Woking to London Bridge season Ticket

[angdao]

Hi all,

Ill be going on a training attachment to our london office for 3 months. However, my accommodation is in Woking and the most efficient mode of transport i can think of will be on the rail.

Im planning to get either a 7 days or monthly season ticket so that i can travel every weekday from Woking to London bridge, and walk to our office which is in the vicinity of London Bridge.

When i try the online season ticket calculator and input Woking to London bridge, i realised it is either
'Woking (WOK) to London Terminals '
or ' Woking (WOK) to 1-6 "

My understanding is that the season tix price will be the same if the destination is under category of London Terminals, eg London Bridge or Fenchurch.


Thus, am i right to say that i can use the very same season ticket to travel, Monday-Friday from Woking to London Bridge and back, and during the weekends, i can use it to go from Woking to any one of the London Terminals and back?

Thanks in advance.

 

[yorkie]

My understanding is that the season tix price will be the same if the destination is under category of London Terminals, eg London Bridge or Fenchurch.


Thus, am i right to say that i can use the very same season ticket to travel, Monday-Friday from Woking to London Bridge and back, and during the weekends, i can use it to go from Woking to any one of the London Terminals and back?

You can use a London Terminals ticket to get to any of the London Terminals that is on a permitted route between London Terminals and Woking. That is almost certainly limited to Victoria, Waterloo, Charing Cross, probably London Bridge, and possibly Blackfriars, Cannon St and City Thameslink. Plus of course stations that stop 'short' e.g. Vauxhall (which counts as a London terminal anyway), Clapham Junction etc.

I'm puzzled as to how you think you can get to Fenchurch Street on a London Terminals ticket from Woking? The closest you could possibly get is somewhere like Cannon St by changing at Waterloo and London Bridge. (Can someone confirm if this is valid?)

A Zone 1-6 Travelcard is valid on all tubes, buses, DLR, national rail, within the zones, so if you got that ticket you can use a bus or tube to get to Fenchurch Street.

 

[barrykas]

The routeing guide, quite understandably, gives a Woking - London Terminals ticket as only being valid to Waterloo or Victoria, the latter by changing at Clapham Junction, so I'm not sure why the season ticket calculator is suggesting it for Woking - London Bridge!

Cheers,

Barry

 

[angdao]

I'm puzzled as to how you think you can get to Fenchurch Street on a London Terminals ticket from Woking? The closest you could possibly get is somewhere like Cannon St by changing at Waterloo and London Bridge. (Can someone confirm if this is valid?)

I now know what caused the confusion(1st time to England!). When i used the journey planner, it seems as if it is possible to go from Woking to Fenchurch without a break or anything until i mouse over the 'changes'. I have to go from woking to waterloo, and from there take the tube to fenchurch which i dont think is covered under the season ticket.

Anyway, when i put the starting station as Woking and London Fenchurch as the destination in the Season Tix Calc (http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/s/seasonticket/calculator) , the final ticket is stated as Woking to London terminals as well, which is the same when i put London bridge as the destination. No error was prompted. Hehe.

So, it is not possible to go from Woking to London bridge on a Woking-London terminals eh? Time to check with my colleague again. He told me it was possible and that was how he did it the last time. Erm...

 

[yorkie]

The season ticket handler won't tell you about additional costs.

If I put in something like Stevenage to Hertford East, it may well come up with the price to Hertford stations. That does not mean I can get the bus for free. It does not mean I can get a taxi for free. It also does not mean I can go via London for free. I would have to either walk or pay the extra myself. It's exactly the same with London Terminals. It simply recognises it as London. You need a Travelcard if you want to take the Tube.

I agree it is confusing!! Even for people who are knowedgable on ticketing, there are always complications and none of us can know everything. I wouldn't want it "simplified" too much because I know that if they did that, it would result in mass price rises or loss of rights. If they did simplification on our terms then I would support it

 

[Bedpan]

Bit surprised that Woking to London Terminals tickets are only valid to Waterloo or Victoria and not Charing Cross/Blackfriars if not London Bridge and City Thameslink. When I lived on the SW main line many years ago my season ticket was valid to London SR and I regularly used to travel to Charing Cross by changing at Waterloo, and to/from Holborn Viaduct and Blackfriars by changing at Wimbledon.

 

[John @ home]

When I lived on the SW main line many years ago my season ticket was valid to London SR

Agreed. I am checking the history of this and the date of the change.

 

[tony_mac]

. It's exactly the same with London Terminals. It simply recognises it as London.

Yes, that's a problem with the season ticket calculator. If you specify a station that is a London Terminal, then it gives you the prices to 'London Terminals', and not to the station you specified.

There is no warning that it has done this, so you wouldn't be aware that you have just been sold a ticket that is not actually valid for the journey you requested.

 

[mickey]

Can you not go Clapham > East Croydon > London Bridge?

 

[yorkie]

Can you not go Clapham > East Croydon > London Bridge?

The Routeing Guide is here:
http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

Woking and London Group are both Routeing Points so you can go straight to the maps.

Can you can find a valid route from Woking to London via East Croydon on any of these map combinations?

FD+LM+PD
GA+LM+PD
PD+LM+ZZ

A direct link to the maps is here:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/maps.pdf

 

[angdao]

The Routeing Guide is here:
http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

Woking and London Group are both Routeing Points so you can go straight to the maps.

Can you can find a valid route from Woking to London via East Croydon on any of these map combinations?

FD+LM+PD
GA+LM+PD
PD+LM+ZZ

A direct link to the maps is here:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/maps.pdf

oO, taking the rail is like studying for exams! , they really can't make it simpler, can they? haha.

 

[handsomelife]

The routeing guide, quite understandably, gives a Woking - London Terminals ticket as only being valid to Waterloo or Victoria, the latter by changing at Clapham Junction, so I'm not sure why the season ticket calculator is suggesting it for Woking - London Bridge!

Cheers,

Barry

I have a monthly ticket Guildford-London Terminals and travel to Waterloo, walk up to Waterloo East and get a train to London Bridge eery day and have never had problems. The ticket clerk at Guildford assured me that's valid.

 

[angdao]

I have a monthly ticket Guildford-London Terminals and travel to Waterloo, walk up to Waterloo East and get a train to London Bridge eery day and have never had problems. The ticket clerk at Guildford assured me that's valid.

Yeah, this is exactly what my colleague told me. Woking-London Terminals, travel to Waterloo, walk up to Waterloo East and get a train to London Bridge.

I did point out that if he exits waterloo, can he still use the very same season ticket to go to London bridge? He gave me a very assuring yes. haha.

 

[LondonLarry]

The gates at Waterloo will not retain a Woking - London Terminals ticket as it is valid for travel to Charing Cross, London Bridge, Blackfriars and Cannon Street. If you change at Clapham Junction, you can travel to Victoria.

 

[b0b]

The Woking to London Bridge example is another fun one. I think we've already decided that a London Terminals ticket is valid to the furthest London Terminal on your route. ie. a Croydon Stations to London Terminals Ticket is valid to City Thameslink even though you need to pass through another London Terminal station.

However in the Woking to London Terminals ticket, London Bridge is not mapped.

It also seems that Waterloo to London Bridge is ruled out by this part of the routeing guide, since the London Group is the final destination:

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains
by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station
facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including
doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes
between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination
stations are part of a group.

 

[yorkie]

The Woking to London Bridge example is another fun one. I think we've already decided that a London Terminals ticket is valid to the furthest London Terminal on your route. ie. a Croydon Stations to London Terminals Ticket is valid to City Thameslink even though you need to pass through another London Terminal station.

Agreed.

However in the Woking to London Terminals ticket, London Bridge is not mapped.

I'm not sure it needs to be.

It also seems that Waterloo to London Bridge is ruled out by this part of the routeing guide, since the London Group is the final destination:

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion?

The text you quoted permits doubling back within a group for interchange purposes. It's not relevant or applicable to this journey, and doesn't rule anything out.

 

[b0b]

The text you quoted permits doubling back within a group for interchange purposes. It's not relevant or applicable to this journey, and doesn't rule anything out.

I'm basing it off:
"This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group. "

So do you have and wording that allows you to travel between stations in a group? London is an interesting example in that the maps such as WX shows specific stations in a group, like Waterloo rather than showing London, the routing point.

Otherwise it seems like the Woking-London Terminals must be valid to all London Terminals even if they're not mapped? Do you believe that ticket is valid to Euston via Clapham Junction and Willesden?

 

[yorkie]

I'm basing it off:
"This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group. "

Yes, the extended availability of being able to double back within the group is not available in this case. But that's not the issue.

So do you have and wording that allows you to travel between stations in a group?

Are you suggesting that once you reach the first station within a group that you cannot travel any further?

If so, a York to Leeds is not valid beyond Micklefield, and a Woking to London is not valid beyond Vauxhall.

If that is not what you are suggesting then what are you suggesting?

London is an interesting example in that the maps such as WX shows specific stations in a group, like Waterloo rather than showing London, the routing point.

Yes, this is a problem that is unique to London I have concluded.

Otherwise it seems like the Woking-London Terminals must be valid to all London Terminals even if they're not mapped? Do you believe that ticket is valid to Euston via Clapham Junction and Willesden?

Euston isn't valid because to get there on National Rail you would have to to go via Willesden Jn, which is a Routeing Point.

 

[b0b]

Also why a Croydon Stns to London Terminals ticket is valid past London Bridge/Blackfriars to City Thameslink.

It is valid to City Thameslink but no further North than that, due to a 'negative easement' (which someone may be able to quote shortly).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is valid to City Thameslink but no further North than that, due to a 'negative easement' (which someone may be able to quote shortly).

I don't recall that it is a negative easement, but a fungible definition of "London Terminals" depending on whether your journey starts either South or North of Farringdon. Effectively you may not travel to a London Terminal by passing through Farringdon on a London Terminals ticket. For example you cannot travel to London Bridge on a Bedford to London Terminals ticket, even though its a direct train, as it passes through Farringdon - however you can on the higher priced "London Thameslnk" or U1 ticket.

edit: what happened to the rest of my post?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are you suggesting that once you reach the first station within a group that you cannot travel any further?

If so, a York to Leeds is not valid beyond Micklefield, and a Woking to London is not valid beyond Vauxhall.

You cannot travel any further if its not on a mapped route. Hence Woking to London is valid past Vauxhall as the maps show Waterloo and Victoria, but is not valid past Waterloo to London Bridge, since the WX map does not show that.

Also why a Croydon Stns to London Terminals ticket is valid past London Bridge/Blackfriars to City Thameslink.

I can't comment on the York to Leeds example however

 

[paul1609]

A Croydon to London Terminals is valid to City Thameslink because that station is defined on map LB. Kings Cross Thameslink was always disputed and the TOCs argued about it for some years but it became embroiled in an argument between ATOC and London Underground. In the end Southern who owned the flow settled it by pricing the fare to Kings Cross Thameslink and later St Pancras International at the same fare from ex sr stations as one to London Terminals. Some people argued that the regulated fares were set at the London Terminals rate anyway as the dispute was never resolved.
Farringdon LT was never defined as a London Terminal and always required a U1 ticket.

 

[John @ home]

You cannot travel any further if its not on a mapped route.

Yes, in some circumstances you can. The routeing guide says that you can travel on:

1. the shortest route, or
2. a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, or
3. a through train, or
4. a mapped route, or
5. a route permitted by an easement.

It also says that you don't need to read the routeing guide at all for 1, 2 and 3 above, only for 4 and 5 [that's why I think the recent set of negative easements to journeys the longer way round the Fife circle are incompetently drafted and ineffective].

So for Woking - London Bridge, the shortest route is the route shown on map WX from Woking to London Waterloo, followed by Waterloo East to London Bridge. Therefore that is a permitted route.

It's not a mapped route. That is not important to the individual passenger making that journey. But it becomes important when it causes confusion and causes the individual passenger to worry that their valid ticket may not be accepted. That is what has happened here. Among others, I was confused.

Now the train companies don't sell tickets from Woking to London Bridge but sell them to London Terminals instead. That in itself doesn't add much to the confusion. What does add to the confusion is that the Fares Manual CD, the only definitive document in the public domain, contains an error where the London Terminals fare is shown for destinations where it is not appropriate, such as Fenchurch Street, as well as for those where it is appropriate, such as London Bridge.

yorkie suggests that the reason destinations such as Euston and Fenchurch St are not valid for this journey is that the journey can't be done without passing through a routeing point not on the map. I think that is true as far as mapped routes go. Indeed, I now think that a rule which doesn't appear in the routeing guide but jolly well ought to is: travel from one routeing point to the next on a permitted mapped route may be made by any route which does not double back and does not pass through any other routeing point.

But that doesn't apply in this instance because we are dealing with the shortest route not a mapped route. The routeing guide does not deal with this. Inadequacies such as this were pointed out by Clive Feather a decade ago, see The Amazing Routeing Question. They have not yet been resolved by ATOC.

 

[paul1609]

Now the train companies don't sell tickets from Woking to London Bridge but sell them to London Terminals instead. That in itself doesn't add much to the confusion. What does add to the confusion is that the Fares Manual CD, the only definitive document in the public domain, contains an error where the London Terminals fare is shown for destinations where it is not appropriate, such as Fenchurch Street, as well as for those where it is appropriate, such as London Bridge.

.

It appears that if you put London Bridge in the Fast Ticket machine at Woking and/or Web tis it actually sells you a ticket to London U1 rather than London Terminals.

 

[yorkie]

I've tried it for Charing Cross & London Bridge and Thetrainline will sell me a £13.60 CDR to London Terminals.

Your journey details
Outward journey: Thursday 18 March 2010 Depart Arrive Travel by Carrier Seating
09:56 WOKING (MAIN) 10:23 LONDON WATERLOO Train SOUTH WEST TRAINS No seat reservation made
10:23 LONDON WATERLOO 10:43 LONDON WATERLOO (EAST) Foot
10:43 LONDON WATERLOO (EAST) 10:46 LONDON CHARING CROSS Train SOUTH EASTERN TRAINS Not Reservable

Ticket: OFF-PEAK DAY RETURN ticket This is a Return ticket
Route: This ticket allows travel on any permitted route.
No. of adult passengers: 1

Your journey details
Outward journey: Thursday 18 March 2010 Depart Arrive Travel by Carrier Seating
09:56 WOKING (MAIN) 10:23 LONDON WATERLOO Train SOUTH WEST TRAINS No seat reservation made
10:23 LONDON WATERLOO 10:43 LONDON WATERLOO (EAST) Foot
10:43 LONDON WATERLOO (EAST) 10:48 LONDON BRIDGE Train SOUTH EASTERN TRAINS Not Reservable

Ticket: OFF-PEAK DAY RETURN ticket This is a Return ticket
Route: This ticket allows travel on any permitted route.
No. of adult passengers: 1

But when I try Euston it offers me a £17.80 Off Peak Travelcard.

 

[John @ home]

It appears that if you put London Bridge in the Fast Ticket machine at Woking and/or Web tis it actually sells you a ticket to London U1 rather than London Terminals.

Ah! I hadn't spotted that.

Web tis sites sell to London U1, but trainline based sites sell to London Terminals. That's not acceptable.

 

[b0b]

2. a route not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route,

How is the shortest route determined? Is it to the closest London Terminal then? is London Bridge is more than 3 miles away from the closest London Terminal to Woking? As pointed out, it could be Vauxhall.

 

[yorkie]

How is the shortest route determined? Is it to the closest London Terminal then? is London Bridge is more than 3 miles away from the closest London Terminal to Woking? As pointed out, it could be Vauxhall.

The shortest route from Charing Cross to Woking is measured from Charing Cross to Woking. This is the same as from Snow Hill to Marylebone. There is nothing compelling you to walk to Moor St.

Ah! I hadn't spotted that.

Web tis sites sell to London U1, but trainline based sites sell to London Terminals. That's not acceptable.

It's not acceptable but the fault lies with ATOC for not properly defining the Routeing Guide. I am glad that they have different interpretations as it allows us to find the one that - correctly - gives the interpretation that is more in our favour.

When it was only Thetrainline they could rip us off more easily. Now we can shop around.

 

[b0b]

The shortest route from Charing Cross to Woking is measured from Charing Cross to Woking..

So the basic statement is that you are free to pick any station in the station group and travel the shortest route between any two?

I'm not sure how this invalidates a trip to London Euston via CJ/WLL.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just to add even more confusion, from Avantix Traveller:
5685 WOK to 1444 EUS

SDS - ANYTIME DAY S SWT
00000 - ANY PERMITTED

1 Adult @£ 8.70 = £ 8.70
__________
£ 8.70

Standard Class Single
To : 1072 LONDON TERMINALS

 

[yorkie]

So the basic statement is that you are free to pick any station in the station group and travel the shortest route between any two?

Well, it's not properly defined, but essentially yes however not if you pass through a Routeing Point that is not shown on any of the valid map combinations. This appears to be an 'unwritten rule' (see post by John above).

I'm not sure how this invalidates a trip to London Euston via CJ/WLL.

The route to Euston is therefore deemed invalid due to the existence of the Willesden Jn routeing point. Several people who have studied the RG in detail have come to the conclusion that this is an unwritten rule however what is highly debatable is whether or not it only applies to mapped routes or whether it also applies to the shortest route. I think that it is intended to apply to the shortest route too, as otherwise all sorts of strange routes would be valid.

You can't go by Avantix Traveller as it has no routeing engine built in whatsoever. All it knows is that Euston is a member of London Terminals, therefore it gives that fare. It's misleading and ridiculous but that's UK rail ticketing for you!

 

[John @ home]

How is the shortest route determined?

The Routeing Guide contains the definition.

The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

The National Rail Timetable is here (58.8Mb).

Note that the distances in the NRT must be used even though they are not the most accurate available.

Is it to the closest London Terminal then? is London Bridge is more than 3 miles away from the closest London Terminal to Woking? As pointed out, it could be Vauxhall.

In the initial calculation, Group Stations and collections of stations to which common tickets are issued, such as London Terminals, are not relevant. The purpose of the Routeing Guide is to give a precise definition of the routes that a customer may use for a particular journey. A journey is from an origin station to a destination station.

So, following the routeing guide, the shortest route from Woking Station to London Bridge station is calculated. That is always a permitted route.

If the railway industry chooses to issue a Woking - London Bridge ticket to "London Terminals" instead, that may give the passenger more rights, such as the flexibility to come back from a different London Terminal. It cannot give them less. See the second paragraph on page 1 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

The confusion arises because tickets are not issued to London Bridge but to "London Terminals". But that does not affect validity.

Other errors add to the confusion. For example, the NFM 05 CD showing "London Terminals" prices from Woking to all 18 such stations, when it should only be valid to some of them. And one of the two major web-based ticket sites selling a single from Woking to London Bridge for the correct price and the other wanting to charge £3 more. Again, none of this affects validity (except to extent that consumer law gives the passenger additional rights because of the contradiction in terms).

 

[b0b]

The route to Euston is therefore deemed invalid due to the existence of the Willesden Jn routeing point. Several people who have studied the RG in detail have come to the conclusion that this is an unwritten rule however what is highly debatable is whether or not it only applies to mapped routes or whether it also applies to the shortest route. I think that it is intended to apply to the shortest route too, as otherwise all sorts of strange routes would be valid.

Does that mean Woking to Charing Cross is not possible since you have to pass through Wimbledon?