Witness Statement

[fredlaycock]

Today I received a witness statement after an altercation with the ticket inspector officers at St Albans station - I frequently travel between St Albans and Radlett as my sister works there - having explained this dynamic to the ticket inspector officers they seemed to believe that I was using this as an excuse to evade the fare. I had started my journey from tapping in at algate, changed to Farringdon, tapped in to transfer to the thameslink - whilst on the train - I had a moment of madness deciding whether I remembered I had tapped in or not - but I did end up buying a radlett ticket for the same price. In essence, I paid for a radlett ticket on top of the standard faire - when I showed that I had a valid ticket by showing that my card was actively being used to pay for the journey as I had tapped in - the ticket officer denied my the opportunity to prove this - stating that the radlett ticket was evidence of evading the faire. This is not true - incomplete journeys are still charged the maximum faire - in essence my own stupidity meant that I have received this as I realised too late that I’d forgotten - this wasn’t a malicious intent - just a lapse in remembrance - equally I shouldn’t have bought a radlett ticket- instead i should’ve bought the entire faire. What should I do next - i do frequently travel to and from radlett as my sister works there and I have friends there - they didn’t believe me when I stated these past journeys were legitimate and not an example of the suggested evasion that they gave me today. Any suggestions for a reply when I receive the written notice? thanks again - feel free to criticise my stupidity, again

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 16:35 ==

Today I received a witness statement after an altercation with the ticket inspector officers at St Albans station - I frequently travel between St Albans and Radlett as my sister works there - having explained this dynamic to the ticket inspector officers they seemed to believe that I was using this as an excuse to evade the fare. I had started my journey from tapping in at algate, changed to Farringdon, tapped in to transfer to the thameslink - whilst on the train - I had a moment of madness deciding whether I remembered I had tapped in or not - but I did end up buying a radlett ticket for the same price. In essence, I paid for a radlett ticket on top of the standard faire - when I showed that I had a valid ticket by showing that my card was actively being used to pay for the journey as I had tapped in - the ticket officer denied my the opportunity to prove this - stating that the radlett ticket was evidence of evading the faire. This is not true - incomplete journeys are still charged the maximum faire - in essence my own stupidity meant that I have received this as I realised too late that I’d forgotten - this wasn’t a malicious intent - just a lapse in remembrance - equally I shouldn’t have bought a radlett ticket- instead i should’ve bought the entire faire. What should I do next - i do frequently travel to and from radlett as my sister works there and I have friends there - they didn’t believe me when I stated these past journeys were legitimate and not an example of the suggested evasion that they gave me today. Any suggestions for a reply when I receive the written notice? thanks again - feel free to criticise my stupidity, again

Please tell me if incomplete journeys are charged or not, from what I remember they are - and I have always been charged accordingly. If this is not the case - I still completed the trip by tapping out after the altercation - to prove that I had actually tapped into farringdon and that it wasn’t the case that I’d tapped out and would receive the maximum - should i send this as evidence too?

 

[island]

Did you attempt to exit the station at St Albans using your contactless card?

 

[John R]

Can I check that you were travelling to St Albans - it's not entirely clear. And that you bought a ticket from Radlett to St Albans, which the inspector thought was a short fare?

 

[fredlaycock]

Can I check that you were travelling to St Albans - it's not entirely clear. And that you bought a ticket from Radlett to St Albans, which the inspector thought was a short fare?

I had bought a ticket to St Albans from Radlett (the next stop along) - whilst having my card validated from Algate onwards - I transferred from farringdon on platform 4 onto the Thameslink - seeing the ticket inspectors I showed my physical ticket which she validated but it wasn’t being used to faire dodge. It was being used as a ticket for later in the day to get a train back from Radlett after getting a lift there.
In essence, I did forget that I had an ongoing journey - and the action of showing the wrong ticket can be considered evasion I understand this.
The inspector refused to verify with that I had an ongoing transaction - and did settle for the fact that I had this shorter ticket.
I showed the wrong ticket - this ticket was meant for later use - I was in a rush and was late for work..
Again, I frequently visit radlett, and this was misunderstood..
As soon as the operator scanned that ticket and took those details despite me saying I’d tapped in they wouldn’t let me rectify it by tapping out, no.

 

[alholmes]

Register your contactless card on the TfL website, then you’ll be able to view and download a statement which shows all of the times you tap in and out with that card, and the fares charged.

 

[John R]

It was being used as a ticket for later in the day to get a train back from Radlett after getting a lift there.

So you bought a ticket from Radlett to St Albans (whilst on the way from Aldgate to St Albans) to use later in the day, as you were going to have a lift back to Radlett, but would need to come back to St Albans on the train? (Except you implied you bought it as you forget whether you had tapped in.) I can see why inspectors (or indeed investigators) would find that story rather far-fetched, and assume you were short-faring.

 

[furlong]

All very confusing still.

A physical ticket (not a digital one) obtained when?

Obtain the contactless journey history, and look at it alongside your ticket purchase history and consider how this is going to look to an outsider.

Will this show contactless journeys from Aldate to Farringdon alongside tickets from Radlett to St. Albans with an unpaid for hole in the middle?

If these are tickets with a square barcode on them, the train company will also be able to see when and where they were scanned.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's really unclear what has happened here. You say you bought the ticket because you didn't know if you'd paid for your journey from Farringdon - but if this was the case, why did you not buy it from Farringdon?

How have you managed to get a physical ticket - where was this bought from? If you bought while on the train, it would be an e-ticket as you'd have done so on your phone.

 

[fredlaycock]

It shouldn’t show that - as when I exited the I tapped my card anyway despite the “witness” paper being a ticket in its own right - to prove that the journey was validated form algate and then a transfer from farringdon when i was actually allowed to use my contactless when I was able to go through.

The rad-sta ticket was meant for later use - but as i had forgotten whether I had tapped in until the ticket inspector suggested i had an invalid ticket - i bought that ticket earlier on in the journey (at farringdon) and mistakenly used it to exit as the ticket inspectors were manning the gates with the qr -code or ticket reader. obviously they questioned whether i’d tapped in as it hadn’t been validated as tapped in from radlett to which i stated i’d just validated the wrong ticket and i’d like to prove Ive been making a contactless journey but they didn’t let me.
in essence mistakenly using a ticket valid for later in the day as my exit ticket - forgetting i had a valid ongoing journey

 

[Haywain]

You state that you travelled from Aldgate where you touched in, and you touched your card at Farringdon. That would have ended your journey, meaning you had no onward ticket.

As for the Radlett ticket, you have given three different versions of why and when you bought it which makes it difficult for us to know what is true.

 

[chrisjo]

I fear that under the circumstances your explanation to the inspector may have been even less coherent than the explanation(s) you have given us here, so I'm not even slightly surprised that he acted as he did.

 

[MotCO]

There is a saying 'when in a hole, stop digging'. I think that there are some inconsistencies in your story; if you want us to help you, please level with us, tell the truth, and we can advise accordingly. We will not be judgemental.
If I have misunderstood you, I apologise.

 

[fredlaycock]

The bottom line is - I bought a ticket from radlett to st albans - the intention of this is irrelevant as per the thameslink website. It was used and validated by an inspector, after notifying me that it hasn’t been validated at an entry barrier - I stated I had equally tapped in at a transfer point (which it says to continue your journey you must tap). I tapped to confirm I was on a new train - meaning I should have a valid ongoing card transaction with tfl and national rail to prove it was an eligible journey if the ticket was validated at the barrier. By preventing that - i wasn’t allowed to make amends instantly - and rectify the mistake i made prior. im not trying to circumvent the system, I just showed the only mobile ticket i had to someone standing with a ticket reader - realised I had used the wrong ticket - and wasn’t allowed in prove or rectify that mistake.

 

[AlterEgo]

The bottom line is - I bought a ticket from radlett to st albans - the intention of this is irrelevant as per the thameslink website.

No, it's really quite relevant, if it turns out that you don't have any ticket at all from Farringdon.

Was the paper ticket you bought at Farringdon a single or a return? Was it a physical ticket or a mobile ticket? Because if I understand the thread properly you've claimed it is both so far.

You have also, it seems, claimed you bought the Radlett/St Albans ticket both on the train, and at Farringdon.

It would be better to start again, list, in bullet points, exactly and precisely what has happened and exactly what tickets are involved.

 

[fredlaycock]

To my understanding - forgive me If im wrong thst the tfl and national rail contactless payments are intertwined - including to st albans. I tapped in through the barriers at aldgate, used the platform card reader to validate a change of trains, got to st albans in which i presented another ticket (the wrong one) at the barrier to the ticket warden (upon acknowledging it was wrong - I stated that the whole journey had been tapped via card at each station - and to complete the journey I would just have to validate my card on the contactless reader at the st albans exit - in which the ticket inspector denied my the opportunity to show it was being used. this is also under the assumption that these members of staffed are equipped to scan members cards to check an ongoing journey with tfl/thameslink

 

[Haywain]

used the platform card reader to validate a change of trains,

Touching at that point ends your journey from Aldgate.

 

[30907]

Touching at that point ends your journey from Aldgate.

...meaning that you were in fact travelling without a valid ticket, even if unintentionally, and therefore committed an offence.
If you have used contactless before in this way, the sequence of taps will show a Zone 1 charge followed by a maximum fare. As you eventually tapped "out" today, this pattern will show up for today's journey as well.
(Deleted as apparently this reader is non-standard.)

Fortunately, GTR are known for being willing to settle out of court, even if your journey and scan history show that this isn't your first offence.

 

[Hadders]

A few observations:

I was wondering how you got through the barriers at Aldgate, but then you say you tapped your card to get through. How would you forget whether you touched in at Aldgate - in my experience the barriers are not left open at that station.

Next, you tapped on the standalone validators at Farringdon. There is no need to do this, those validators should only be used if you are changing from using contactless/oyster to a traditional ticket (to save having to exit and re-enter). I believe that these validators are set up for what is known as 'continuation exit' which mans that whilst touching on the validator at Farringdon would've finished your journey, if you subsequently touched out at St Albans the system would have realised what you'd done and charge you for a Aldgate to St Albans journey rather than Aldgate to Farringdon and a [no touch in] to St Albans journey.

Whilst on the train you couldn't remember if you'd bought a ticket so purchased a Radlett to St Albans ticket. An altercation took place about this ticket. Why didn't you just present your contactless card?

At face value, this looks like a case of doughnutting, purchasing short distance tickets at either end of a journey to get through the barriers leaving a hole in the middle. If you'd touched out using your contactless card at St Albans then you'd be able to show that the fare from Aldgate to St Albans had been paid but if you didn't touch out all it's going to show is an Aldgate to Farringdon journey.

If your online ticket purchasing history is checked will it show frequent purchases of Radlett to St Albans tickets?
Would you contactless journey history show Aldgate to Farringdon charges on a frequent basis or would it show Aldate to St Albans charges?
If it does, would the times of the journeys support the suspicion that you've doughnutted?

What happens next is GTR will write to you saying that they've received a report, are considering prosecuting, but asking for you for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. If you can evidence that you'd paid for the complete journey from Aldgate to St Albans, from your TfL journey history, then I would tell GTR that in your reply and enclose a copy. Technically speaking, you didn't present a valid ticket when asked to do so (the Radlett to St Albans ticket was not valid for your journey) so you have comitted an offence. I expect GTR will offer an out of court settlement as long as you co-operate with them.

When GTR's letter arrives post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you.

 

[furlong]

...meaning that you were in fact travelling without a valid ticket, even if unintentionally, and therefore committed an offence.
If you have used contactless before in this way, the sequence of taps will show a Zone 1 charge followed by a maximum fare. As you eventually tapped "out" today, this pattern will show up for today's journey as well.

No - it's not that simple. There's no maximum fare here and no offence caused by touching the reader at Farringdon. (Hadders has just posted the rest of what I was writing about continuation exits!) The system is far too complicated for people to understand if they should or should not touch that reader so it has to accept both options.

(It's also a very tricky situation to prosecute too.)

 

[Haywain]

It's also a very tricky situation to prosecute too.

I'm not convinced. The OP showed a ticket that wasn't valid for the journey ha had taken. And whilst a prosecution might not be easy in your view it would still have to be defended, and that us also very tricky. I would advise the OP to cooperate with GTR and there is a good chance of achieving a relatively economical settlement.

Having said that, if the OP was later intending to travel to Radlett as they claim, why would they do so using an eTicket rather than continuing to use contactless? This again makes me doubt what we are being told.

 

[furlong]

The OP showed a ticket that wasn't valid for the journey had taken.

That's not really itself an offence and it was surely valid - we're told there were two valid overlapping tickets. The byelaws aren't much help so a prosecutor is really left having to prove the (confused) actions demonstrated an intention not to pay, which gets very technical quickly - while normally the act of touching the contactless card would demonstrate the opposite, a clear intention to pay, and indeed consistent with that the fare was indeed paid (but never "previously" with contactless) - while I think the defence need only introduce reasonable doubt that it wasn't deliberately-calculated doughnutting designed with a plausible explanation to fall back upon. Complex for both sides, in other words. Worse, it's suggested the inspector might not have recorded sufficient details at the time for the back office to realise the difficulty in following the most common byelaw approach.

What I'm really saying is, unless something got conceded e.g. in an interview, any dodgy-looking track record that's available on the contactless and/or "paper" tickets would likely prove crucial in what happens, to indicate whether it was calculated or spontaneous. I'd suggest the OP's approach to this ought to depend on what they know that data will show the train company.