Windermere battery trial

[Bletchleyite]

I read in MR (I think) about an order having been placed with CAF for some additional vehicles for 3-car 331s fitted with batteries for Windermere.

Does anyone know anything more about this?

If this trial is successful, do the batteries have enough capacity to get to Barrow?

 

[themiller]

The March 2020 'Modern Railways' reports that Northern have submitted plans to the DfT for the use of around 12 'Breeze' hydrogen units on services from Middlesbrough; it's proposed that a maintenance/fuelling facility specifically for these will be built at Lackenby, and as the trains will only have a range of about 600 miles they will likely return to the depot each night. Services proposed for operate by these units - which will be formed from 321s with one coach removed and hydrogen storage presumably above floor as the carrying capacity will be approximately the same as for a 2-car DMU - are from Middlesbrough to Nunthorpe, Bishop Auckland, and Saltburn, but the possibility of operating to Whitby and along the Durham coast is also mentioned. The trains will be converted to hydrogen by Alstom at Widnes, so I guess they will be using what has been proved to work in Germany. The timescale for these is unclear; the article reports that the first hydrogen train could be ready for testing in June 2021, but this is based upon the construction of the Lackenby facility starting in January of this year.

Some 331s will have batteries added to work the Windermere branch.

What is a reasonable distance for a battery enhanced EMU to operate beyond the wires? 'Modern Railways' states that the Windermere fleet will be created by adding a fourth battery-carrying car to an existing 3-car set, and that batteries will also be installed beneath the existing centre car; if this works OK on the Windermere branch, could similar conversions work Manchester Airport - Barrow services north of Carnforth, or would this be too far even if a rapid charge facility was to be installed at Barrow? If not - and using this service as an example - would electrification between Carnforth and Arnside be sufficient to enable Manchester Airport - Barrow trains to go over to battery enhanced EMUs?

It’s covered in the ‘RIA letter on electrification thread’ in Infrastructure and Stations.

 

[The Bear]

rapid charge facility was to be installed

Fairly recently a presentation was given to local user groups on the proposed use of these proposed battery powered units on the Lakes Line.
The outline plan was for these units to recharge from the OHLE either enroute to or at Oxenholme and from a charging point installed at Windermere. Apparently the recharge time being quoted as 12mins.
Apparently at the end of said presentation questions were taken.....
It was asked are these units going to have enough power to cope with the frequent stopping & starting on the stiff gradients on the branch, some of which are as much as 1-in-80. In relation to recharge time it was pointed out that in the current timetable a lot of the turnarounds are less than 10mins, some as little as 4mins.
No aswers were forthcoming aparently......

It is worth pointing out that with a recharge time of 12mins assuming they can match the performance of a 156 which have a journeytime of 20mins these units technically won't be able to even fulfil a clockface hourly timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stopping would be done using regen and charge the batteries to be used for starting. Any newish EMU can do that these days (though they normally lob it back into the OHLE). Same with braking down a gradient.

As for the timetable issues, that depends on precisely what timetable is operated. How many units were there to be again, was it 3?

As they are EMUs I would expect performance like, er, an EMU, which is substantially better than a rather sluggish 156.

 

[D365]

Stopping would be done using regen and charge the batteries to be used for starting. Any newish EMU can do that these days (though they normally lob it back into the OHLE). Same with braking down a gradient.

Regen would only replenish 80% at best, off the top of my head, although even that would be very optimistic.

Clearly this is a line that should have been electrified decades ago, why has the political will been non-existent?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clearly this is a line that should have been electrified decades ago, why has the political will been non-existent?

I agree, and goodness knows. It's a really cheap one to do. But it's not the only one - that East West Rail is being built as a diesel line is utterly ridiculous.

That said, battery trains do have other applications and so the trial is worthwhile even if it might be a bit in the wrong place. Burning dead dinosaurs is going to become seriously deprecated in the coming years, and when it does we don't want mass closures because we can't do better than a filthy DMU, whereas the bus industry can roll its fancy electric buses out to replace the trains.

 

[alangla]

Clearly this is a line that should have been electrified decades ago, why has the political will been non-existent?

It was meant to be getting done as part of the Chat Moss & Wigan to St Helens jobs IIRC, but the National Park “spoil the look” brigade got it kyboshed. This is a daft idea, just string the wires up! Doesn’t even need a feed either, just end feed off the OHLE at Oxenholme.

 

[paul1609]

Fairly recently a presentation was given to local user groups on the proposed use of these proposed battery powered units on the Lakes Line.
The outline plan was for these units to recharge from the OHLE either enroute to or at Oxenholme and from a charging point installed at Windermere. Apparently the recharge time being quoted as 12mins.
Apparently at the end of said presentation questions were taken.....
It was asked are these units going to have enough power to cope with the frequent stopping & starting on the stiff gradients on the branch, some of which are as much as 1-in-80. In relation to recharge time it was pointed out that in the current timetable a lot of the turnarounds are less than 10mins, some as little as 4mins.
No aswers were forthcoming aparently......

It is worth pointing out that with a recharge time of 12mins assuming they can match the performance of a 156 which have a journeytime of 20mins these units technically won't be able to even fulfil a clockface hourly timetable.

It sounds a bit like the batteryfication of the Marshlink line. The local rail users were told that the use of battery 377s was impractical because the units couldn't recharge the batteries during the Ore to Brighton journey.
A year later we were told that the 171s were moving to EMT and marshlink were going to get battery 377s that were able to recharge during the Ore to Eastbourne journey and these were also going to cover the Uckfield line.
This was due to an "improvement in battery technology". Nobody has yet told me anywhere in the world I can see this battery technology in use.
As far as I know the prototype unit still hasn't been selected.
I think there will be burning of dead dinosaurs for some years yet.

 

[D365]

It was meant to be getting done as part of the Chat Moss & Wigan to St Helens jobs IIRC, but the National Park “spoil the look” brigade got it kyboshed. This is a daft idea, just string the wires up! Doesn’t even need a feed either, just end feed off the OHLE at Oxenholme.

Spoil the look or (continue to) spoil the air quality...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Spoil the look or (continue to) spoil the air quality...

A DMU an hour is probably a spit in Windermere...

 

[Austriantrain]

A year later we were told that the 171s were moving to EMT and marshlink were going to get battery 377s that were able to recharge during the Ore to Eastbourne journey and these were also going to cover the Uckfield line.
This was due to an "improvement in battery technology". Nobody has yet told me anywhere in the world I can see this battery technology in use..

In Austria, fairly succesful trials in regular passenger service with a modified Desiro Mainline („Cityjet“, Class 4746) have been underway with battery use on several non-electrified lines for about a year, on lines such as the Kamptalbahn (length >40 km, charging possibilities at both ends) and Aspangbahn (Wiener Neustadt - Aspang, more than 30 km each way, charging is only possible during the turn-around at Wiener Neustadt) and many others. I am aware of only one instance when the batteries ran empty, and this was on a very steeply graded line as Part of a Test - the line was always meant to be mostly electrified. Of course, only a trial but the next series of Desiros are to be delivered with batteries for regular service. Mind, we did not have a real Winter this year and a really cold winter would probably be the major challenge.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Japan has run a couple of branch lines with Battery EMU's on trial since 2016 and then converted the whole service on Fukuhoku Yutaka Line when they introduced 18 EMUs (BEC819s) with batteries to cover the 30km non electrified section.
Thus its perfectly feasible to operate BEMUs over the Windermere Branch at 12km and all it needs is to hang some battery packs under the trailers and connect the DC into the existing DC link on the traction converters. Dam site more doable and environmentally friendly than a class 769. What needs sorting with ORR is how to charge the batteries in non electrified areas. Vivarail have showcased there switchable third rail other countries have gone for fixed conductor bars in station areas but sticking 25kv up at station wont be cheap to provide a power connection and probably wiring the whole branch would be more cost effective. So switchable third rail will be most cost effective but ORR will need to be convinced.

 

[Bald Rick]

This was due to an "improvement in battery technology". Nobody has yet told me anywhere in the world I can see this battery technology in use.

Birmingham. Also everywhere you see an electric bus or Tesla. It’s similar technology.

 

[Bald Rick]

It was asked are these units going to have enough power to cope with the frequent stopping & starting on the stiff gradients on the branch, some of which are as much as 1-in-80. In relation to recharge time it was pointed out that in the current timetable a lot of the turnarounds are less than 10mins, some as little as 4mins.

Gradients are irrelevant. Performance on battery is the same as on the OLE (except for range of course).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Gradients are irrelevant. Performance on battery is the same as on the OLE (except for range of course).

The battery just needs to be sized for the duty though as climbing a gradient will consume more kwh than level running. Another big burden of modern units is the air conditioning and heating load at temperature extremes however im sure CAF will have run the numbers having successfully introduced battery trams into Birmingham recently.

Just let them build a demonstrator and they can show us the art of the possible

 

[Bald Rick]

The battery just needs to be sized for the duty though as climbing a gradient will consume more kwh than level running. Another big burden of modern units is the air conditioning and heating load at temperature extremes however im sure CAF will have run the numbers having successfully introduced battery trams into Birmingham recently.

Just let them build a demonstrator and they can show us the art of the possible

Exactly! Stadler have BEMUs with a range of almost 100miles....

 

[Elecman]

Choice of charging method will hinge on the total recharge in terms of VoltAmperes required and how long that will take to provide at either 800 volts dc via 3rd rail or via the pantograph at 25kv ac.
The former would require a ac/dc Rectifier unit and some form of fast recharge unit like the Vivarail system and some heavy duty interlocked switching equipment so the 3rd is only live when the train is present. Or a short section of 25 kv OLE rigid conductor bar installed which can be permanatly live, fed from the local DNO via a static converter installation like at Doncaster to ensure no imbalance on the DNO network in Windermere itself, or via a 25 kv OWIF cable run from Oxenholme ATFS.(OWIF = Oxenholme Windermere Independant Feeder)

 

[hwl]

Only 3 overbridges from Oxenholme till the National Park boundary (or 2 covering the first 50% of the electrified branch distance from Oxenholme), hence some sensible options to extend the wires cheaply part of the way to address some potential issues???

 

[notlob.divad]

but the National Park “spoil the look” brigade got it kyboshed.

I have seen very scant evidence of that. However it was a convenient excuse for the minister of the time (Can't remember his name, think it rhymed with Failing), to spin not doing something as a positive.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Yes. Cancellation of electrification needed spin, so we got tales of aesthetics and promises of novel propulsion.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The National Park actually lobbied for electrification iirc. It was Grayling who spun it.

 

[paul1609]

Choice of charging method will hinge on the total recharge in terms of VoltAmperes required and how long that will take to provide at either 800 volts dc via 3rd rail or via the pantograph at 25kv ac.
The former would require a ac/dc Rectifier unit and some form of fast recharge unit like the Vivarail system and some heavy duty interlocked switching equipment so the 3rd is only live when the train is present. Or a short section of 25 kv OLE rigid conductor bar installed which can be permanatly live, fed from the local DNO via a static converter installation like at Doncaster to ensure no imbalance on the DNO network in Windermere itself, or via a 25 kv OWIF cable run from Oxenholme ATFS.(OWIF = Oxenholme Windermere Independant Feeder)

What sort of current would be drawn from the DNO though. I imagine that pulling that sort of current in rural Windermere is a somewhat different proposition from Doncaster a fairly ex industrial town.

 

[paul1609]

The National Park actually lobbied for electrification iirc. It was Grayling who spun it.

In truth it was network rail that killed it. Massive over budget schemes mean that the business case has been destroyed.
It would be irresponsible of the government not to bring it to a halt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In truth it was network rail that killed it. Massive over budget schemes mean that the business case has been destroyed.
It would be irresponsible of the government not to bring it to a halt.

Being basically the simplest and cheapest project on the table, not completing Windermere was irresponsible.

 

[paul1609]

Being basically the simplest and cheapest project on the table, not completing Windermere was irresponsible.

If even the cheapest scheme is 500% over budget (like Great Western) its irresponsible to continue.
Closure and conversion to a battery powered bus way or tramway scheme would possibly have better benefits for the public money.

 

[notlob.divad]

What sort of current would be drawn from the DNO though. I imagine that pulling that sort of current in rural Windermere is a somewhat different proposition from Doncaster a fairly ex industrial town.

It is 10 miles from Oxenholme to Windermere via the route of the track. It is also 10 miles from the Stalybridge Feeder Station to Ordsall Lane Junction via the route of the track. We know how the latter turned out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If even the cheapest scheme is 500% over budget (like Great Western) its irresponsible to continue.
Closure and conversion to a battery powered bus way or tramway scheme would possibly have better benefits for the public money.

If you think a busway would be sensible, you're mad.

I have toyed with the idea of removing the through services and changing it to a tramway, which could perhaps be extended down the road to Bowness and have longer operating hours e.g. better connections from London on Friday evenings and potentially a more frequent service. This might actually provide more benefits, but would certainly be more expensive at the start, so is unlikely to find favour. (I won't carry on down this line of discussion in this thread, but if anyone does want to discuss it further Speculative Ideas is that way -> )

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is 10 miles from Oxenholme to Windermere via the route of the track. It is also 10 miles from the Stalybridge Feeder Station to Ordsall Lane Junction via the route of the track. We know how the latter turned out.

Windermere can take only one 4-car unit at most at a time. Not even comparable.

 

[notlob.divad]

Windermere can take only one 4-car unit at most at a time. Not even comparable.

The point was if a feed was needed down to Windermere to provide re-charging capability, it could be done. I personally don't think it would be needed, but then I also thing they should stop pratting around and put the full OHLE up before continue with the other routes in the North West.

 

[edwin_m]

Windermere can take only one 4-car unit at most at a time. Not even comparable.

The point was if a feed was needed down to Windermere to provide re-charging capability, it could be done. I personally don't think it would be needed, but then I also thing they should stop pratting around and put the full OHLE up before continue with the other routes in the North West.

But laying a thinner cable for less current is only a bit cheaper, as most of the cost is in the cable route and logistics rather than the cable itself. And Kettering to Market Harborough suggests that laying an extension lead costs about the same as providing proper OLE.