Will there come a point soon where people won’t have to learn how to drive a manual car?

[90019]

Thanks for that information, I didn't know that before I didn't know of this thread either, but I don't visit this bit of the forum all too often.

Some very fancy tech involved there it would seem, and I agree that all the stuff about finding the biting point etc I'm not great on, I hope the instructor I choose this time will be a good one and that it won't cause any anxiety issues!

mods note - split from this thread.

You could go for an automatic licence and not have to worry about things like the bite point.

It restricts what you can buy a litte bit, but almost everything is available as an auto these days.

 

[miklcct]

You could go for an automatic licence and not have to worry about things like the bite point.

It restricts what you can buy a litte bit, but almost everything is available as an auto these days.

Isn't an auto more expensive to run?

 

[Watershed]

You could go for an automatic licence and not have to worry about things like the bite point.

It restricts what you can buy a litte bit, but almost everything is available as an auto these days.

It significantly limits your options if you're looking to buy a cheaper used car, and you almost have to go through the same process as getting your licence in the first place to get the automatic-only restriction removed. So I really wouldn't recommend it.

 

[90019]

It significantly limits your options if you're looking to buy a cheaper used car, and you almost have to go through the same process as getting your licence in the first place to get the automatic-only restriction removed. So I really wouldn't recommend it.

Five or ten years ago I would've agreed, but with autos becoming more common over the last few years there's a lot more of them on the second hand market than there used to be.

For someone who says they dislike driving and are only learning through necessity, an auto only licence would likely be more than enough and I doubt he'd be interested in upgrading it to a manual licence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It significantly limits your options if you're looking to buy a cheaper used car, and you almost have to go through the same process as getting your licence in the first place to get the automatic-only restriction removed. So I really wouldn't recommend it.

I am sure I read that the distinction is planned to be removed, though I forget when. Main reason is so that people can learn in EVs.

 

[Domh245]

I am sure I read that the distinction is planned to be removed, though I forget when. Main reason is so that people can learn in EVs.

That doesn't make any sense! If you've only learnt to drive and passed your test in a car with 2 pedals, then you shouldn't be allowed to drive one with 3!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That doesn't make any sense! If you've only learnt to drive and passed your test in a car with 2 pedals, then you shouldn't be allowed to drive one with 3!

There won't be any cars with 3 before long, other than classics. And you don't have to do a separate test to drive a series 2 Land Rover with a crash box. So it's rapidly becoming irrelevant.

 

[Techniquest]

I know someone who took their test in Spalding, then moved up north and had to take lessons again to learn how to cope with hills.

Maybe I should move to The Fens

You could go for an automatic licence and not have to worry about things like the bite point.

It restricts what you can buy a litte bit, but almost everything is available as an auto these days.

Definitely more restricted in terms of what I can buy, agreed, but it is being seriously considered.

Five or ten years ago I would've agreed, but with autos becoming more common over the last few years there's a lot more of them on the second hand market than there used to be.

For someone who says they dislike driving and are only learning through necessity, an auto only licence would likely be more than enough and I doubt he'd be interested in upgrading it to a manual licence.

I'll be willing to travel across the Midlands (within reason) to buy the automatic if needs be, realistically anywhere in the West Midlands Day Ranger area. That's quite an area to find the car in!

I don't like driving, correct. It goes against my morals and my ethics to drive, however the long and short of it is that my mother is the only one in the family who can drive. She's fast approaching the day she turns 70, and every month she gets more nervous on the roads. Understandable with the Grade A* idiots out there these days, and while she'll be fine to drive for a good while yet it's only a matter of time until that changes. The others in the family are unable to learn for one reason or another, so unless I learn to drive then one day she'll lose her independence with driving and not be able to go anywhere.

Driving is enough to give me anxiety and stress, but I will have to find a way to deal with that. I'd much rather go skipping around my workplace for 12 hours (with suitable breaks for reloading on carbs ) hand in hand with the boss, singing really loudly to all the cheesy songs I know, quite honestly.

If I could afford one, I'd have less issues with breaking the morals and ethics if I was able to drive an electric car. That is not even an option financially though! I don't even know how I'm going to finance the lessons, as I'm determined I'll fund it all myself and make it a surprise for Mum when it's (hopefully) all passed some time next year!

 

[Domh245]

There won't be any cars with 3 before long, other than classics. And you don't have to do a separate test to drive a series 2 Land Rover with a crash box. So it's rapidly becoming irrelevant.

Depends how you define rapidly and "before long" - I can still envisage a fairly large number of vehicles with 3 pedals past 2040, given that they'll likely be sold right up to 31/12/2029 and the ban on new ICE & MHEVs, and you'd expect them to then soldier on for at least 10 years!

I still can't help but feel like it doesn't solve anything so have to question what the point is. Yes maybe change the wording away from "automatic" license but no point removing the distinction until such a point that it's naturally died off and nobody (/very few people) is applying for manual licenses anymore

 

[the sniper]

I am sure I read that the distinction is planned to be removed, though I forget when. Main reason is so that people can learn in EVs.

There won't be any cars with 3 before long, other than classics. And you don't have to do a separate test to drive a series 2 Land Rover with a crash box. So it's rapidly becoming irrelevant.

I think it'll be long enough for it not to be worth considering this decade, at least.

 

[Darandio]

Driving is enough to give me anxiety and stress, but I will have to find a way to deal with that. I'd much rather go skipping around my workplace for 12 hours (with suitable breaks for reloading on carbs ) hand in hand with the boss, singing really loudly to all the cheesy songs I know, quite honestly.

Whilst everyone is different learning to drive could be a great answer to any anxiety or stress you have, assuming the next instructor doesn't ruin it!

I've known various people who the years that suffered with anxiety in various areas of life and some of it was from using public transport, relying on others to get about and generally being restricted in what they can do in everyday life. Learning to drive and getting a car provides so much freedom that they really improved mentally and became more active socially.

Learning can be hard, passing the tests can be really hard but it could be the greatest thing you ever do.

 

[Techniquest]

Whilst everyone is different learning to drive could be a great answer to any anxiety or stress you have, assuming the next instructor doesn't ruin it!

I've known various people who the years that suffered with anxiety in various areas of life and some of it was from using public transport, relying on others to get about and generally being restricted in what they can do in everyday life. Learning to drive and getting a car provides so much freedom that they really improved mentally and became more active socially.

Learning can be hard, passing the tests can be really hard but it could be the greatest thing you ever do.

I like your optimism! It is hard, no question of it, and being in a car trying to learn is what causes the anxiety and stress. Work does it too, but that's different again!

I think the days of my having an active social life are long past me, there are very few people I actively want to be sociable with! That was partly caused by the pandemic, not entirely the cause but it sure accelerated the trend! So driving isn't going to help there.

The only thing I can think of where it will benefit me is being more flexible with jobs.

 

[telstarbox]

If you can deal with gears on a bike you can do them on a car - it's by far one of the easiest things about driving a car. Worst case is you over rev (in a low gear) or stall (in a high gear).

 

[Bald Rick]

I am sure I read that the distinction is planned to be removed, though I forget when. Main reason is so that people can learn in EVs.

you can learn in EVs now. I overtook an “EV Driving School” car today. (on my bike, the learner was driving a little slow).

 

[E27007]

The choice of car models available with a conventional clutch / manual transmission is diminishing, several manufacturers have announced their product range will exclude manual transmissions, in the future only the low cost budget brands will have manual transmissions

 

[Bletchleyite]

you can learn in EVs now. I overtook an “EV Driving School” car today. (on my bike, the learner was driving a little slow).

You can, but you'll get an automatic licence. I would always recommend people go for a manual licence unless they really cannot coordinate it - until the distinction is abolished. Never know if you'll need to drive a different car.

If you can deal with gears on a bike you can do them on a car - it's by far one of the easiest things about driving a car. Worst case is you over rev (in a low gear) or stall (in a high gear).

Gears are fairly easy, but the clutch can be quite difficult. In test terms a "flappy paddle" gearbox counts as automatic. I would say the clutch is the biggest thing to get used to if driving a vehicle other than your usual.

 

[A0wen]

I don't like driving, correct. It goes against my morals and my ethics to drive, however the long and short of it is that my mother is the only one in the family who can drive. She's fast approaching the day she turns 70, and every month she gets more nervous on the roads. Understandable with the Grade A* idiots out there these days,

Driving is enough to give me anxiety and stress, but I will have to find a way to deal with that. I'd much rather go skipping around my workplace for 12 hours (with suitable breaks for reloading on carbs ) hand in hand with the boss, singing really loudly to all the cheesy songs I know, quite honestly.


If I could afford one, I'd have less issues with breaking the morals and ethics if I was able to drive an electric car. That is not even an option financially though! I don't even know how I'm going to finance the lessons, as I'm determined I'll fund it all myself and make it a surprise for Mum when it's (hopefully) all passed some time next year!

In which case you really ought not be driving - you say about Grade A idiots, but I'm afraid drivers who lack confidence and dislike driving are every bit as much of a danger and menace on the roads as the prick in a BMW who tailgates everyone and doesn't indicate. And they also lack awareness about why they are dangerous as well.

Never ceases to amaze me the number of people who don't like driving and then complain that 'well I was doing 40 mph and getting loads of people getting impatient behind me' who are utterly ignorant of the Highway Code and rule 169 in particular which states " Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. “Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass." - if you're forming a queue of traffic behind you, then you are a slow moving vehicle.

Equally the lack of lane discipline on motorways - with people not realising that sitting in the middle lane for example when not overtaking is an offence - driving without due care and attention.

 

[Dai Corner]

I like your optimism! It is hard, no question of it, and being in a car trying to learn is what causes the anxiety and stress. Work does it too, but that's different again!

I think the days of my having an active social life are long past me, there are very few people I actively want to be sociable with! That was partly caused by the pandemic, not entirely the cause but it sure accelerated the trend! So driving isn't going to help there.

The only thing I can think of where it will benefit me is being more flexible with jobs.

Your car will become another "safe space" when you're feeling anxious and stressed. It will also enable you to access places and bike or train rides that you couldn't otherwise reach or find time for.

 

[Techniquest]

If you can deal with gears on a bike you can do them on a car - it's by far one of the easiest things about driving a car. Worst case is you over rev (in a low gear) or stall (in a high gear).

I would disagree, based on my past experiences, but we will see what happens when I eventually choose a driving instructor. Hill starts are going to be my biggest enemy I reckon, but we will see what happens.

Your car will become another "safe space" when you're feeling anxious and stressed. It will also enable you to access places and bike or train rides that you couldn't otherwise reach or find time for.

The latter point I definitely agree on, it'll be very useful for some positioning moves. The safe space thing, I don't know but then I haven't been in the driving seat of a car for quite some time. It could just be an enormous amount of fear clouding my judgement of it all, and I could potentially do quite well once I have a couple of lessons to get used to it.

I've got to pass the theory test yet though, and that hazard perception test is going to be the killer. I thought I'd be good at it, especially with many, many hours of road cycling, but the study material proves otherwise! I have got that next week, and the theory side of it all I'm confident with but the hazard perception thing, I'm going to have to be very lucky with it!

As for automatic vs manual vs EV, I'm on the fence with all of them. Being able to learn in an EV would be nice, but I think if I was to then go over to a more 'traditional' car it wouldn't feel right. It's weird, I know, don't ask me where my logic comes from because I don't know either!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That doesn't make any sense! If you've only learnt to drive and passed your test in a car with 2 pedals, then you shouldn't be allowed to drive one with 3!

Absolutely. The reason there's a difference is safety, which really should be the number one priority when it comes to licensing.
With the rise of EV's there may be more people getting auto-only licences, and fewer manual cars being sold. But removing a safety-based restriction for reasons of convenience is not how things should work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there really a safety difference? If you can't handle a manual, you'll not even move it.

 

[steamybrian]

When living in South London in my early 20s I started to learn to drive in a manual car. Trying to learn the co-ordination of the clutch, gears controlling brake/accelerator plus steering amongst the sheer volume of traffic was enough stress for me to abandon the course after a few lessons.
In my 40s I was working with a lady who in conversation had the same problem and was advised to learn on automatics which she did and passed. I followed her and soon gained confidence very quickly and passed my driving test at the age of 44 years. My licence restricts me to automatic cars but I can drive around !

There is a limited number of cars available maybe around 20% of the market but the number is growing with more electric cars on the market so maybe that is the way forward. I have checked I am able to drive electric cars with my licence.

Finally - I am not permitted to drive a manual car except with the appropriate regulations as a learner. At the age of 72 years I am not spending a lot of money just so that I can drive a manual car when I am happy with what I have got.

 

[90019]

Isn't an auto more expensive to run?

Older autos were worse on fuel than the equivalent manual, but autos have progressed to the point that there's little, if any, difference.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is there really a safety difference? If you can't handle a manual, you'll not even move it.

If there wasn't, would there be a need for the difference?

If you have an auto only licence, then learn informally how to operate a manual, you'd still be breaking the law by driving a manual car if you don't go through the official process.

If that isn't a rule for safety reasons, it shouldn't be a rule at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there wasn't, would there be a need for the difference?

I don't think there *is* a need for the difference now manuals are on the way out anyway. Particularly as what constitutes a manual now differs hugely from what did when that was brought in.

The Government seems to agree, though hasn't set a date yet.

 

[Ediswan]

Private aviation has the concept of 'differences training'. Most people learn, and take their test, on an aircraft with a fixed tricycle undercarriage and fixed pitch propeller. If you want to fly a tail dragger, retractable undercarriage, or variable pitch propeller, then a relatively short course of 'differences training' is the way to go. They are all covered by the original licence/rating, there is no additional CAA test. This tends to be backed up by insurers insisting on such training.

Maybe something like that could be used to convert to driving a manual.

 

[Darandio]

Private aviation has the concept of 'differences training'. Most people learn, and take their test, on an aircraft with a fixed tricycle undercarriage and fixed pitch propeller. If you want to fly a tail dragger, retractable undercarriage, or variable pitch propeller, then a relatively short course of 'differences training' is the way to go. They are all covered by the original licence/rating, there is no additional CAA test. This tends to be backed up by insurers insisting on such training.

Maybe something like that could be used to convert to driving a manual.

Isn't that exactly how it already is? Book a couple of lessons to learn clutch control and gear changes then book a new driving test. I'm not even sure the lessons part is legally required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't that exactly how it already is? Book a couple of lessons to learn clutch control and gear changes then book a new driving test. I'm not even sure the lessons part is legally required.

A full repeat driving test just to get one aspect of it changed isn't exactly how that is at all. It's much more modular.

 

[Ediswan]

Isn't that exactly how it already is? Book a couple of lessons to learn clutch control and gear changes then book a new driving test. I'm not even sure the lessons part is legally required.

The 'differences training' does not require a new CAA (flying) skills test.

 

[NoRoute]

Isn't an auto more expensive to run?

Generally they used to have worse efficiency than a manual by at least several mpg, but then hybrids came along which are pretty much all automatics and have better efficiency than manuals, and of course EVs which are all autos.

As a skill, driving a manual will become steadily redundant though simply because there's fewer manual cars around. If I was learning to drive today I think I could quite happily get along with an auto-only license at a push, not least because the modern hybrids and EVs are a lot better and nicer to drive than many of the manual cars. Smoother, more efficient and driving around town in heavy congestion and stop-start traffic is a actually quite relaxing in an auto, whereas it was a right old chore in a manual.

I think probably the main benefit of being able to drive a manual car is it gives you more flexibility if you find yourself having to drive another car, like a hire car, fleet or loan car.