Woking Junction could get a flyover

[swt_passenger]

Can someone explain to me what the route training of staff has to do with a flyover at Woking or infrastructure in general? I'm lost.

Woking Junction is capacity constrained, so some up main line trains from the Portsmouth route bypass Woking completely by using another route from Guildford, making use of the existing grade separation to join the up slow just south of Surbiton. Some down trains also go that way, but presumably not because of the same junction limitations.

I think only a subset of drivers have that route knowledge, but the advantage is that it also helps with engineering diversions. Now if the Woking flyover got built, up mainline services would not need to take that route, so the pessimists think that the route knowledge would therefore be removed, and that's always considered a bad thing...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Depending on how it's done you can have multiple routings from one one signal as you know, some routes which are available to the signaller are seldom used (an example of this is the Windsor Reversible between Waterloo and Queenstown Road in the down direction), so as an example from one signal on the Guildford line you can go anywhere apart from platform 3 at Woking.

However getting a proceed aspect doesn't necessarily mean that you are going straight into the platforms and Woking has a poor SPAD record, so driver's are going to need to be conducted (piloted) over the section that they're not sure about.

This flyover will change some of the routings and almost undoubtedly a number of wrong direction moves that take place as well as shunt moves too.

It really does depend on where the flyover is going to start, whether any lines are going to be slewed to maintain a good level of flexibility and so on.

Not seen any plans or drawings for it, so can't tell you.

And yes even I have to ask about some moves that are seldom done to make sure that I don't make a mistake.

 

[HowardGWR]

Woking Junction is capacity constrained, so some up main line trains from the Portsmouth route bypass Woking completely by using another route from Guildford, making use of the existing grade separation to join the up slow just south of Surbiton. Some down trains also go that way, but presumably not because of the same junction limitations.

I think only a subset of drivers have that route knowledge, but the advantage is that it also helps with engineering diversions. Now if the Woking flyover got built, up mainline services would not need to take that route, so the pessimists think that the route knowledge would therefore be removed, and that's always considered a bad thing...

Thanks very much, and I got the map out - ah! Effingham Junction of MR fame!

I must admit, I had no idea that any trains missed out Woking. I wish the 1820 Waterloo to Exeter could do so! I rarely get a seat from Clapham Junction on that one before Andover. (OT rant, apols).

Yes, I would have thought any diversionary route should be in a driver's palmares.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Woking Junction is capacity constrained, so some up main line trains from the Portsmouth route bypass Woking completely by using another route from Guildford, making use of the existing grade separation to join the up slow just south of Surbiton. Some down trains also go that way, but presumably not because of the same junction limitations.

I think only a subset of drivers have that route knowledge, but the advantage is that it also helps with engineering diversions. Now if the Woking flyover got built, up mainline services would not need to take that route, so the pessimists think that the route knowledge would therefore be removed, and that's always considered a bad thing...

Losing any route knowledge is a bad thing especially from Woking or Guildford, there are simply too many variables in there.

SWT have cut the routes back over the years so that we now get to the position they find themselves in today where if something goes kaput between Woking & Surbiton, they're more stuffed than a turkey at crimbo.

Key diversions should be on all drivers route tickets, even if it means resorting to special route learning trains.

Key diversions should be:

Portsmouth line.

Guildford - Effingham - Cobham - Surbiton
Guildford - Effingham - Epsom - Raynes Pk
Guildford - Aldershot (Rev.) - Woking
Woking - Eastleigh - Fareham - Hilsea
Woking - Chertsey - Hounslow/Richmond - Clapham

Bournemouth Line.

Southampton - Swanwick - Cosham - Havant - Guildford (used regularly)
Eastleigh - Fareham - Havant - Guildford
Woking - Chertsey - Hounslow/Richmond - Clapham
Guildford - Effingham - Cobham - Surbiton

I mean if you get diverted twice then it's probably going to be what's known as Code Black anyway so the service is completely stuffed.

But I find it deeply shameful that I cannot do some of these diversions and I have to leave passengers marooned wherever I'm told because I can't divert due to lack of knowledge.

If it means spending some money to give passengers a seamless journey then it should be done, whilst they're going to be a tad late, they're going to get there and it boosts the corporate image, instead of denting it.

 

[GW43125]

SWT have cut the routes back over the years so that we now get to the position they find themselves in today where if something goes kaput between Woking & Surbiton, they're more stuffed than a turkey at crimbo.

 

[RichardN]

Thanks very much, and I got the map out - ah! Effingham Junction of MR fame!

I must admit, I had no idea that any trains missed out Woking. I wish the 1820 Waterloo to Exeter could do so! I rarely get a seat from Clapham Junction on that one before Andover. (OT rant, apols).

Yes, I would have thought any diversionary route should be in a driver's palmares.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W37597/2017/04/03/advanced which means that Worplesdon is possibly the most minor station with a regular non stop journey to a major London Terminus.

If you don't get a seat before Andover with a Woking stop, surely you would be in the same position without the Woking stop unless lots of passengers board at Woking (which is a very bad reason to remove the stop..)

 

[Deepgreen]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W37597/2017/04/03/advanced which means that Worplesdon is possibly the most minor station with a regular non stop journey to a major London Terminus.

If you don't get a seat before Andover with a Woking stop, surely you would be in the same position without the Woking stop unless lots of passengers board at Woking (which is a very bad reason to remove the stop..)

That sounds like a trivia challenge to me! If we define "minor" by usage, what does that throw up, I wonder? Prepare for a new thread while I think!

 

[RichardN]

South Bermondsey at c. 700k p/a is way busier than Worplesdon at c. 200k p/a. Brookwood also has a non stop train from Waterloo in the down direction, but that is even busier than South Bermondsey..

 

[Deepgreen]

South Bermondsey at c. 700k p/a is way busier than Worplesdon at c. 200k p/a. Brookwood also has a non stop train from Waterloo in the down direction, but that is even busier than South Bermondsey..

As soon as I had typed it I realised my horrible mistake!

 

[Deepgreen]

Acton Main Line comes very close, it and Worplesdon are both in the 200,000-300,000 annual usage range.

 

[infobleep]

So how are Fratton crews going to retain route knowledge over the new line if these services are rerouted via Woking?

They could run trains via the new line later in the evening or early in the morning, assuming there are stopping trains to or from Woking at a similar time.

The 8.20 stopping service to Waterloo leaves shortly after the 8.15 for example. I'm not saying the current timetable allows the 8.15 to go via the new line but being five minutes before the 8.20 would make it a good candidate to take the new line, were it possible.

Failing that they just need to run a few more stopping services to and from Guildford to cover the times where fast trains need to travel via the new line.

Alternatively when the new timetable comes in, with Saturday frequency on a Sunday afternoon, perhaps some of the trains could be routed via the new line. I imagine there is less demand to or from Woking between 14-15.00 on a Sunday than 18-19.00 on a week day. However correct me if that isn't the case.

 

[infobleep]

I wouldn't bet on a recast of the timetable. (Don't forget the term recast almost means starting with a blank paper.) Extending trains from Haslemere to Portsmouth that are already running north of Haslemere doesn't need a change to the basic departure times from Waterloo, and the whole mainline timetable will still have to be based on junction timings and conflicts at Woking.

I think the real question is how passengers on the line through Guildford will react to having trains with less seating capacity overall, and having pushed like mad for less seats all round, will you all be happy with more standing, and longer dwell times with the 442s?

If there are longer dwell times then that will lead to delays, if they keep the current timetable north of Guildford, with no changes to it except on Sunday afternoons.

 

[infobleep]

Losing any route knowledge is a bad thing especially from Woking or Guildford, there are simply too many variables in there.

SWT have cut the routes back over the years so that we now get to the position they find themselves in today where if something goes kaput between Woking & Surbiton, they're more stuffed than a turkey at crimbo.

Key diversions should be on all drivers route tickets, even if it means resorting to special route learning trains.

Key diversions should be:

Portsmouth line.

Guildford - Effingham - Cobham - Surbiton
Guildford - Effingham - Epsom - Raynes Pk
Guildford - Aldershot (Rev.) - Woking
Woking - Eastleigh - Fareham - Hilsea
Woking - Chertsey - Hounslow/Richmond - Clapham

Bournemouth Line.

Southampton - Swanwick - Cosham - Havant - Guildford (used regularly)
Eastleigh - Fareham - Havant - Guildford
Woking - Chertsey - Hounslow/Richmond - Clapham
Guildford - Effingham - Cobham - Surbiton

I mean if you get diverted twice then it's probably going to be what's known as Code Black anyway so the service is completely stuffed.

But I find it deeply shameful that I cannot do some of these diversions and I have to leave passengers marooned wherever I'm told because I can't divert due to lack of knowledge.

If it means spending some money to give passengers a seamless journey then it should be done, whilst they're going to be a tad late, they're going to get there and it boosts the corporate image, instead of denting it.

The other week there was a 59 minute gap between train services from Woking to Guildford. The 18.58 started from Guildford and the next two services were delayed from Waterloo.

I couldn't see what train formed the 18.58, as the arrival wasn't showing up in real time trains. I suspect it was a short term working.

Could the reason for it not starting at Woking be due to the driver not signing as far as Woking or was it just that it arrived too late to get to and from Woking?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

There could be a multitude of reasons including:

Excess hours between sign on & PNB.

Wouldn't meet PNB parameters

Driver has to work another train after it and running it late would cause even more issues.

Driver has a short turnaround between turns so needs to be back RT to cover next days work

And so on & so forth.