Worcestershire Parkway station progress

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by Unixman, 8 Jul 2014.

  1. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

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    If I remember rightly the industrial buildings are a group of warehouses that are currently out of use.
     
  2. SephenWorceste

    SephenWorceste Member

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    This staton will only work if the Cross Country trains stop. It adds so little benefit to services on the Cotswold line or the Great Malvern to Bristol trains. I hope a commitment to stopping some Cross Country trains is agreed before the money is spent on the new station. Incidentally thousands of houses are potentially being built within a mile or so (guess) of the new station. In ten years this area could look very different. I wonder if Shrub Hill will then close. Probably just when they finish restoring the Victorian waiting room.

    Best wishes, Stephen.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  3. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    But it isn't though in this case. Factor in the Cross City extensions to Bromsgrove and Redditch enhancements that section of track is getting to the point where the timetable is set in stone with little or no scope for flexing. Start throwing trains at it 3 minutes later and the implications are wider than you think, especially for freight. Before Stourbridge to Walsall gets mentioned, that is £200 million plus and it only gets a lukewarm reception at best now.

    Another example is Cross Country wanting both trains to go via Coventry, you either spend multiple millions on an infrastructure intervention to allow one extra train an hour or you rewrite the Coventry corridor and the ripples that then extend to the WCML and New St, thus is still sits as an "aspiration" that even electric spine doesn't necessarily solve.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    It's not regulatory crap it is ££££, plain and simple.
     
  4. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    £s can be found if it is a good project. NR just like to put things on the "To hard" pile.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Make your mind up, on another thread you said that Bromsgrove and Redditch would not cause pathing issues, now they do?

    ps Stourbridge-Walsall £200M, What happened with the S&C and Ribblehead then there was some positive thinking!
     
    Last edited: 9 Jul 2014
  5. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    They don't cause pathing issues to the existing services as they are so getting aggravated about it because my view and knowledge on the subject doesn't suit your local agenda is up to you. Start messing about with the long distance paths and then you either have to do something with the cross city or add time into the cross country services, welcome to a Mexican standoff where no one wins apart from lawyers.
     
  6. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    Put a few minutes into the XC stuff then amego for the greater good lol.
     
  7. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    Great Malvern to Bristol trains won't stop anyway, they will avoid the station on the curve south.
    I should think the future of these services through Worcester will be reviewed with the Parkway station in place.
    It's the one economy that can be made.
     
  8. deltic08

    deltic08 On Moderation

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    Silly comment when you have posted three times more than I have. Who is stopping you? As a regular user of Cardiff-Nottinghams making connections at Brum, I can't get excited about extended journey times.
     
    Last edited: 9 Jul 2014
  9. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    Those of us who live in Worcestershire can. The alternative to Worcester Parkway would be to send some services round the Worcester loop, now that would be silly. Please accept that others need to use the railway as well as you.
     
  10. deltic08

    deltic08 On Moderation

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    Worcester has a damn good service as it is. How much more do you want?
     
  11. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    There are plenty of people with fag packets and pens debating the merits of a chord which would allow the parkway station to be served from Cheltenham to Worcester or Cheltenham to Evesham but that is all it is at the moment, people's ideas whilst having their lunch.
     
  12. davetheguard

    davetheguard Member

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    To Birmingham: very good;
    To Hereford: good;
    To London: not bad, and better than ever before;
    To Bristol & South West/Wales: virtually non-existant
     
  13. Unixman

    Unixman Member

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    Totally and utterly agree. Just looked at times from Worcester SH to Briz TM leaving now ( 11:15 )....

    The earliest I can arrive in Bristol is 14:39 .....
     
  14. davetheguard

    davetheguard Member

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    Actually, I'm probably being a bit unkind to FGW by saying that the service is virtually non-existent, but at best it's only every 2 hours, and some gaps in the service are longer than that.

    And the journey will take 1.5 to 1.75 hours on an all-stations stopper, possibly formed of a suburban cl. 150.

    Or head in completely the opposite direction, only to double all the way back again, because XC doesn't stop.

    Anybody know what the time penalty would be for XC to divert on to the line via Worcester itself and call make a call at Shrub Hill? And would it really be so much longer than a stop at a new Parkway station?
     
  15. Minilad

    Minilad Established Member

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    It would be at least 15-20 mins longer. Possibly longer depending on available paths
     
  16. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Other people do need to use the railway, true.

    Building a "Worcester Parkway" station with a huge car park and then stopping all XC services there (as people on here seem to want to do) is going to attract a large number of people from Worcestershire to drive there and have a much faster/nicer journey on a Voyager into New Street than sitting on a stopping 172 into Snow Hill/ Moor Street.

    Whilst I appreciate that there's the benefit of those wanting to do Stourbridge to Exeter (to use one example quoted on this thread for why all XC services should stop at this new station), they are going to be vastly outnumbered by those wanting to have a convenient car park and fast service from Worcestershire into central Birmingham.

    Problem is, where are the spare seats on those Voyagers? The XC corridor from Bristol to Birmingham is busy enough as it is - now you want to put lots of short distance commuters in to the mix?

    This station sounds like a good idea, don't get me wrong - especially as it's joining two major lines together and providing a number of interchanges - but I don't share the enthusiasm for delaying every long distance service on the corridor.
     
  17. deltic08

    deltic08 On Moderation

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    Just looked at times from Ripon (also a city) to Darlington 30 miles away leaving now 11.44.

    The earliest I can arrive is 16.15 with a 15 minute walk from Northallerton town centre bus stop to railway station. Only five services per day with last service departing Ripon 17.25.

    As I said, Worcester has a good service to all points without a Parkway station and longer journey times for Gloucester-Brum.
     
  18. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    Perhaps you should start a new thread about the public transport needs of Ripon.
     
  19. Unixman

    Unixman Member

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    Comparing one crap service with another is not very convincing! :D

    Also: Population Ripon - 16,702; Population Worcester - 99,600 (prob over 100,000 now ....) ( Both figures from the 2011 census)

    They both might be cities but there is a slight difference in size .....
     
    Last edited: 10 Jul 2014
  20. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    A fair point about potential overcrowding on some XC stuff but not stopping a train because people will use it is not the answer.
     
  21. OxtedL

    OxtedL Established Member Quizmaster

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    What alternative solution do you have?

    The problem you're discussing is not that people will use it, it's that passengers to/from Bristol (who don't have an alternative) might find their services unacceptably busy with people making shorter journeys. For a key intercity corridor, this is a big problem.

    In the longer term there will doubtless be much more capacity on the route between Birmingham and Bristol, perhaps with 3 or more longer and faster (and perhaps even electric) trains per hour. However, this is not the scenario today, or indeed in five years time. There are plenty of very good reasons not to stop long distance services at Worcester Parkway, I don't think this is some kind of game to disadvantage the area.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jul 2014
  22. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    The record of Parkway stations is not stellar.
    For every Bristol Parkway there are several like Alfreton & Mansfield, East Midlands, even Liverpool South, which still do not generate the traffic that was promised in their business case.
    Stopping Cardiff-Nottingham feels like a toe in the water for XC. If it works, they can always stop more.
    I don't see connections working, any more than they do at Tamworth, at the frequency offered.
    Where do they think new traffic for the Cotswold line will come from?
    It's easy enough to drive to Shrub Hill or Evesham for existing services.
    For Birmingham there will be the new station at Bromsgrove providing 2tph or better.
     
  23. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    I don't claim to have the magic answer to this particular issue but I will say that this debate so far has looked Worcester Parkway in isolation, Foregate Street currently has a 40 minute journey time service to New Street as well as the slower Snow Hill offering, if you add into the equation the Bromsgrove project which will provide a big car park and a significantly improved service frequency to and from New Street I can not see everyone suddenly wanting to flock to Worcester Parkway to fight for a seat with those who need to travel further. The worst case scenario (and I hope it does not happen) is to manipulate the fares to make the locals from the existing stations more attractive to the Birmingham commuter.
     
  24. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

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    davetheguard has beaten me to the response - Worcester has a very good service to Birmingham, with 3tph (off peak) over two routes. The other services are also fairly good, but with the exception of London, there is none for the longer distance traveller. The 1tp2h FGW service is not enough - it is a far slower train than the XC services and is only useful as far as Bristol. The connections are also poor at the Worcester end.
    I think when I worked it out in the past, running non-stop (based on the few XC trains that already use that route) it takes 20 mins extra - making that 25 mins once you factor in a stop at Shrub Hill. I guess a stop at Worcestershire Parkway would add 5 mins once you account for braking/stop/accelerating?
    Would it not be possible to manipulate the ticketing so people are discouraged from travelling via Worcs Parkway to Birmingham. I am not in the position to decide that it could work, but perhaps something like this could be done:

    Code:
    Worcester Stns - Birmingham Stns     VIA DROITWICH      SDR   £9.50
    Worcester Stns - Birmingham Stns     ANY PERMITTED      SDR   £12.50
    
    It could also apply to people starting at the Parkway station, hence it would be cheaper to use the LM service via Worcester (that wouldn't be for people from Worcester itself), keeping the short distance commuters off the XC services.

    Worcester Parkway is a slightly different preposition to stations such as East Mids Parkway - the station is not just to function as an access point to the network, but arguably the ability for people to interchange onto long distance services is more important. Why divert services via Worcester when this is a much better option? Even when I booked a trip to Honiton last year, the journey planners still offered the route via B'ham from Droitwich, despite being far more expensive: the station allows all the stations in Worcestershire direct access to the XC services without spending upto (and over) and hour getting into Birmingham initially.

    The new station will offer virtually no benefit to the rest of Worcestershire - any extra space for commuters will be used by Bromsgrove residents. Also the station is not in the most accessible location and is a fair distance from other locations. People in Droitwich would not drive to Bromsgrove for the extra trains, remember the other stations get trains on the Snow Hill lines, which Bromsgrove doesn't get.

    Regarding the potential services, I agree that all NOT-CDF services ought to stop and probably the Manchester-South West services also, however it doesn't need the Plymouth-Scotland to stop every time. Perhaps more appropriate would be every other train stopping. Who knows what could happen as services are gradually introduced!?
     
    Last edited: 10 Jul 2014
  25. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Shouldn't be more than 3, 3.5 at a push.
     
  26. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    I agree Class172, as a local you will know the issues but if not all of the XC stuff stops there it will give the people of North Worcestershire no better than a two change journey to get to the South West or South Wales. The Plymouths and the Cardiffs have to make calls.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jul 2014
  27. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    I recall in the 1980s/early 90s under Regional Railways Central that the Birmingham to Cardiff service ran via Worcester. The calling pattern was something like Cradley Heath, Stourbridge Junction, Kidderminster, Droitwich Spa, Worcester Shrub Hill, Cheltenham Spa, Gloucester, Lydney, Chepstow, Caldicot, Newport, and Cardiff Central.

    This was in the days when the 156 (or was it 155?) Sprinters were first introduced.

    The amount of extra journey time that would be added to the present day Nottingham - Cardiff service if it was diverted between Bromsgrove and Cheltenham to run via Worcester Shrub Hill would be I believe very little.

    In peace

    Adam
     
  28. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    Yes it did and I used it but you would not get the paths from New Street to Worcester on that route now and just playing about with the South Wales jobs does not meet the need.
     
  29. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    It isn't and has been stated already, it is 15 minutes plus. Consider Stoke Works to Abbotswood at 90 odd compared to trundling over to Droitwich, on to Worcester plus a stop, out to Norton and Abbotswood again and getting back up to speed. It isn't insignificant.
     
  30. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    I think 15 is quite optimistic considering the single line from Stoke Works to Droitwich and any pathing allowances you might have to put in over six double junctions.
     

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