Witton station rape

[LowLevel]

For those who can't see the picture

Source: The Metro

'A double manhunt is underway after a 15 year old girl was raped twice in separate attacks by two men. Detectives said the teenager was first assaulted in a secluded part of Witton rail station, near the Aston Villa football ground, between 7pm Tuesday and 2am the next day. The victim had walked to the station with a friend, but was led away by a man who approached her. Shortly after the attack the girl walked out of the station and flagged down a vehicle for help. But after getting in the car she was then raped a second time by another man'.

As a railwayman this absolutely sickens and hurts me that it's happened on our network.

But surely London Midland should have a case to answer here - when they took over their franchise Witton was staffed from first train to last. It is now completely unmanned. I'm not saying a booking clerk would have necessarily prevented this from happening, but the staff presence may have discouraged it and there would certainly have been a friendly presence there to seek help from. Instead someone was raped on our railway and had to resort to flagging down a passing car for help, with disastrous consequences.

This is as damning an indictment as you need for the consequences of totally withdrawing staff from what are much less than pleasant inner city areas. Even if the booking office was closed a London Overground style manning arrangement should have been in place.

 

[CheesyChips]

No, LM don't have a case to answer. The only people with a case to answer are the rapists.

 

[LowLevel]

No, LM don't have a case to answer. The only people with a case to answer are the rapists.

I do take your point literally speaking - but it's infuriating the amount of opposition these changes get, they crack on regardless, and then things like this happen and there won't be any comeback.

 

[bramling]

I do take your point literally speaking - but it's infuriating the amount of opposition these changes get, they crack on regardless, and then things like this happen and there won't be any comeback.

I can see both sides of the discussion. It shouldn't take staff nor CCTV to prevent someone being raped. However in the real world things are sadly different.

Is Witton a particularly bad area? I can certainly think of worse.

 

[theageofthetra]

Where is some cctv screen grabs or description of the suspects?

 

[AlterEgo]

This is as damning an indictment as you need for the consequences of totally withdrawing staff from what are much less than pleasant inner city areas. Even if the booking office was closed a London Overground style manning arrangement should have been in place.

The London Overground staffing arrangement was done in conjunction with the removal of guards. LO got better, walk-thru stock with CCTV, better-lit, cleaner, tidier stations, and a staff presence on every station too. Those improvements eroded some of the business case around the necessity of the guard.

Crime has fallen on LO.

I look forward to a LO-style staffing arrangement everywhere on urban routes - I think it is important to have someone available in some capacity - as long as it's done sustainably and sensibly. It is hard to imagine someone being sexually assaulted twice at any LO station.

 

[bramling]

The London Overground staffing arrangement was done in conjunction with the removal of guards. LO got better, walk-thru stock with CCTV, better-lit, cleaner, tidier stations, and a staff presence on every station too. Those improvements eroded some of the business case around the necessity of the guard.

Crime has fallen on LO.

I look forward to a LO-style staffing arrangement everywhere on urban routes - I think it is important to have someone available in some capacity - as long as it's done sustainably and sensibly. It is hard to imagine someone being sexually assaulted twice at any LO station.

There's also the small factor that LO stations are generally extremely busy, almost round the clock.

Personally however I'm not so convinced their staffing model is the best, I find a lot of their staff particularly clueless to the point where they get in the way at times.

 

[AlterEgo]

Personally however I'm not so convinced their staffing model is the best, I find a lot of their staff particularly clueless to the point where they get in the way at times.

Yes, they are useless from experience! But the level of staffing probably does prevent or deter some crime.

 

[Joe Paxton]

There's also the small factor that LO stations are generally extremely busy, almost round the clock.

One of the reasons patronage has increased so much on LO routes is because it offers a much more pleasant travelling experience, and that includes an increased feeling of security.

Of course that's not the whole picture - passenger numbers were increasing beforehand (though at a slower rate), but I'd strongly suggest that was despite of the ambience than because of it! (There were all sorts of other changes in London that brought on increased pax numbers in the Silverstink era, e.g. more traffic congestion and parking restrictions, decreasing car ownership, changing travel and work patterns, changing demography etc.)

I'm quite familiar with what parts of the LO network were like beforehand - I wouldn't go back, and I doubt 99% of other passengers would either.

 

[Robertj21a]

This sounds like a desperate attempt to find something to blame LM for, regardless of the fact that it could have happened anywhere at all.

 

[LowLevel]

This sounds like a desperate attempt to find something to blame LM for, regardless of the fact that it could have happened anywhere at all.

For taking a manned first service to last station in a tough area and rendering it unstaffed despite no small amount of dissent? Absolutely.

I don't blame them for the crime committed, I do however harbour ill feeling towards them for choosing to totally remove any railway presence that could have helped prevent or at least mitigate said crime.

It is a fact that 10 years ago at Witton there would have been a station assistant to provide help and It's entirely down to London Midland (against the wishes of the Passenger Transport Authority who until the Government removed it's powers specified staffing levels) that that facility was withdrawn.

 

[Dr Hoo]

For taking a manned first service to last station in a tough area and rendering it unstaffed despite no small amount of dissent? Absolutely.

I don't blame them for the crime committed, I do however harbour ill feeling towards them for choosing to totally remove any railway presence that could have helped prevent or at least mitigate said crime.

It is a fact that 10 years ago at Witton there would have been a station assistant to provide help and It's entirely down to London Midland (against the wishes of the Passenger Transport Authority who until the Government removed it's powers specified staffing levels) that that facility was withdrawn.

Presumably the ability of LM as franchise operator to propose and implement station staffing reductions dates from the franchise change in late-2007, back in the post-SRA, early DfT era under Gordon Brown and Ruth Kelly?

I suppose that that was before the London Overground urban staffing model had had the chance to prove itself.

 

[robbeech]

For those who can't see the picture

As a railwayman human this absolutely sickens and hurts me that it's happened on our network planet.

Altered that there for you my friend.

 

[pemma]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...sg=AFQjCNFZ_zSnadFHqy_Yt4_MDmzRKb2Z4w&ampcf=1

Can't copy the story because I'm on a phone but from reading that account it sounds like she was with her friend but left her friend to go off with a guy who led her to a secluded spot. She wasn't dragged off kicking and screaming so that could have happened and gone undetected even if station staff were there.

 

[westcoaster]

I can't help but feel, it's connected somehow. Maybe the assailants knew each other. What man would subject a young lady to such an awful crime.

 

[pemma]

I can't help but feel, it's connected somehow. Maybe the assailants knew each other. What man would subject a young lady to such an awful crime.

It's possible. Criminals often work together but make it look like they aren't together. However, it's also possible they were two separate sick *******s.

 

[crewmeal]

The Birmingham Evening Mail have a piccy of one of the perpetrators.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/police-investigating-two-separate-rapes-13402279

 

[Andrew1395]

The London Overground staffing arrangement was done in conjunction with the removal of guards. LO got better, walk-thru stock with CCTV, better-lit, cleaner, tidier stations, and a staff presence on every station too. Those improvements eroded some of the business case around the necessity of the guard.

Crime has fallen on LO.

I look forward to a LO-style staffing arrangement everywhere on urban routes - I think it is important to have someone available in some capacity - as long as it's done sustainably and sensibly. It is hard to imagine someone being sexually assaulted twice at any LO station.

The Watford DC lines went DOO and guards removed long before London Overground took them on. I have to say that women family members and friends found travelling on the DC before London Overground disconcerting. They never perceived it safe after the evening peak. It is now a busier railway, the trains, stations and staffing improvements have made them feeling safer and secure. Which has had the benefit that they use the railway more. All these sort of
improvements will not prevent the depraved from committing sickening crimes, but it may deter them from stalking for victims on the railway.

 

[Starmill]

Stations can be secure without staff. Lots of Metrolink stops have awards for security built into their design. This includes things like visibility and ensuring the proper lighting is in place, and CCTV that's reliable and useful.

Security can come from positive design as well as just from having staff (or police) in an area.

It seems that Witton suffers from a lack of either.

An unstaffed station in this area probably could be safe (or safer), but this station is clearly not designed with that in mind. I am sure this causes lots of other problems, including with ticket buying and journey planning, passenger assistance and so on.

 

[swt class 450]

No, LM don't have a case to answer. The only people with a case to answer are the rapists.

London Midland certainly do have a case to answer. If Govia wasn't such an appalling company that was obsessed with making staff cuts then this station would have been far safer. Any station which goes from being staffed from first train to last train to being completely unstaffed is of course going to see a huge reduction in safety. If London Midland had kept this station staffed from first train to last train then this may never have happened and it may have discouraged these types of people from the area.

 

[pemma]

If London Midland had kept this station staffed from first train to last train then this may never have happened and it may have discouraged these types of people from the area.

Just looking at the times of trains for Witton, in the evenings there can be up to 49 minutes between departures e.g. after the 21:07 departure the next departure is 21:56. From my experience of staffed stations long gaps like that are when the ticket office staff take their breaks or go off to do other duties and can't easily be found and those are also the times when they'll be no passengers waiting around at the station.

 

[Moonshot]

London Midland certainly do have a case to answer. If Govia wasn't such an appalling company that was obsessed with making staff cuts then this station would have been far safer. Any station which goes from being staffed from first train to last train to being completely unstaffed is of course going to see a huge reduction in safety. If London Midland had kept this station staffed from first train to last train then this may never have happened and it may have discouraged these types of people from the area.

London Midland have increased staff numbers from 2340 in 2010/11 to 2563 in 2016/17 ...pretty much a 10% increase.

 

[Moonshot]

Just looking at the times of trains for Witton, in the evenings there can be up to 49 minutes between departures e.g. after the 21:07 departure the next departure is 21:56. From my experience of staffed stations long gaps like that are when the ticket office staff take their breaks or go off to do other duties and can't easily be found and those are also the times when they'll be no passengers waiting around at the station.

There is also a help point on the station.

 

[Steddenm]

BBC News reporting that two men have been arrested:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-40763620

Two men have been arrested after a girl was raped twice on the same night.

The 14-year-old was attacked at Witton station in Birmingham on Tuesday night and was then raped again after flagging down a vehicle as she left the station in the early hours of Wednesday.

Two men, aged 35 and 27, have been held on suspicion of rape relating to the first attack. Police are still hunting another man over the second rape.
He is described as about 5ft 6in, thick set and with large biceps.

Det Ch Insp Tony Fitzpatrick, from British Transport Police, appealed for anyone with information to contact the force.

"Our investigation into the second incident in the vehicle continues at a pace.

"The young victim was raped for a second time in a vehicle close to Witton station at approximately 2am [on Wednesday].

"I am still looking to hear from anyone who lives locally to Witton and saw a young girl walking by herself during the early hours of Wednesday morning."

 

[CC 72100]

London Midland certainly do have a case to answer. If Govia wasn't such an appalling company that was obsessed with making staff cuts then this station would have been far safer. Any station which goes from being staffed from first train to last train to being completely unstaffed is of course going to see a huge reduction in safety. If London Midland had kept this station staffed from first train to last train then this may never have happened and it may have discouraged these types of people from the area.

Overly-emotive and without fact post much? :roll:

 

[Robertj21a]

London Midland certainly do have a case to answer. If Govia wasn't such an appalling company that was obsessed with making staff cuts then this station would have been far safer. Any station which goes from being staffed from first train to last train to being completely unstaffed is of course going to see a huge reduction in safety. If London Midland had kept this station staffed from first train to last train then this may never have happened and it may have discouraged these types of people from the area.

Someone else just trying to have a go at LM when it could have happened anywhere, at any time, to anybody. People also have to recognise that they have a responsibility to look after their own safety - it's ridiculous to suggest that any business should have to ensure staff are always present 'just in case'.

 

[Robertj21a]

BBC News reporting that two men have been arrested:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-40763620

So - 14 years old - a girl - out and about at 2am........ That doesn't sound like something I'd allow for my daughter.

 

[LowLevel]

Someone else just trying to have a go at LM when it could have happened anywhere, at any time, to anybody. People also have to recognise that they have a responsibility to look after their own safety - it's ridiculous to suggest that any business should have to ensure staff are always present 'just in case'.

Sorry but on the railway that is pretty much exactly what they are there for.

They chose to go from having a manned station from an unmanned station, evidently without making any appropriate safeguards to allow it to be a safe place to be.

The fact they made that choice means they should, if appropriate, be made to answer for it.

 

[maire23]

So - 14 years old - a girl - out and about at 2am........ That doesn't sound like something I'd allow for my daughter.

She was initially abducted at around 7pm and they held her until 2am when she managed to escape.

 

[Moonshot]

Sorry but on the railway that is pretty much exactly what they are there for.

They chose to go from having a manned station from an unmanned station, evidently without making any appropriate safeguards to allow it to be a safe place to be.

The fact they made that choice means they should, if appropriate, be made to answer for it.

Worth pointing out that the perpertrators have been actually caught ....no doubt aided by CCTV