Woking - Basingstoke (near Hook) landslip (15/01/23)

[nw1]

Is it even cleared to go there?

Thankfully the answer appears to be yes, but even the need to ask the question makes you wish for the days of BR when you sometimes had all sorts of weird and wonderful substitutions if the booked traction was not available, and no-one (seemed to) bat an eyelid...

 

[zwk500]

Makes you wish for the days of BR when you sometimes had all sorts of weird and wonderful substitutions if the booked traction was not available, and no-one (seemed to) bat an eyelid...

Turning a blind eye is great right up until something happens. Then everybody cries out about how terrible it was people were turning a blind eye. Basingstoke has lost a canopy valance before to out-of-gauge trains, it would not be appropriate to just set the route and cross your fingers.

 

[nw1]

I must admit, I'm surprised that they haven't put in an hourly Bournemouth Waterloo via Havant.

Long-term (if this is to go on for months, as some have suggested) I wonder whether they could temporarily tweak the Portsmouth Direct service, and even possibly Portsmouth-Southampton, to give a clear path for a diverted Weymouth to go via Havant with minimal time penalty.

Given we're still running cut-down post-Covid timetables, this is presumably easier than it would have been in 2019.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Long-term (if this is to go on for months, as some have suggested) I wonder whether they could temporarily tweak the Portsmouth Direct service, and even possibly Portsmouth-Southampton, to give a clear path for a diverted Weymouth to go via Havant with minimal time penalty.

Given we're still running cut-down post-Covid timetables, this is presumably easier than it would have been in 2019.

Had we not established through the Strike Service the SWR Train Planning Team was struggling with workload? This will not help that situation!

 

[Timetraveller]

Aside from route knowledge on the crews and stock availability. Engineering work takes place in the Havant area for the next two weekends 21/22 & 28/29 and the line is shut early evening at Haslemere from 23rd to 26th. Sunday 5th there are works in Hilsea area which stops through trains. Again late night trains from 6th February till 9th at Haslemere. Then major works closure on Portsmouth direct from 11th until the 19th.

 

[infobleep]

Had we not established through the Strike Service the SWR Train Planning Team was struggling with workload? This will not help that situation!

That is a very good point and one that should be more publicly acknowledged and I won't just mean on these forums.

 

[DelW]

The permanent solution is likely to involve one of

• Cantilever sheet piles at the toe
• Precast concrete retaining wall sections at the toe
• Gabion walling at the toe and probably up part of the slope
• Widening the embankment with a shallower batter

Then the slipped material would need to be removed and replaced with free-draining granular fill, compacted in layers and keyed into the remaining embankment.

None of that is likely to be feasible in a few weeks, even if NR can invoke emergency powers to gain road access to the site. (Statutory undertakers like power networks can normally do so, but I don't know if NR have that authority).

I expect that it will be a two-track railway for several months, though I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

(Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of this particular site, but I've been involved in similar slope stabilisation works in a non-railway setting).

 

[pompeyfan]

The issue with both the rolling stock and lack of diversions isn’t so much lack of route knowledge, lack of crew or anything like that, it’s just down to the sheer workload. There aren’t enough people to scrutinise every rolling stock diagram through Woking and form them into 10/12 coaches. The last thing you want is for a 12 car to be signalled in to attach to a 4 car. The ongoing issues at Northam as well as just trying to keep trains moving west of Basingstoke due to crew displacement means no one is getting the chance to actually look at making trains formed of 12 coaches.

Similarly it’s the same with the lack of diversions, 15 crew depots looked after by less than 6 people at any one time. They don’t have time or manpower to reallocate suitable crew onto services that can be diverted and keep the crew within their PNB T&Cs as well as do their day to day job as well as keeping track of crew locations during the current service disruption.

In regards to Havant this weekend, I’m led to believe that possession will be cancelled to allow Hook to go ahead.

 

[paul1609]

I must admit, I'm surprised that they haven't put in an hourly Bournemouth Waterloo via Havant.

The Weymouth Diverts via Havant are usually a problem now. Havant Junction to Farlington junction doesn't really have enough capacity to reliably run 5 Southern tph and 3 tph SWR Portsmouth Directs plus diverts crossing on the flat at either end.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Aside from route knowledge on the crews and stock availability. Engineering work takes place in the Havant area for the next two weekends 21/22 & 28/29 and the line is shut early evening at Haslemere from 23rd to 26th. Sunday 5th there are works in Hilsea area which stops through trains. Again late night trains from 6th February till 9th at Haslemere. Then major works closure on Portsmouth direct from 11th until the 19th.

which is why teh slewing option is the only sensible option without creating a wider knock on impact. As soon as this became evident and a plan is formulated and ready to implement then Farnborough - Basingstoke should be handed to engineers to get on with it and should be doable in 24hrs.

 

[gazr]

which is why teh slewing option is the only sensible option without creating a wider knock on impact. As soon as this became evident and a plan is formulated and ready to implement then Farnborough - Basingstoke should be handed to engineers to get on with it and should be doable in 24hrs.

Looking at opentraintimes maps, it appears a lot of problems stem from not having a facing emergency crossover from DF-UF in the Woking Junction area; all emergency crossovers between Woking and Basingstoke are trailing. Maybe something for NR to look at given the circumstances; although they seem to have a way of removing crossovers due to maintenance costs.

 

[The Ham]

The issue with both the rolling stock and lack of diversions isn’t so much lack of route knowledge, lack of crew or anything like that, it’s just down to the sheer workload. There aren’t enough people to scrutinise every rolling stock diagram through Woking and form them into 10/12 coaches. The last thing you want is for a 12 car to be signalled in to attach to a 4 car. The ongoing issues at Northam as well as just trying to keep trains moving west of Basingstoke due to crew displacement means no one is getting the chance to actually look at making trains formed of 12 coaches.

Similarly it’s the same with the lack of diversions, 15 crew depots looked after by less than 6 people at any one time. They don’t have time or manpower to reallocate suitable crew onto services that can be diverted and keep the crew within their PNB T&Cs as well as do their day to day job as well as keeping track of crew locations during the current service disruption.

In regards to Havant this weekend, I’m led to believe that possession will be cancelled to allow Hook to go ahead.

Is the lack of management a factor of the DfT demanding cuts of has it always been this way?

It's why cutting management isn't always the best thing to do.

 

[Sultan]

I've been told that since early December, switch 5100(?), just south of Farnborough allowing movement from the Down Fast to the Up Fast (and then Up Slow) was out of action as it needed some maintenance. This was brought forward on Sunday(?) when the Annual Maintenance was carried out, allowing a shuttle service down to Farnborough, from when it switches to Down Fast, reverses back to Up Fast and then onto the Up Slow back to Farnborough (for the return trip to Woking). But may be this is more challenging to achieve than a back and forth 1tph on the Slow Line.

It reminds me years ago when part of that line was closed and they were doing a similar movement across lines using the switches at Brookwood.

 

[JamesT]

The permanent solution is likely to involve one of

• Cantilever sheet piles at the toe
• Precast concrete retaining wall sections at the toe
• Gabion walling at the toe and probably up part of the slope
• Widening the embankment with a shallower batter

Then the slipped material would need to be removed and replaced with free-draining granular fill, compacted in layers and keyed into the remaining embankment.

None of that is likely to be feasible in a few weeks, even if NR can invoke emergency powers to gain road access to the site. (Statutory undertakers like power networks can normally do so, but I don't know if NR have that authority).

I expect that it will be a two-track railway for several months, though I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

(Disclaimer: I have no knowledge of this particular site, but I've been involved in similar slope stabilisation works in a non-railway setting).

On South Today Paul Clifton was talking about a road being built across a field to gain access. Which suggests they have the agreement of the landowner even if they don't have specific powers regarding this.

 

[zwk500]

On South Today Paul Clifton was talking about a road being built across a field to gain access. Which suggests they have the agreement of the landowner even if they don't have specific powers regarding this.

They do have the powers:

Section 14 of the Railway Regulation Act 1842 provides a power for a railway company to enter land adjacent to the railway to undertake repairs following an accident or slippage, or to take action to prevent such an occurrence. There are two limbs to the power. To prevent an accident or a slippage the railway company must first obtain the consent of the Secretary of State to enter the land and carry out work. But in an emergency the railway company may enter the land without prior consent. In such cases the company must within 48 hours prepare a report for the Secretary of State specifying the nature of the emergency and the works to be carried out. The power of entry onto the land would cease if the Secretary of State, after considering the report, certifies that the emergency works being undertaken are not necessary for public safety.

From this 2014 document: https://assets.publishing.service.g...a/file/380086/powers-of-entry-web-version.pdf

It does state that:

The railway company will try to reach agreement with the landowner to secure entry without the need to use this power. The powers are only used either where the landowner cannot be found or refuses to grant consent on reasonable terms, or in an emergency

 

[Sultan]

On South Today Paul Clifton was talking about a road being built across a field to gain access. Which suggests they have the agreement of the landowner even if they don't have specific powers regarding this.

I would imagine agreement is just a nicety that the landowner cannot really refuse - else some statutory access rights would be deployed. I remember when they built a new road of about half a mile just South of Woking so they could transport everything needed to build an additional electrical substation that was needed to accommodate the Desiros. Once they had finished, it was removed, and you wouldn't even know that it was ever there.

 

[zwk500]

I would imagine agreement is just a nicety that the landowner cannot really refuse - else some statutory access rights would be deployed. I remember when they built a new road of about half a mile just South of Woking so they could transport everything needed to build an additional electrical substation that was needed to accommodate the Desiros. Once they had finished, it was removed, and you wouldn't even know that it was ever there.

Not sure if you missed my post - NR have the power to enter without any agreement if necessary, although they must get the Sec of State's permission within 48hrs and must make an effort to agree terms with the landowner.

 

[Sultan]

Not sure if you missed my post - NR have the power to enter, without any agreement if necessary, although they must get the Sec of State's permission within 48hrs and must make an effort to agree terms with the landowner.

Crossover! It takes me more than 2 minutes to write and then spill-check and check grammar before posting!

 

[zwk500]

Crossover! It takes me more than 2 minutes to write and then spill-check and check grammar before posting!

Thought that might be the case

 

[fandroid]

There were a lot of people on the 05.48 XC train between Basingstoke and Reading this am. And just about all of them changed over to a London-bound train at Reading. I was really surprised at the number waiting on the platform at Basingstoke, until I remembered that this was effectively the first train to London today from stations between Southampton and Woking.

 

[DelW]

The Weymouth Diverts via Havant are usually a problem now. Havant Junction to Farlington junction doesn't really have enough capacity to reliably run 5 Southern tph and 3 tph SWR Portsmouth Directs plus diverts crossing on the flat at either end.

It may not affect the outcome, but post Covid there are only 2tph to Pompey via the Direct, the second hourly semifast has never reappeared. Current hourly pattern from Waterloo is one stopping at principal stations, one stopping at those plus second tier stations, and a Haslemere terminator picking up minor stops north of Haslemere.

 

[FuzzyDuck]

Just watched via diagram, 2L33 (Woking - Basingstoke) do its thing. So it arrives at Farnborough on the DS and stops at P2. It then leaves towards Baskinstoke and is switched immediately to the DF and it stops. Presumably the driver then walks through the train to the other end. It then move back towards Farnborough and is switched before the station to the US and then arrives at P1. The driver has to switch ends again, and the train is then cleared all the way to Basingstoke on the US.

The return journey is easy, it simply uses the UF until just before Farnborough, where it is switched to the US and arrives at P1.

The Basingstoke/Woking shuttle is currently every 90 minutes, Due to it's direct nature the Woking bound journey is just over 30 minutes, the other way take close to an hour (due to the 2 reverses).

 

[Sultan]

Just watched via diagram, 2L33 (Woking - Basingstoke) do its thing. So it arrives at Farnborough on the DS and stops at P2. It then leaves towards Baskinstoke and is switched immediately to the DF and it stops. Presumably the driver then walks through the train to the other end. It then move back towards Farnborough and is switched before the station to the US and then arrives at P1. The driver has to switch ends again, and the train is then cleared all the way to Basingstoke on the US.

The return journey is easy, it simply uses the UF until just before Farnborough, where it is switched to the US and arrives at P1.

The Basingstoke/Woking shuttle is currently every 90 minutes, Due to it's direct nature the Woking bound journey is just over 30 minutes, the other way take close to an hour (due to the 2 reverses).

Thanks for this update - shows that the person I know who worked on switch 5100 to bring it back into service early was not doing it for nothing.

It's difficult to tell what is happening by the timetable apps - they suggest a train goes from Woking to Basingstoke but it's delayed.

 

[pompeyfan]

Is the lack of management a factor of the DfT demanding cuts of has it always been this way?

It's why cutting management isn't always the best thing to do.

They’re all management grades but have no direct line management responsibility. I think it’s always been roughly the same number of people in these roles.

 

[Mike Machin]

Thankfully the answer appears to be yes, but even the need to ask the question makes you wish for the days of BR when you sometimes had all sorts of weird and wonderful substitutions if the booked traction was not available, and no-one (seemed to) bat an eyelid...

Yes, that's true - I remember Class 56 locomotives hauling 8-car EPB sets on the South Eastern section of NSE during a particularly snowy period in the late 1980s, January 1987 I think?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Just watched via diagram, 2L33 (Woking - Basingstoke) do its thing. So it arrives at Farnborough on the DS and stops at P2. It then leaves towards Baskinstoke and is switched immediately to the DF and it stops. Presumably the driver then walks through the train to the other end. It then move back towards Farnborough and is switched before the station to the US and then arrives at P1. The driver has to switch ends again, and the train is then cleared all the way to Basingstoke on the US.

The return journey is easy, it simply uses the UF until just before Farnborough, where it is switched to the US and arrives at P1.

The Basingstoke/Woking shuttle is currently every 90 minutes, Due to it's direct nature the Woking bound journey is just over 30 minutes, the other way take close to an hour (due to the 2 reverses).

That is exactly how it works. There is no magic wand to speed things up.

 

[nw1]

Yes, that's true - I remember Class 56 locomotives hauling 8-car EPB sets on the South Eastern section of NSE during a particularly snowy period in the late 1980s, January 1987 I think?

Don't remember 56s with EPBs but wouldn't surprise me!

I do remember being on a VEP hauled by a 33 during the same period, but that was somewhat more conventional for the SR.

 

[yorksrob]

Long-term (if this is to go on for months, as some have suggested) I wonder whether they could temporarily tweak the Portsmouth Direct service, and even possibly Portsmouth-Southampton, to give a clear path for a diverted Weymouth to go via Havant with minimal time penalty.

Given we're still running cut-down post-Covid timetables, this is presumably easier than it would have been in 2019.

I had a brief look at NRE and the Portsmouth direct service looked to be half hourly. I's be surprised if they couldn't at least fit an extra service down there even now.

The Weymouth Diverts via Havant are usually a problem now. Havant Junction to Farlington junction doesn't really have enough capacity to reliably run 5 Southern tph and 3 tph SWR Portsmouth Directs plus diverts crossing on the flat at either end.

That's as maybe, but when you have the main line to Southampton and Bournemouth potentially going without, one of the eight trains already serving that section possibly needs to be sacrificed.

 

[Glenn1969]

I had a brief look at NRE and the Portsmouth direct service looked to be half hourly. I's be surprised if they couldn't at least fit an extra service down there even now.

Realtime trains shows no through service to London from Basingstoke

With Basingstoke- Reading, Salisbury/Exeter/Yeovil, Woking , Portsmouth and Weymouth/Poole services running

No service at Fleet, Winchfield and Hook stations

I wonder how long that plan will carry on for ?

 

[nw1]

That's as maybe, but when you have the main line to Southampton and Bournemouth potentially going without, one of the eight trains already serving that section possibly needs to be sacrificed.

Also: while I take the point (made by another poster) about the difficulty of actually tweaking the service, why, in general, are Weymouth diverts via Havant a problem now, when the same number of trains per hour (in fact more in the normal pre-Covid timetables) have been running on the Havant-Farlington section since, IIRC, 2004?