How do people afford a car?

[cactustwirly]

A timing belt failure is a pretty rare event. Typical replacement intervals are 5 years / 60k miles. But you can always stretch that.

My car is 10 years or 109k.
It's approaching 9.5 years, and 75k, by the next service it'll be 10.5 years.

I know someone who has just had a close call with an aux belt snapping (which can also take out the cam belt)
Whilst I can stretch it, I'd rather be on the safe side.

 

[Bald Rick]

My car is 10 years or 109k.
It's approaching 9.5 years, and 75k, by the next service it'll be 10.5 years.

I know someone who has just had a close call with an aux belt snapping (which can also take out the cam belt)
Whilst I can stretch it, I'd rather be on the safe side.

yes at that age / mileage, get it done!

 

[Bletchleyite]

My car is 10 years or 109k.
It's approaching 9.5 years, and 75k, by the next service it'll be 10.5 years.

I know someone who has just had a close call with an aux belt snapping (which can also take out the cam belt)
Whilst I can stretch it, I'd rather be on the safe side.

10 years/100K is much more common. A 5 year interval suggests a car with a design flaw on which it was reduced due to known events of breakage.

We had one go once, but fortunately it was an old non interference engine so we just had to have a new one fitted.

Because it can write off the car I wouldn't stretch it, I'd do it early, maybe at 8 years or 80K if the interval is the usual 10.

 

[E27007]

10 years/100K is much more common. A 5 year interval suggests a car with a design flaw on which it was reduced due to known events of breakage.

We had one go once, but fortunately it was an old non interference engine so we just had to have a new one fitted.

Because it can write off the car I wouldn't stretch it, I'd do it early, maybe at 8 years or 80K if the interval is the usual 10.

If the cambelt fails it is not always due to life expiry, it fails due to being overloaded by another part which is worn, example, the Mark 3 Ford Escort had poor quality bearings in the engine water pump, the waterpump would bind (overloading the belt) or even sieze then the belt would break. It is good pratice to change more than the belt, renew parts which are driven by the belt too.
Cambelt failures seem to belong to cars of the 1980s and 1990s, does not seem to be a problem today, blocked DPFs and EGRs are the scourge of today

I dont find car ownership too expensive, ive been earning £25k for the last few years. Ive been driving near 10 years with a £400 corsa off ebay which just kept going. I have recently got a 15 plate diesel corsa for £3k, which I took out a loan to buy cash. Pay around £80 a month for it. Road tax is £0, just had my insurance renewal quote in at £290. Most expensive bit is fuelling the thing! I try to commute using the train where possible, but I have to own a car for the early starts and late finishes.

The Mrs has also recently upgraded from an ebay bargain corsa to a £5k 2016 corsa. Again, loan payment around £110per month, £30 road tax, her insurance is around £400 a year. Fuel is again the most expensive part. Flew through its last mot so no expense there.

You need to account for depreciation as a motoring expense,. fuel is typically not the biggest cost, it is depreciation, your first Corsa was a bargain , £400 for 10 years of driving, a trifling £40 per year, your 2016 £5000 Corsa should may well last you for another 10 years, ie £500 per year depreciation, but I expect the depreciation in the first two or three years of ownership will be more than £500/year , probably £750 to £1000/ year. With a 2016 car you are streets ahead of the new car buyer in the depreciation stakes, £9000 over 3 years on a £20000 car .

 

[A0wen]

If the cambelt fails it is not always due to life expiry, it fails due to being overloaded by another part which is worn, example, the Mark 3 Ford Escort had poor quality bearings in the engine water pump, the waterpump would bind (overloading the belt) or even sieze then the belt would break. It is good pratice to change more than the belt, renew parts which are driven by the belt too.
Cambelt failures seem to belong to cars of the 1980s and 1990s, does not seem to be a problem today, blocked DPFs and EGRs are the scourge of today

BIB - not true. Whilst DPF and EGR failures are more common - mainly on diesels which are being used for short, urban journeys which they aren't really designed for. But there are a few well known engines which are having cambelt problems - the Renault 1.5 diesel (as used in various Renault, Nissan, Dacia and even the Mercedes A class) is one such example. A friend of mine bought a Megane at an auction which looked in good condition but snapped its belt about a month later saddling him with a costly engine rebuild and a quick look around the web shows up quite a few complaints on this one.

The other engine which seems to be having such problems is the Peugeot 1.2 "Puretech" (used in Peugeot, Citroen and now Vauxhalls) - again no shortage of complaints on the web.

 

[E27007]

ULEZ with a petrol engine means Euro 4 compliant, which is generally a post 2006 car, so almost anything post 2010.

I recommend checking any pre-Euro 4 car on the TFL ULEZ checker, you may have a nice surprise!
For petrol cars, (cannot say for diesel cars) the Euro4 cutoff for ULEZ is not rigorous, enter your car registration and see for yourself.

Here is the TFL ULEZ checker, it is the TFL website and is genuine, (some checkers are scams):

Check your Vehicle

tfl.gov.uk

Example my 2000 car is certificated as a Euro 3 but is exempt from ULEZ charge , the reason being the car emissions figures are sufficiently low , the car meets Euro 3 and Euro 4 too, therefore no ULEZ charge payable
By some means TFL have identified the car models as my 2000 car which straddle and step-up into a higher Euro4 category, and the driver does not pay the daily ULEZ charge, perhaps the car makers lobbied TFL with emissions data from the Cerrtificate of Conformance of each model

 

[A0wen]

I recommend checking any pre-Euro 4 car on the TFL ULEZ checker, you may have a nice surprise!
For petrol cars, (cannot say for diesel cars) the Euro4 cutoff for ULEZ is not rigorous, enter your car registration and see for yourself.

Here is the TFL ULEZ checker, it is the TFL website and is genuine, (some checkers are scams):



Example my 2000 car is certificated as a Euro 3 but is exempt from ULEZ charge , the reason being the car emissions figures are sufficiently low , the car meets Euro 3 and Euro 4 too, therefore no ULEZ charge payable
By some means TFL have identified the car models as my 2000 car which straddles and steps-up into a higher Euro4 category, perhaps the car makers lobbied TFL

TBH even a 2010 car is now 12 years old - so unless you're trawling the banger market, the odds are pretty much anything you'll buy is Euro 4 now.

 

[philthetube]

A timing belt failure is a pretty rare event. Typical replacement intervals are 5 years / 60k miles. But you can always stretch that.

Isn't that why they fail?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't that why they fail?

Stretching timing belt intervals is not sensible unless you are about to scrap the car anyway, and even then a seized engine from 70mph in Lane 4 of a motorway could easily get you killed. Generally I've seen it recommended to have it done at about 80% of the interval (mileage or time, whichever comes first) which means a failure is incredibly unlikely. Half the interval used to be recommended when they were less reliable.

 

[E27007]

Stretching timing belt intervals is not sensible unless you are about to scrap the car anyway, and even then a seized engine from 70mph in Lane 4 of a motorway could easily get you killed. Generally I've seen it recommended to have it done at about 80% of the interval (mileage or time, whichever comes first) which means a failure is incredibly unlikely. Half the interval used to be recommended when they were less reliable.

Your comment on the safety aspect of an engine failure has reminded me of the Vauxhall cars we had on the Railway, We had a number of J-plate Astras, when it was time for a belt change the Union found there was a policy, Management grade vehicles had the full Vauxhall Service Schedule, the cam belt was swapped at the recommended mileage, not so with lower grades (we of the Orange Army") the policy was no cambelt changes, , if the belt ever fails, fit a new engine
The Union Reps were none too happy to learn of this. Illustrates the origin of the systemic "Us and Them " cultural thinking of the Old School Railway,

 

[Bald Rick]

Your comment on the safety aspect of an engine failure has reminded me of the Vauxhall cars we had on the Railway, We had a number of J-plate Astras, when it was time for a belt change the Union found there was a policy, Management grade vehicles had the full Vauxhall Service Schedule, the cam belt was swapped at the recommended mileage, not so with lower grades (we of the Orange Army") the policy was no cambelt changes, , if the belt ever fails, fit a new engine
The Union Reps were none too happy to learn of this. Illustrates the origin of the systemic "Us and Them " cultural thinking of the Old School Railway,

Whilst it will never be proven one way or another, I suspect that is not true.

 

[E27007]

Whilst it will never be proven one way or another, I suspect that is not true.

The fact that I was responsible for arranging the servicing of the vehicles allocated to the Depot might give you a clue as to factuality of my post.

 

[anthony263]

Its a struggle at times to put diesel in my 14 plate Ford fiesta.

Had to have the AA out this evening as my car engine decided to overheat and cook some of the oil in the engine. Head gasket blown according to the bloke from.the AA. Car limited home after cooling down and filling up extra coolant.

Now to limp.it to my local garage and hope they can get it fixed. Good thing I hired a minibus to take the family to butlins next week.

Big repair bill i suspect when.i get home back.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ok fair enough. I didn’t read the J plate bit, which puts this as around 30 years ago and Pre privatisation. Good old BR!

 

[A0wen]

The fact that I was responsible for arranging the servicing of the vehicles allocated to the Depot might give you a clue as to factuality of my post.

It should be pointed out that the diesel Vauxhalls (I'm assuming you were running diesels) of that generation were the 1.7 Isuzu engine which had about a 70,000 mile interval for replacing the belt. The thing was those Astras were as cheap as chips - lots of companies used them - and they took a fair amount of abuse. If one took an engine failure, it was probably cheaper to scrap the vehicle (because it would have been high mileage and thrashed) than to maintain the service intervals.

 

[E27007]

It should be pointed out that the diesel Vauxhalls (I'm assuming you were running diesels) of that generation were the 1.7 Isuzu engine which had about a 70,000 mile interval for replacing the belt. The thing was those Astras were as cheap as chips - lots of companies used them - and they took a fair amount of abuse. If one took an engine failure, it was probably cheaper to scrap the vehicle (because it would have been high mileage and thrashed) than to maintain the service intervals.

The vehicles were petrol engines, you are correct in your thinking, the fleet manager told me the policy, cheaper to replace a number of damaged cylinder heads than rebelt the fleet, The Union were alerted, as a safety issue, a vehicle with a mechanical breakdown while out on the road, a motorway for example, is a hazard to the driver and the public and should be avoided.
Another mess up by management, safety policy for accidents and fatalities, for employee fatalities, management set a target figure: one person per annum! Another reason for the Union Reps to blow their tops

 

[A0wen]

The vehicles were petrol engines, you are corrwith a mechanical breakdown while out on the road, a motorway for example, is a hazard to the driver and the public and should be avoided.
Another mess up by management, safety policy for accidents and fatalities, for employee fatalities, management set a target figure: one person per annum! Another reason for the Union Reps to blow their tops

I'm *very* surprised that in the 90s petrols were being used as "general hack" vehicles. Most large fleets had switched over to diesel for those because they tended to be rugged (this was before diesels got saddled with DPFs, DMFs etc which affected reliability), more accepting of being thrashed and offered better fuel economy - diesel was much cheaper.

And Astra 1.7Ds were generally reliable, relatively cheap to buy and could rack up 100k miles without trying very hard.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #39 originally in this thread.


Are most of the people in the UK so rich that they can afford private cars?

Before we can put a car on the road, we already need to pay insurance which, for the lowest-risk groups, already costs £700+ upwards per year. And we need to spare a few hundred pounds for general maintenance as well, that's already £1000 p.a. before any depreciation.

Then we come the car price. Of course you can buy very old cars having more than 10 years and 100k miles which have already been fully depreciated at just £1000, but how reliable are they? Anything less than that we have to include depreciation as well, and also the cost of capital. If we buy a 5-year car, the price will be commonly around £4000 - £5000, which if we run it until it becomes 10 years old, the depreciation itself will cost another £1000 p.a.

And finally we need fuel to run the car. Given how expensive petrol price is, at £1.7 per L, even for a very economic car at 8 L / 100 miles, that's £13.6 to run 100 miles. If we commute 30 miles per day for 232 days per year (52 weeks of 5 days work - 28 days of holidays), that's £946.56, nearly another £1000 p.a. even with minimal holiday travel.

The above already totals £3000 p.a., which can already get you nearly 4 annual train tickets between Hendon and Stratford, about 14 miles by car.

And, don't forget, the biggest car expense apart from depreciation is the PARKING!!! A search at Stashbee reveals that the market price of a monthly parking is around £200 - £300 pcm, which is approximately £3000 p.a. So the total cost of car ownership is as high as £6000 p.a. - approximately £9000 of pre-tax salary at 20% income tax rate + 13.5% National Insurance rate. This is absolutely a luxury to most people.

The rent has already eaten most of the annual income for most workers in the UK. For a family requiring a 2-bedroom flat, which usually costs £1200 pcm (which isn't even in the City centre and requiring travel to work), then another £150 for food each adult, and £100 for household bills, a salary of £30000 p.a. - a typical figure of full-time employment - can just get a family of 2 adults and a child the most basic needs of living.

Sorry, but I don't see how a car is affordable for those earning below £50000 p.a. Even if earning that much, the money is better put into buying a home instead, which nowadays costs £400k upwards. Of course it's possible buy a home at just £150k in somewhere in rural Kent, very far away from any decent economic activity, but then you will need to commute by high-speed train as using a car to the City will take you more than 2 hours in peak hours.

Methinks OP suffers from 'London is Entirely Representative of the UK' syndrome. Those figures may be accurate for London but they are wildly out of whack for the rest of country.

 

[DelW]

This seemed a more appropriate thread to reply to a comment by @Techniquest that:

For someone like me, that isn't an option, as I cannot currently drive. Circumstances being what they are, I'm having to soon begin learning. Not through choice, I would rather not do so, I dislike driving and get really wound up last time I tried to do it. Somehow I have to find a way to deal with that, and the anxiety things like parking and hill starts give me!

Wish me luck!

Many modern cars have automated hill start systems which prevent the car rolling backwards when the brakes are released. That eliminates the problem of balancing clutch release against handbrake and accelerator, which many learners and occasional drivers find difficult.

Automated parking is also becoming more common. My car will self-reverse into a kerbside space, and similar systems for car-park spaces are now available too.

Unfortunately I imagine you might still have to demonstrate doing such things manually on a driving test though. But at least if you can afford to buy, lease, or hire a recently built car, that might be the last time you have to do so!

 

[Techniquest]

This seemed a more appropriate thread to reply to a comment by @Techniquest that:


Many modern cars have automated hill start systems which prevent the car rolling backwards when the brakes are released. That eliminates the problem of balancing clutch release against handbrake and accelerator, which many learners and occasional drivers find difficult.

Automated parking is also becoming more common. My car will self-reverse into a kerbside space, and similar systems for car-park spaces are now available too.

Unfortunately I imagine you might still have to demonstrate doing such things manually on a driving test though. But at least if you can afford to buy, lease, or hire a recently built car, that might be the last time you have to do so!

Thanks for that information, I didn't know that before I didn't know of this thread either, but I don't visit this bit of the forum all too often.

Some very fancy tech involved there it would seem, and I agree that all the stuff about finding the biting point etc I'm not great on, I hope the instructor I choose this time will be a good one and that it won't cause any anxiety issues!

 

[philthetube]

Thanks for that information, I didn't know that before I didn't know of this thread either, but I don't visit this bit of the forum all too often.

Some very fancy tech involved there it would seem, and I agree that all the stuff about finding the biting point etc I'm not great on, I hope the instructor I choose this time will be a good one and that it won't cause any anxiety issues!

I know someone who took their test in Spalding, then moved up north and had to take lessons again to learn how to cope with hills.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I know someone who took their test in Spalding, then moved up north and had to take lessons again to learn how to cope with hills.

Ah, yes! There was one tiny little hill, on Thomas Road, where it met the London Road, which ran along the West Bank of the Welland, just by the level crossing with the old March line. The test route had to include it so all learners practiced there. You quickly got into the habit of holding well back there as newbies often rolled backwards whilst frantically revving and trying to emerge onto one of the busiest roads in the town.

 

[route101]

This seemed a more appropriate thread to reply to a comment by @Techniquest that:


Many modern cars have automated hill start systems which prevent the car rolling backwards when the brakes are released. That eliminates the problem of balancing clutch release against handbrake and accelerator, which many learners and occasional drivers find difficult.

Automated parking is also becoming more common. My car will self-reverse into a kerbside space, and similar systems for car-park spaces are now available too.

Unfortunately I imagine you might still have to demonstrate doing such things manually on a driving test though. But at least if you can afford to buy, lease, or hire a recently built car, that might be the last time you have to do so!

I still find it a challenge on hills at times, I always try and put the handbrake on. Everyone else seems to use the footbrake, that gives me the aches and is like a juggling act to me.

 

[DelW]

I still find it a challenge on hills at times, I always try and put the handbrake on. Everyone else seems to use the footbrake, that gives me the aches and is like a juggling act to me.

In my experience at least, hill-start assistant systems need to work from the footbrake. If you've had the handbrake on, you have to apply the footbrake and release the handbrake before it'll work. When you then release the footbrake, it holds the car in position until you pull away forwards.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In my experience at least, hill-start assistant systems need to work from the footbrake

I think it depends on whether it's a manual or electric handbrake. On my Qashqai I have both an electric handbrake and a "hold brake" where the car holds the footbrake on electrically. On hills it doesn't matter which I use, the car doesn't release the brake unless you're at the biting point.

The Qashqai will also parallel and reverse park by itself, but it's such a faff to select the option on the dashboard that one may as well park manually. I think I've used the toy once when I first got the car.

The problem with the electric brakes is one loses the feel. The best way of learning a biting point is to stick a manual handbrake on on a flat, quiet street, and have a play. When you hit the biting point the bonnet of the car will rise by 1-2cm. You can't do that with the electric brakes, and the pull of the brake also seems to mask the biting point as you need to go past the biting point to disengage the brake. I've found similar in a Honda Civic and a VW Golf with electric brakes.

 

[anthony263]

I just had to fork out £2800 to get the head gasket, water pump and timing belt.

Problem is I work on weekends doing the anti social.hour shifts and start st 0915 on a Sunday morning however first train from Pyle to Cardiff isnt till around 0850 so using public transport isn't possible.

 

[gg1]

Thanks for that information, I didn't know that before I didn't know of this thread either, but I don't visit this bit of the forum all too often.

Some very fancy tech involved there it would seem, and I agree that all the stuff about finding the biting point etc I'm not great on, I hope the instructor I choose this time will be a good one and that it won't cause any anxiety issues!

My partner learnt to drive in her late 30s, the one aspect she struggled with more than anything else even after she passed her test was hills starts, and that was on a manual car which did have hill start assist. The solution was an automatic gearbox, she finds our current car so much easier to drive than the last one.

Bearing in mind all electric cars (and most hybrids) are automatics, and in the not too distant future they'll be all that's available, if I was learning now I'd seriously consider choosing the easier automatic only licence. Your financial circumstances are probably the decider, the main downside of automatics is they're more expensive to buy than an equivalent manual car.

 

[RailWonderer]

My partner learnt to drive in her late 30s, the one aspect she struggled with more than anything else even after she passed her test was hills starts, and that was on a manual car which did have hill start assist. The solution was an automatic gearbox, she finds our current car so much easier to drive than the last one.

Bearing in mind all electric cars (and most hybrids) are automatics, and in the not too distant future they'll be all that's available, if I was learning now I'd seriously consider choosing the easier automatic only licence. Your financial circumstances are probably the decider, the main downside of automatics is they're more expensive to buy than an equivalent manual car.

Mileage is a much bigger dependant than manual or automatic. I would say learn manual because it keeps your mind and senses sharp and makes driving an auto even easier.

 

[route101]

In my experience at least, hill-start assistant systems need to work from the footbrake. If you've had the handbrake on, you have to apply the footbrake and release the handbrake before it'll work. When you then release the footbrake, it holds the car in position until you pull away forwards.

Pretty sure my car does not have hill start assistant or I havent realised it has!

 

[Bald Rick]

The trouble with hill start assist is when you drive a car with it for a while, then get into your other car which feels much the same inside but doesn’t have it…