening years too.

Honestly, I drive thousands upon thousands of miles around the country per year and can count on one hand the amount of cars which spew out black smoke. Whereas I see almost daily under roof of Leeds station a 150 or 158 starting up or setting off and kicking out toxic fumes onto the footbridge and it all swirling around the station. Whether people like it or not, the motoring fraternity has got it’s act together regarding emissions far quicker than the railway has.

Motoring isn’t the root of all evil that people make it out to be when it comes to emissions. I was around long before most people on here were born and can remember smog filled city centres caused by transport and factories. These days the majority of emissions in city centres appear to come from railway stations where diesel trains exist. Casting the first stone and all that.

Fortunate you are then with the black smoke thing! I think in the last month I've seen 3 just in my local area, maybe 2 as I can't remember precisely when the third one was.

You do raise a good point though, the railway is falling behind. It's getting there, compared to the pre-MTU HST days, but it has a lot to do. I suspect until everything from the BR era is gone, then we won't see too much of an improvement. Even though, 170s can be rather bad for emissions.

I don't envy being in cities with smog, I can't even imagine how grim that would be!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Some of us actually enjoy manipulating the clutch and gearstick to achieve best ride, sound and acceleration, believe it or not, especially in high-performance cars.

I'd put myself in this category. I've only ever driven an automatic once, and it was a test drive of a late 1980s Mini. My left foot was constantly twitching, looking for something to do! That said, I certainly wouldn't class myself as a petrol head!


I'm sure I'd get used to it if I drove an auto regularly, but I fear that with less to concentrate on I'd be in more danger of going into "auto-pilot" mode.

On the efficiency side of things modern automatics are no doubt better than ones from the 1980s, but I like being able to control which gear I'm in, and being able to keep revs low by cruising at 30-40mph in a higher gear.

 

[AM9]

On the efficiency side of things modern automatics are no doubt better than ones from the 1980s, but I like being able to control which gear I'm in, and being able to keep revs low by cruising at 30-40mph in a higher gear.

Probably the best drive auto is the CVT which feels about as near to an EV as possible with and engine running at the optimum speed negotiated between it's control unit and the gearbox controller. If the engine is revving high, that's because the driver wants more power (orototque) than lower revs can provide, rather than slogging and possibly increasing wear and fuel consumption.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably the best drive auto is the CVT which feels about as near to an EV as possible with and engine running at the optimum speed negotiated between it's control unit and the gearbox controller. If the engine is revving high, that's because the driver wants more power (orototque) than lower revs can provide, rather than slogging and possibly increasing wear and fuel consumption.

Though they're notoriously unreliable and not long-lasting.

Always surprised me that electric transmission didn't become a thing. That would have the same effect without the rubber band to snap.

 

[NoRoute]

Though they're notoriously unreliable and not long-lasting.

Always surprised me that electric transmission didn't become a thing. That would have the same effect without the rubber band to snap.

Depends on the type of CVT, the Toyota hybrids are CVTs but there's no belt, it uses a planetary gear set with two motor-generators to achieve a variable ratio. Reliability is very good, which is why they're popular with taxi drivers doing high mileages.

And there are some cars with electric transmissions, the Nissan e-Power models.Though they seem to be arriving rather late in the day as the sun sets on the internal combustion engine.

 

[Stewart2887]

I'd put myself in this category. I've only ever driven an automatic once, and it was a test drive of a late 1980s Mini. My left foot was constantly twitching, looking for something to do! That said, I certainly wouldn't class myself as a petrol head!

And the Mini/Austin/Morris A series stuff was unique as it offered 4 automatic gears, and you could shift manually (clutchless obviously). Issigonis wanted 5 forward gears but was persuaded otherwise

Depends on the type of CVT, the Toyota hybrids are CVTs but there's no belt, it uses a planetary gear set with two motor-generators to achieve a variable ratio. Reliability is very good, which is why they're popular with taxi drivers doing high mileages

Interesting. I considered one, but the engine is big (min 1.8 litre) and didn't look very economical. So another VW TSi manual it is. Runs on 2 cylinders much of the time

 

[Dr_Paul]

Some of us actually enjoy manipulating the clutch and gearstick to achieve best ride, sound and acceleration, believe it or not, especially in high-performance cars.

It's not so much a question of my enjoying using the gears, but a matter of control. I like to change down gear when approaching a corner or junction, only using the brakes if necessary, and accelerating out of it, going up the gears as I go faster. The same sort of thing thing goes for changing down gear for a hill or for hefty acceleration if necessary. That was the way I was taught to drive (50 years back!). When I've driven an automatic motor, I've never felt fully in control of it, as it decides things, not me. I would not be happy were manual gearboxes to become a thing of the past.

Is the habit of driving with left foot on brake and right on accelerator common?

I've never heard of that. I once was driving a clapped-out old van with a knackered starter-motor and a tendency to stall, so when coming to a junction I had to keep the revs up with my right foot whilst braking with my left foot, having put the gearstick into neutral. I found myself braking too hard, as I was used to pushing the clutch pedal down quickly, as one does, and thus didn't have the ability to push down my left foot gently. I was glad when the journey was over.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Aren’t most automatics these day, actually automated dual-clutch manual gearboxes?
Manual gearboxes that are automatically controlled and can change gear faster and more economically than a fully manual equivalent.

.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren’t most automatics these day, actually automated dual-clutch manual gearboxes?
Manual gearboxes that are automatically controlled and can change gear faster and more economically than a fully manual equivalent.

I don't know if most are, but some certainly are. Flappy paddle gearboxes generally will be.

 

[Vespa]

That doesn't make any sense! If you've only learnt to drive and passed your test in a car with 2 pedals, then you shouldn't be allowed to drive one with 3!

The interesting things is, in America if you pass in an automatic which most American cars are, you're also covered for manual cars, stickshift in American parlance.

Eventually i could see Britain going this way, for now I would pass on a manual licence to keep your options open, I've driven autos and EV it's quite easy to adapt to, gears takes a bit of practice as there's more involved and I prefer to have more control of my car.

 

[GLC]

I don't know if most are, but some certainly are. Flappy paddle gearboxes generally will be.

They are plenty of torque converter gearboxes which have paddles. 99% of BMWs, JLR, Alfa Romeo, among many others use the same torque converter gearbox supplied by ZF, which offers paddles. Volvos use the same gearbox too but simply don’t provide paddles. Mercedes offer paddles too but use a multi clutch box. DCT gearboxes I’d wager are in the minority now, only (some) VAG products, some Fords and some niche performance cars still use them

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eventually i could see Britain going this way

There is a plan in Government to go that way, just hasn't got a date on it yet.

 

[RailWonderer]

Maybe I should move to The Fens



Definitely more restricted in terms of what I can buy, agreed, but it is being seriously considered.



I'll be willing to travel across the Midlands (within reason) to buy the automatic if needs be, realistically anywhere in the West Midlands Day Ranger area. That's quite an area to find the car in!

I don't like driving, correct. It goes against my morals and my ethics to drive, however the long and short of it is that my mother is the only one in the family who can drive. She's fast approaching the day she turns 70, and every month she gets more nervous on the roads. Understandable with the Grade A* idiots out there these days, and while she'll be fine to drive for a good while yet it's only a matter of time until that changes. The others in the family are unable to learn for one reason or another, so unless I learn to drive then one day she'll lose her independence with driving and not be able to go anywhere.

Driving is enough to give me anxiety and stress, but I will have to find a way to deal with that. I'd much rather go skipping around my workplace for 12 hours (with suitable breaks for reloading on carbs ) hand in hand with the boss, singing really loudly to all the cheesy songs I know, quite honestly.

If I could afford one, I'd have less issues with breaking the morals and ethics if I was able to drive an electric car. That is not even an option financially though! I don't even know how I'm going to finance the lessons, as I'm determined I'll fund it all myself and make it a surprise for Mum when it's (hopefully) all passed some time next year!

Don’t be ashamed for having a good reason to drive. Driving is a life skill (unless you live in a big city) and you can enjoy it if on the right roads at the right times of day. Instead of thinking about hazards all the time and what could go wrong, enjoy the experience while practicing what you learned in the lessons as it will soon become second nature.
I can’t believe I’m giving driving advice on a rail forum.

Anyway, many older cheaper cars are manuals because automatic used to be a factory option at £1k or sometimes even £2k+ so many buyers skipped it. You can still pick up many a cheap auto though so it’s totally up to you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don’t be ashamed for having a good reason to drive. Driving is a life skill (unless you live in a big city) and you can enjoy it if on the right roads at the right times of day. Instead of thinking about hazards all the time and what could go wrong, enjoy the experience while practicing what you learned in the lessons as it will soon become second nature.

Every driver should be thinking about hazards all the time. If you don't, please stay away from me on the road.

It is not necessary to panic and worry about them, but being aware of them is utterly fundamental (and itself becomes second nature over time).

 

[RailWonderer]

Every driver should be thinking about hazards all the time. If you don't, please stay away from me on the road.

It is not necessary to panic and worry about them, but being aware of them is utterly fundamental (and itself becomes second nature over time).

I should have phrased it better. Of course you need to be always aware of speeds, vehicles and signs around you, but not worrying yourself into anxiety about it.

I’ll spot a hazard, but I’m not constantly thinking about one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I should have phrased it better. Of course you need to be always aware of speeds, vehicles and signs around you, but not worrying yourself into anxiety about it.

I’ll spot a hazard, but I’m not constantly thinking about one.

For new drivers it probably makes sense to do that sort of active scanning as per the hazard perception test.

Once more experienced it becomes second nature.

But no it shouldn't provoke anxiety, but rather a calculated "what would I do if?"

 

[Ediswan]

DCT gearboxes I’d wager are in the minority now, only (some) VAG products, some Fords and some niche performance cars still use them

And Kia. Mine works rather well, gear changes are very smooth.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't know if most are, but some certainly are. Flappy paddle gearboxes generally will be.

This isn't the case as a lot of flappy paddles will also be Torque converter gearboxes

 

[philthetube]

For new drivers it probably makes sense to do that sort of active scanning as per the hazard perception test.

Once more experienced it becomes second nature.

But no it shouldn't provoke anxiety, but rather a calculated "what would I do if?"

Agreed, if you have to concentrate on every little thing going on around you driving will be exhausting and not enjoyable.

 

[E27007]

Though they're notoriously unreliable and not long-lasting.

Always surprised me that electric transmission didn't become a thing. That would have the same effect without the rubber band to snap.

It has changed, the curent Honda Jazz hybrid , moves from rest on battery power and electric traction motors, at 20 mph the petrol engine starts up to charge the traction battery, there is no direct mechanical connection between engine and road wheels so far. At high speed , a clutch engages mechanically connecting the engine to the road wheel, direct drive. Sounds complicated, and expensive it is not!. The Honda is £21000-£22000 OTR, the price of a contemporary hatchback such as a DSG VW Polo. The Jazz has only one gear, effectively "gearless" transmission , no clutch pedal or gear lever. Vehicle economy is very high, owners reporting 70 mpg in real world driving

So another VW TSi manual it is. Runs on 2 cylinders much of the time

It will run on 2 cylinders, when the Direct Injection fuelling system has caused the inlet valves to clog with carbon deposits!

I am sure I read that the distinction is planned to be removed, though I forget when. Main reason is so that people can learn in EVs.

The distintinction does not apply to motorcycles or motor scooters, manual transmission 2-wheeled vehicles are a minoirity, twist and go belt drive scooters are the top sellers, the famous Honda C50 style bike, 125 million sales and still climbing, has a gear pedal and centrifugal clutch, but no clutch lever on the handlebar. The distinction for cars should go too, It may have been valid when cars had crash gearboxes, requiring double-declutching skills, (my Father learned to drive in such a car) but modern gearboxes are easy to master.
In fact compared to all the skills required to drive a car, hazard perception, steering , braking, the clutch and gearlever are the easiest skills to master.

 

[The exile]

Never ceases to amaze me the number of people who don't like driving and then complain that 'well I was doing 40 mph and getting loads of people getting impatient behind me' who are utterly ignorant of the Highway Code and rule 169 in particular which states " Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. “Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass." - if you're forming a queue of traffic behind you, then you are a slow moving vehicle.

I can think of several places where what it means is that you’re the only one who is observing the speed limit…

 

[E27007]

I can think of several places where what it means is that you’re the only one who is observing the speed limit…

Rule 169 is aimed at vehicles such as Farm Tractors, the wording includes the driver using a safe place to pull over, a safe place means a Lay-by etc not just a random place.
And what exactly is a long queue in terms of number of vehicles, and the length of time the long queue has amassed before Rule 169 is deemed a reportable offence?
Ratio of prosections and transgressions for breaking Rule 124, and Rule 169, 1 million to 1 ?

 

[A0]

Rule 169 is aimed at vehicles such as Farm Tractors, the wording includes the driver using a safe place to pull over, a safe place means a Lay-by etc not just a random place.
And what exactly is a long queue in terms of number of vehicles, and the length of time the long queue has amassed before Rule 169 is deemed a reportable offence?
Ratio of prosections and transgressions for breaking Rule 124, and Rule 169, 1 million to 1 ?

Not so, the wording is:

"Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass."

So it is aimed at *all* road users, it's just that the drivers of large or slow moving vehicles should be more vigilant. It does not exclude regular car drivers or even cyclists.

 

[route101]

And many autos have a double width brake pedal, which means going for the clutch means an unexpected emergency stop. Far more dangerous than someone fumbling a manual and stalling at very low speed.

Yes, done that a few times in an Automatic car and the first time I drove an automatic van!

I do find manuals a chore in stop start traffic, especially on a hill and at junctions on a hill.

 

[swt_passenger]

I like manuals. To me i feel I am more in control. Especially on hills. Plenty of those where i live.

Is the habit of driving with left foot on brake and right on accelerator common. My mother in law did that. You sometimes see people driving for miles with brake lights on suggesting their left foot is resting on the brake pedal. But that negates the point of brake lights if they are on all the time.

I think a lot depends on how you started driving. The small number of times I drove a hired automatic I followed a colleague’s advice to keep my left foot away from the pedals and use the right foot only.

 

[TPO]

The first time I drove an auto I nearly put the rep through thew windscreen, - my left foot went down thinking it was resting on the clutch. Thereafter whenever I've started driving an auto after time away, I always put my left foot behind my right. That fixes it easily.

It's a bad habit in a manual to rest your left foot on the clutch pedal, wears the clutch apparently..... or so my dad insisted. Quite a lot of manual cars have a footrest to the left of the clutch pedal.

I'd put myself in this category. I've only ever driven an automatic once, and it was a test drive of a late 1980s Mini. My left foot was constantly twitching, looking for something to do! That said, I certainly wouldn't class myself as a petrol head!


I'm sure I'd get used to it if I drove an auto regularly, but I fear that with less to concentrate on I'd be in more danger of going into "auto-pilot" mode.

On the efficiency side of things modern automatics are no doubt better than ones from the 1980s, but I like being able to control which gear I'm in, and being able to keep revs low by cruising at 30-40mph in a higher gear.

In my newish car (Focus) when at a steady pace on the motorway I am content to have both feet off the pedals, cruise control on, lane assist engaged and auto lights and wipers. Leaves me to focus more on the road traffic and conditions and is less fatiguing overall, giving myself the challenge of smooth frugal driving means I keep engaged and in fact anticipate much more. I also find the heads up display with traffic sign recognition a big move forward. It is a Euro6 diesel but is very refined and frugal, on a good day I can get just over 80mpg on a long motorway trip although 70-75mpg is more usual with traffic and non motorway bits included.

My Big Van is much older and purely analogue. Keeps my hand in but is much more physical to drive and so much more fatiguing over a long distance. If I were buying a new van I would be after an auto. As it is the heavy clutch is tiring on the left ankle in traffic.

I can see the attraction of modern autos and EVs. Car technology has come on hugely in the past few years, although as ever there is the concern about longevity the signs so far are positive.

TPO

 

[DelW]

It's a bad habit in a manual to rest your left foot on the clutch pedal, wears the clutch apparently..... or so my dad insisted. Quite a lot of manual cars have a footrest to the left of the clutch pedal.

As one who switched to an automatic (hybrid) a couple of years ago after fifty years of driving manuals, I can vouch that I had to keep my left foot well away from pedals for quite a long time after. It didn't need to be resting on the clutch (which is indeed bad practice), if it was anywhere near it would be liable to go and find a pedal and try to press it down to the floor, which is problematic if it's the footbrake! Obviously when you're thinking about your driving it isn't a problem, but when your brain is fully occupied dealing with traffic, navigation, etc, that instinctive behaviour is liable to kick back in.

Even two years later, when I come off a long motorway run and approach a roundabout, I sometimes feel that I "ought" to be doing something with my left hand and foot. All those years of using clutch and gear lever without consciously thinking about them take a long while to unlearn.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I haven't driven a car called Manuel since 2006!

Or it could be 2008.

In any case, it's been a while.

 

[Chester1]

Love of manual cars is a bizzare British thing.

I failed manual test twice and switched to automatic on advice of my instructor (who didn't offer automatic lessons and was giving advice against his own interest). I failed multiple times in an automatic and came to the conclusion I am not suited to drive. I remember people recoiling in horror when I said I was doing automatic lessons. Various unconvincing reasons why not to do automatic lessons were provided. For me it was very simple, not having to change gears simplified driving with the limitation of needing to buy an automatic and being unable to drive someone elses car if it was a manual. Had I passed the automatic test I would have probably taken a manual test but only after gaining plenty of driving experience. As other posters have said its irrelevant long term.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Your car will become another "safe space" when you're feeling anxious and stressed. It will also enable you to access places and bike or train rides that you couldn't otherwise reach or find time for.

Each to their own, but a car is a source of anxiety and stress to me. I passed my test 30 years ago, I’m not a bad driver, and for a while I had a long daily car commute (Oxfordshire to Watford).

Despite all that I don’t enjoy it. Parking and maintenance are two enormous hassles I can do without. Car time feels like wasted time unless it’s an area of the country I don’t know. It’s about as far from a “safe space” as it could be.

I’ve driven once since June and that was to collect a new bike. All my travel is by train, bike or bus, including a daily school run with our six year old. Right now the main reason we keep the car is because Mrs Fegg uses it to get to work on train strike days.