WMR Class 196 Build and Implementation

[Mitchell Hurd]

I wonder how much of a fight they'll be for table seats on the 196's - I'll be keen on sitting in one of the cab end window table seats. Mind you, I always aim to be at the platform in good time - in some cases for when the train comes in so I should be fine.

 

[Class172]

I wonder how much of a fight they'll be for table seats on the 196's - I'll be keen on sitting in one of the cab end window table seats. Mind you, I always aim to be at the platform in good time - in some cases for when the train comes in so I should be fine.

Hard to tell from the pictures but are there six tables per carriage?

 

[Martin222002]

Other than the lack of armrests it looks good. Definitely a kick in the proverbials to Northern for can't ("can't be bothered paying to") align seats to windows - that looks 100% to me?

It's not so much the seating layout but more the window layout. The amount, size and spacing of the windows on the 196s is completely different to that on the 195s and 197s. This shows that WMR has obviously put a lot of thought into their 196s, and that they've also had decent amount of financial backing for it to happen.

 

[py_megapixel]

Not a fan of that interior colour scheme personally. But otherwise it looks really nice.

Many on these forum seem to blame CAF for the 195 issues: ironing boards, poor window alignment, lack of end doors, and even the trains being too short. This frustrates me, as in most cases the TOC specifies the general design, so while CAF could be blamed for things like the door faults, they certainly cannot be blamed for building exactly what Northern paid them to build: a fleet of 2 and 3-car DMUs with no gangways, poor-quality uncomfortable seating and no consideration to window alignment.

This is proof of my theory that Arriva Rail North simply cheaped out, playing on the fact that whatever they ordered, it would be better for the passenger than the rubbish that had been trundling around the north for the past years. They placed an order for the bare minimum they could get away with to still win the franchise, and got the bare minimum they could get away with. Abellio/JRE/Mitsui placed a sensible order with passenger experience and maximum capacity in mind, and got what looks like a reasonable fleet of trains.
Won't speak too soon about reliability though.

I'm also a fan of the return of sane TOPS classifications! The first was 195, then the next was 196, then 197... unlike 345, then 710, then 701, 777 then 745 then 755, or 707 then 700 then 717.

Anyway enough of this ranting from me, I look forward to seeing them in service!

 

[Energy]

Many on these forum seem to blame CAF for the ironing boards, poor window alignment, lack of end doors, and even the trains being too short.

The trains being too short? Do people not realise that CAF don't decide a lot of it? Its like complaining that the car your parents bought isn't the size of a Range Rover when what they ordered is a Dacia Sandero.

This is proof of my theory that Arriva Rail North simply cheaped out, playing on the fact that whatever they ordered, it would be better for the passenger than the rubbish that had been trundling around the north for the past years. They placed an order for the bare minimum they could get away with to still win the franchise, and got the bare minimum they could get away with.

I would have to agree, CAFs are known to be cheap but were still a good choice (only choice for self powered at the time excluding flirts which can't have end doors), they were just specced badly.

It will be nice to see what a well specced CAF in the UK is like.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Hard to tell from the pictures but are there six tables per carriage?

6??? That sounds good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not so much the seating layout but more the window layout. The amount, size and spacing of the windows on the 196s is completely different to that on the 195s and 197s. This shows that WMR has obviously put a lot of thought into their 196s, and that they've also had decent amount of financial backing for it to happen.

Window/door positioning and size on CAF stock appears to be flexible - even the CS stock has quite a bit of variation between vehicle types and even sides of the same vehicle. I therefore contend that for Northern it fell into the "can't be bothered" bracket.

 

[Halish Railway]

The interior definitely reminds me of a Class 395 in terms of layout, or a Voyager in terms of the seats between the doors facing towards the middle. Do we know if the airline-style seats will have a pull-down table? That would definitely decrease the competition for tables.

Anyway, its quite the contrast to the interior of a 172.

 

[superalbs]

The interior definitely reminds me of a Class 395 in terms of layout, or a Voyager in terms of the seats between the doors facing towards the middle. Do we know if the airline-style seats will have a pull-down table? That would definitely decrease the competition for tables.

Anyway, its quite the contrast to the interior of a 172.

Yeah they do have little tables.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I would have to agree, CAFs are known to be cheap but were still a good choice (only choice for self powered at the time excluding flirts which can't have end doors), they were just specced badly.

It will be nice to see what a well specced CAF in the UK is like.

Class 397? Admittedly the Nova 2 does suffer from the same interrogation centre seats (Fainsa Sophias) as the Nova 1 and Nova 3 but apparently the Nova 2 does have the seats lined up with the windows (I haven't managed to try any of the Nova fleets out for myself yet, though have been on a GWR 800 and a Northern 195). Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that the class 196 has smaller windows than the class 195 due to WMT requesting a tight seat pitch to squeese in more rows of seats. At least they went of the effort of changing the windows to allow alignment with the tight seat spacing though I suppose, and unit end gangways makes a hell of a lot more sense than Northern's 195s.

 

[Energy]

Class 397? Admittedly the Nova 2 does suffer from the same interrogation centre seats (Fainsa Sophias) as the Nova 1 and Nova 3 but apparently the Nova 2 does have the seats lined up with the windows (I haven't managed to try any of the Nova fleets out for myself yet, though have been on a GWR 800 and a Northern 195). Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that the class 196 has smaller windows than the class 195 due to WMT requesting a tight seat pitch to squeese in more rows of seats. At least they went of the effort of changing the windows to allow alignment with the tight seat spacing though I suppose, and unit end gangways makes a hell of a lot more sense than Northern's 195s.

Good point, it will be nice to see what a well specced commuter CAF is like.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good point, it will be nice to see what a well specced commuter CAF is like.

It looks to be very similar to the interior of the GA FLIRTs other than the armrests and high floor.

 

[TrainTrackJack]

I live on the Birmingham - Hereford line and im not looking forward to the introduction of these. the turbos are lovely, nice seats, and they look decent. the new 196s are horrible in every way. theve been designed for the 'as many passengers in one train' principle, not for comfort. I have been on a 195/ 331 and the seats are not very pleasant so im sure these wont differ. however I woud rather have 195s as they look alright! also 196101 has been delivered to Tyseley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I live on the Birmingham - Hereford line and im not looking forward to the introduction of these. the turbos are lovely, nice seats, and they look decent. the new 196s are horrible in every way. theve been designed for the 'as many passengers in one train' principle, not for comfort. I have been on a 195/ 331 and the seats are not very pleasant so im sure these wont differ. however I woud rather have 195s as they look alright! also 196101 has been delivered to Tyseley.

The seats do differ, very much so. They are the FISA LEAN, a much more expensive seat than the "ironing board" used in the 195/331, and very similar to the Grammer E3000 used on Desiros. It was the seat chosen by the Northern passenger survey which they went on to ignore.

Obviously not at the moment, but if you wanted to try one out the East Anglia FLIRTs have them.

That said I would agree with the idea that the CAF Civity DMUs are a "poor man's Turbostar", though with one key advantage - massive overhead racks.

 

[TrainTrackJack]

also, if one was to breakdown say on the snow hill lines, a 172 cannot rescue it as they have dellner rather than BSI couplers which is a stupid decision. bring back hook and screw!

 

[Energy]

also, if one was to breakdown say on the snow hill lines, a 172 cannot rescue it as they have dellner rather than BSI couplers which is a stupid decision. bring back hook and screw!

They aren't a small fleet so another would likely be available in case one breaks down. I think if more 172 were available to be ordered, they would have been chosen but they weren't available at the time so CAFs were the only option as Stadler don't have end doors (I don't think bimode was an option for Aventras yet).

 

[TrainTrackJack]

They aren't a small fleet so another would likely be available in case one breaks down. I think if more 172 were available to be ordered, they would have been chosen but they weren't available at the time so CAFs were the only option as Stadler don't have end doors (I don't think bimode was an option for Aventras yet).

the 172s are still in bombardiers catalogue, they could have chosen more. however I guess they don't want an all mechanical transmission fleet.

 

[Energy]

the 172s are still in bombardiers catalogue, they could have chosen more. however I guess they don't want an all mechanical transmission fleet.

Source?

 

[Bletchleyite]

the 172s are still in bombardiers catalogue, they could have chosen more. however I guess they don't want an all mechanical transmission fleet.

They're not. Bombardier (or indeed I think Siemens) are no longer taking orders for any kind of DMU. The options on offer are CAF or Stadler.

The 196s have the same mechanical transmission as the 172s.

 

[TrainTrackJack]

Source?

The Railway Magazine/ Todays Railways

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Railway Magazine/ Todays Railways

Edition, page etc?

 

[TrainTrackJack]

around the time they were ordered

 

[Energy]

The Railway Magazine/ Todays Railways

When from? Can you provide a link to it?

They're not. Bombardier (or indeed I think Siemens) are no longer taking orders for any kind of DMU. The options on offer are CAF or Stadler.

The 196s have the same mechanical transmission as the 172s.

Yeah, Bombardier stopped offering Turbostars and Electrostars after the Aventra otherwise I would consider it high chance we would see some being ordered by Northern or WMR or GA who all do/did operate turbostars.

 

[Energy]

Looking at TheRailwayMagazine's archive page on their website, nothing mentioned turbostars being an option around the time they were ordered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at TheRailwayMagazine's archive page on their website, nothing mentioned turbostars being an option around the time they were ordered.

That's because they weren't

 

[Energy]

That's because they weren't

Yep, not sure where TrainTrackJack is reading it from, its fairly well known that Bombardier don't offer diesel trains apart from bimode aventras since they started making aventras.

 

[LOL The Irony]

the 172s are still in bombardiers catalogue, they could have chosen more. however I guess they don't want an all mechanical transmission fleet.

I don't think so, that's why Northern went with CAF, not Bombardier, as only CAF could offer both diesel & electric trains from the same family at the time.

 

[ThomasI]

It's probably been said but for anyone interested in the seating layout, it's available on the CAF website - not long ago this afternoon I was looking up details of TfW's Class 197's but found proper interior shots of the 196's.

I take it MTU engines will be the diesel engines in the 196's?

I like the idea of table seats at the cab ends of the carriages - if you look at the seating layout, it should remind you of the Quiet Coaches on XC HST's a bit. It reminds me of it.

Does anyone know if some sort of low-emission equipment (or SCR) is being installed in the 196's?

You don't happen to have a link to this layout please as I can't seem to find it

 

[387star]

The seats do differ, very much so. They are the FISA LEAN, a much more expensive seat than the "ironing board" used in the 195/331, and very similar to the Grammer E3000 used on Desiros. It was the seat chosen by the Northern passenger survey which they went on to ignore.

Obviously not at the moment, but if you wanted to try one out the East Anglia FLIRTs have them.

That said I would agree with the idea that the CAF Civity DMUs are a "poor man's Turbostar", though with one key advantage - massive overhead racks.

Abellio seem a genuinely good TOC. Look at there EMR podcasts and care for their passengers...the better spec interiors on Greater Anglia and here at West Mids.

 

[py_megapixel]

Does anyone have a source for the fact that end-doors on FLIRTs are not possible? Surely it's just a case of nobody as specced them yet because GA and Wales didn't need them? T

There's little point when there's little expectation for multiple working - for example, the 12 car 745s are never going to be in multiple because you couldn't accommodate a 24 car train on the network, and in many cases the 755s are more than doubling capacity as singles anyway.