Worst examples of BR era "vandalism"?

[Wolfie]

The demolition of the original Highbury and Islington after WW2. Not sure if that was BR or London Transport. Now we're stuck with a miserable cramped station.

The option, if the money is available, to rebuild Highbury and Islington with a new bigger station on the current pedestrian plaza/former Post Office site remains. It has certainly been explored and would include lifts to permit disabled access.

I note that you carefully ignore the serious damage done to the original building by a V-1 in 1944. I imagine that restoring the original building, which was massive overkill for the requirement, was deemed not a priority in economically stained times. That building would have been a serious ongoing maintenance drain too.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course, war damage was the reason given for dismantling the grand old train shed at Cannon Street. It's skeleton seemed to survive quite a few years after WW2 though.

 

[eldomtom2]

I realise that this thread is about the 'BR era' rather than 'BR's mistakes' or whatever.

New Street was never going to rebuilt with a big glass roof or similar. Following the very heavy damage to the city centre from WW2 bombing there were grand civic plans to re-configure the area. I've seen architects' and planners' renderings that all showed New Street covered over by what were regarded as 'skyscrapers' at the time - basically ending what was seen as the 'severance' of the central area after original opening in the 1850s. The single shared footbridge and public right of way with stepped access at both ends was hopeless inadequate.

This was nothing to do with the Modernisation Plan, Reshaping Report, future of Snow Hill or whatever.

That isn't proof that the New Street we got was the best possible New Street, however.

 

[Dr Hoo]

That isn't proof that the New Street we got was the best possible New Street, however.

I completely agree with you on this point.

However, I am not sure that 'best possible' is really an applicable concept to most station redevelopments, at least in city/town centres where wider planning issues come into play. There is also the issue of 'who pays', which would be veering off thread.

Having been born and brought up in Birmingham and commuted to/from school through New Street over the period where it went from old, through reconstruction, to new I was well placed to understand the severe limitations of the original as well as the less-than-ideal compromises that were made. Nevertheless the new still had many positive features (again, off thread for this 'vandalism' thread).

 

[eldomtom2]

However, I am not sure that 'best possible' is really an applicable concept to most station redevelopments, at least in city/town centres where wider planning issues come into play.

Well no, that's why I used the term "best possible" - to indicate that there are many competing pressures in regards to station development, as well as taking into account historical context.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The Southern Region CLASP buildings should get a dishonourable mention - many have been replaced but the horror at Virginia Water lives on. The WR replaced the fine Tite building at Honiton (similar to Axminster) with another horror.

The prefab station buildings of the Manchester / Liverpool - Crewe electrification were another dismal effort - and quickly rotted out - but to be fair the original LNWR buildings were nothing to write home about.

 

[Scouseinmanc]

Although the old Manchester Victoria wasn’t by any means the nicest station, losing 9 platforms to an arena & being relegated to regional status, was in my mind BR vandalism. Coupled with the demolition of nearby Exchange, so much capacity was lost back in the early 90’s. Capacity that the city now desperately needs.

Just thought of another one too. When I was a kid, I absolutely loved leaving Liverpool Lime Street, travelling to London & after a change on the tube from Euston, arriving at the old Liverpool Street (to go to my grans in Southend..). The place was a rabbit warren. A blackened cathedral, with red cast iron bridges going off in all directions & a magnificent Victorian refreshment room on stilts, near to the stairs down to the tube. I was heartbroken when I passed through while half of it was being demolished in 85ish? They scrubbed it up well to be fair, but with the erection of the tacky mezzanine shops, the loss of the huge clacker destination board & half of the station disappearing under the Broadgate development, it never had the same feeling for me. More BR vandalism.

 

[John Luxton]

Liverpool Central High Level, whilst it might not have seen rail use with the connecting of the link line to the ex CLC line the trainshed could have been used as a city centre exhibition centre as happened at Manchester Central. With direct rail access to the underground platforms it would probably have worked well. Fifty years later the space vacated by the High Level station has not been put to good use.


In Cornwall the destruction of the original St Ives Station was something to be regretted just to gain a few more parking spaces. Back then no one probably forsaw the success of the line and the Park and Ride but Given the numbers using the line today a better terminal than what is currently provided would have coped with the crowds better and there would have been space to create an extra platform if necessary.

 

[yorksrob]

They scrubbed it up well to be fair, but with the erection of the tacky mezzanine shops, the loss of the huge clacker destination board & half of the station disappearing under the Broadgate development, it never had the same feeling for me. More BR vandalism.

Even the scrubbed up bit's about to to be vandalised again.

 

[Wolfie]

Although the old Manchester Victoria wasn’t by any means the nicest station, losing 9 platforms to an arena & being relegated to regional status, was in my mind BR vandalism. Coupled with the demolition of nearby Exchange, so much capacity was lost back in the early 90’s. Capacity that the city now desperately needs.

Just thought of another one too. When I was a kid, I absolutely loved leaving Liverpool Lime Street, travelling to London & after a change on the tube from Euston, arriving at the old Liverpool Street (to go to my grans in Southend..). The place was a rabbit warren. A blackened cathedral, with red cast iron bridges going off in all directions & a magnificent Victorian refreshment room on stilts, near to the stairs down to the tube. I was heartbroken when I passed through while half of it was being demolished in 85ish? They scrubbed it up well to be fair, but with the erection of the tacky mezzanine shops, the loss of the huge clacker destination board & half of the station disappearing under the Broadgate development, it never had the same feeling for me. More BR vandalism.

Re your second para l would argue that maintaining an inefficient white elephant to maintain someone's childhood memories is far greater vandalism than improving things for everyone.

 

[yorksrob]

Re your second para l would argue that maintaining an inefficient white elephant to maintain someone's childhood memories is far greater vandalism than improving things for everyone.

The 1980's redevelopment would have been better if the Eastern train shed had been retained. In the end though, BR did a decent job with the funding available.

 

[randyrippley]

For me it had to be the closure of Blackpool Central station and retention of Blackpool North. A terrible decision and loss of a fine station. A second would be the closure if the new Woodhead tunnel. Retaining the route as a diesel haulage freight railway utilise the new tunnel would today have helped cross pennine strategies.

Central was another one that was never restored after the war - it had a USA bomber crash on it, losing much of the roof

 

[Scouseinmanc]

Re your second para l would argue that maintaining an inefficient white elephant to maintain someone's childhood memories is far greater vandalism than improving things for everyone.

Don’t forget this thread is part of history & nostalgia, so childhood memories are included.
So what was improved for ‘everyone’ by selling off the air rights of half the station & replacing it with the Broadgate development?

Central was another one that was never restored after the war - it had a USA bomber crash on it, losing much of the roof

I think you may be confusing that with Liverpool Echange

Liverpool Central High Level, whilst it might not have seen rail use with the connecting of the link line to the ex CLC line the trainshed could have been used as a city centre exhibition centre as happened at Manchester Central. With direct rail access to the underground platforms it would probably have worked well. Fifty years later the space vacated by the High Level station has not been put to good use.


In Cornwall the destruction of the original St Ives Station was something to be regretted just to gain a few more parking spaces. Back then no one probably forsaw the success of the line and the Park and Ride but Given the numbers using the line today a better terminal than what is currently provided would have coped with the crowds better and there would have been space to create an extra platform if necessary.

Re. Central. Completely agree John. All that would’ve been required would have been to enclose the western side & bottom of the station. I know it was a fair bit smaller than its counterpart in Manchester, but it could have been put to good use as an events space, market hall, etc. although I do appreciate that the land was needed in order to undertake the Loop & Link. A shame though, the vacant land has never been put to any decent use since it was demolished.

 

[randyrippley]

I think you may be confusing that with Liverpool Echange

Very definitely Blackpool Central, the only error I made was in saying it was USAAF - it was an RAF Blackburn Botha

details are in this report

Mid-air collision Accident Boulton Paul Defiant Mk I N1745,

Four Defiants of 256 Sqn were conducting formation flying practice at about 2,000 feet over Blackpool. At the same time three Blackburn Bothas of No. 3 School of General Reconnaissance, ...

aviation-safety.net

Four Defiants of 256 Sqn were conducting formation flying practice at about 2,000 feet over Blackpool.

At the same time three Blackburn Bothas of No. 3 School of General Reconnaissance, also based at Squires Gate, were flying nearby but about 500 feet lower.

The leader of the Defiant flight ordered a practice formation break and the first two aircraft did so uneventfully, but the third Defiant collided with one of the Bothas, L6509, cutting the fuselage of the bomber in half and removing a motor and part of a wing. The Botha fell into the booking hall at Blackpool Central Railway Station and exploded in flames, killing the three crew and 14 others in the station.

The Defiant, having also lost a wing in the collision, spun down and crashed on a house at 97 Reads Ave, bursting into flames and demolishing the building. Two persons at home at the time miraculously escaped injury.

The gunner of the Defiant baled out but his parachute could not open in time, and his body was seen huddled lifeless in Regents Road. The pilot was found dead in the burned out wreckage of the plane in the basement of the house.

 

[urbophile]

I think most 1950s-60s brutalist architecture is abysmal. It has its place in history but to my eye, most cities look better when it's torn down.

Shame the can't totally demolish New Street and start again with something above ground. It makes Hull look grand.

Far worse is the cheap and tacky from the same era. A quasi-brutalist station like Stafford or Coventry still looks impressive; the hundreds of plastic clad prefab sheds littering the railway network and elsewhere, to say nothing of the bus-shelter stations mentioned above, weren't particularly attractive when they were put up, and now are a total blot.

Re. Central. Completely agree John. All that would’ve been required would have been to enclose the western side & bottom of the station. I know it was a fair bit smaller than its counterpart in Manchester, but it could have been put to good use as an events space, market hall, etc. although I do appreciate that the land was needed in order to undertake the Loop & Link. A shame though, the vacant land has never been put to any decent use since it was demolished.

It could have been splendid as a city market hall and a much better alternative to the architectural and environmental monstrosity (as well as commercial failure) of the current St John's Market It would have attracted all the trendy artisan bakers etc as well as the old-style stall holders.

 

[Dr_Paul]

The option, if the money is available, to rebuild Highbury and Islington with a new bigger station on the current pedestrian plaza/former Post Office site remains. It has certainly been explored and would include lifts to permit disabled access.

I note that you carefully ignore the serious damage done to the original building by a V-1 in 1944. I imagine that restoring the original building, which was massive overkill for the requirement, was deemed not a priority in economically stained times. That building would have been a serious ongoing maintenance drain too.

The old buildings at Highbury and Islington have always appeared to me as rather excessive even by Victorian standards, along with some of the others on the North London Line, such as Bow. More generally, I imagine that the changing nature of railway traffic in the postwar period (no more pick-up freight, coal-yards or local parcels), has rendered many offices in station buildings redundant, and thus many of the buildings were far larger than what was by then required and thereby adding to BR's maintenance bill. Presumably that's why many old buildings were replaced by much smaller modern ones.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Don’t forget this thread is part of history & nostalgia, so childhood memories are included.
So what was improved for ‘everyone’ by selling off the air rights of half the station [Liverpool Street] & replacing it with the Broadgate development?

Well, it generated £125 million for improvement of Liverpool Street itself and that was only part of what the BR Property Board got out of it. This enabled a major rationalisation of varying platform lengths and barrier lines and made the entire concourse far more accessible without using mazes of footbridges. The station had pivoted far more towards long-distance commuting by EMUs and away from an inner-suburban focus that had been in decline since the 1920s. The development of the Victoria Line had siphoned off many passengers from the Chingford, Lea Valley and Enfield lines at the end of the 1960s. Traditional loco-hauled services to places like Hunstanton and Great Yarmouth had gone and international ferry traffic was in decline too. Broad Street, which had been in decline since before the First World War with tram and Underground competition, was on its last legs anyway.

Although perhaps not seen as a 'railway' benefit the fact that very many office spaces were created in Broadgate and associated developments increased the number of jobs in The City. Practically all of the workers would become long term rail commuters. It also helped to slow down the drift of jobs to Docklands, which heavy rail was poorly placed to serve directly.

(I lived in Enfield for three years in the mid 1970s so knew the old station well and appreciated the various needs for change.)

 

[Dr_Paul]

Well, it generated £125 million for improvement of Liverpool Street itself and that was only part of what the BR Property Board got out of it. This enabled a major rationalisation of varying platform lengths and barrier lines and made the entire concourse far more accessible without using mazes of footbridges. The station had pivoted far more towards long-distance commuting by EMUs and away for an inner-suburban focus that had been in decline since the 1920s. The development of the Victoria Line had siphoned off many passengers from the Chingford, Lea Valley and Enfield lines at the end of the 1960s. Traditional loco-hauled services to places like Hunstanton and Great Yarmouth had gone and international ferry traffic was in decline too. Broad Street, which had been in decline since before the First World War with tram and Underground competition, was on its last legs anyway.

Although perhaps not seen as a 'railway' benefit the fact that very many office spaces were created in Broadgate and associated developments increased the number of jobs in The City. Practically all of the workers would become long term rail commuters. It also helped to slow down the drift of jobs to Docklands, which heavy rail was poorly placed to serve directly.

(I lived in Enfield for three years in the mid 1970s so knew the old station well and appreciated the various needs for change.)

I agree. Broad Street really was a sorry wreck by the 1980s; even had the North London Line retained a City station, it would have required but a small sliver of the extensive Broad Street site. As for Liverpool Street, I was impressed by the rebuilding, with a full-width, spacious and convenient concourse and easy access to the Underground. The low ceiling on the east side of the station is a bit claustrophobic, but that's a small price to pay for an otherwise worthy refurbishment.

 

[Mr. SW]

Re Liverpool Street: The development to the north is far to close to the western train shed and this has always annoyed me.

The demolition of Liverpool Central was all part of the post-war orgy destruction prevalent at the period. Allegedly it was taken down to make the reconstruction of the Low Level (Northern Line) platforms easier but looking at various old plans and photos shows that this was a load of old knobs. Go into Central Station and look at the brick arches at the northern end of the platforms. These were constructed to basically support the station building which means there was little or no encroachment on the structures above. They just wanted to demolish it. The Luftwaffe's efforts at city planning in Liverpool were very severe, but that was no excuse to destroy what was left.

 

[yorksrob]

Whatever problems the original Liverpool Street redevelopment had, the priority must be to stop the current station being destroyed.

 

[Wolfie]

Whatever problems the original Liverpool Street redevelopment had, the priority must be to stop the current station being destroyed.

On that one we agree. At least the 80s redevelopment was harmonious.

 

[yorksrob]

On that one we agree. At least the 80s redevelopment was harmonious.

Agreed. It made a fine terminus even better.

 

[edwin_m]

Agreed. It made a fine terminus even better.

I'd make an exception for the mezzanine shops - very prominent and totally out of character for the rest of the building.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd make an exception for the mezzanine shops - very prominent and totally out of character for the rest of the building.

They are a bit out of place. It wouldn't be to the detriment of the whole if they were to be removed.

 

[Scouseinmanc]

Very definitely Blackpool Central, the only error I made was in saying it was USAAF - it was an RAF Blackburn Botha

details are in this report

Mid-air collision Accident Boulton Paul Defiant Mk I N1745,

Four Defiants of 256 Sqn were conducting formation flying practice at about 2,000 feet over Blackpool. At the same time three Blackburn Bothas of No. 3 School of General Reconnaissance, ...

aviation-safety.net

Of course, sorry yes. I was thinking you were referring to Liverpool Central! My bad…

Well, it generated £125 million for improvement of Liverpool Street itself and that was only part of what the BR Property Board got out of it. This enabled a major rationalisation of varying platform lengths and barrier lines and made the entire concourse far more accessible without using mazes of footbridges. The station had pivoted far more towards long-distance commuting by EMUs and away for an inner-suburban focus that had been in decline since the 1920s. The development of the Victoria Line had siphoned off many passengers from the Chingford, Lea Valley and Enfield lines at the end of the 1960s. Traditional loco-hauled services to places like Hunstanton and Great Yarmouth had gone and international ferry traffic was in decline too. Broad Street, which had been in decline since before the First World War with tram and Underground competition, was on its last legs anyway.

Although perhaps not seen as a 'railway' benefit the fact that very many office spaces were created in Broadgate and associated developments increased the number of jobs in The City. Practically all of the workers would become long term rail commuters. It also helped to slow down the drift of jobs to Docklands, which heavy rail was poorly placed to serve directly.

(I lived in Enfield for three years in the mid 1970s so knew the old station well and appreciated the various needs for change.)

Thanks for this detail Dr Hoo. Makes sense re, the simplification of the platforms, concourse, etc. I cant quite remember Broad Street though, but knew that it had been in terminal decline for a long time. Did it go at the same time as the rationalisation of Liverpool Street?

 

[SCH117X]

If considering stations which were demolished because the line was closed, a huge one to list would be Nottingham Victoria. I only vaguely remember it from when I was a very small child going on holiday with my parents to Mablethorpe. From what I remember, and from photographs it was a very large impressive station.

Remember standing on the public footbridge that spanned the station; the one saving grace besides the saving of the clock tower no matter incongrous its setting looks today is the thought that if it had stayed open it would probably still have a shopping centre built over it with the result becoming an underground station like Birmingham New Street.

 

[Deepgreen]

Fort William has been mentioned, and for me it was not only the architectural issue, but the moving of the station much further out of the centre of town that stung.

 

[Rescars]

I cant quite remember Broad Street though, but knew that it had been in terminal decline for a long time. Did it go at the same time as the rationalisation of Liverpool Street?

Broad Street had been in decline since WW1. In the Edwardian era it was, I believe, the third busiest terminus in London. Although primarily a suburban station, it did at one time offer an express "City to City" service to Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton. Just a shame that this never came back and everyone going to the City of London from the West Midlands since 1915 has had to make the trek from Euston. Good business for LT and taxis, I guess.

 

[Wolfie]

Broad Street had been in decline since WW1. In the Edwardian era it was, I believe, the third busiest terminus in London. Although primarily a suburban station, it did at one time offer an express "City to City" service to Coventry, Birmingham and Wolverhampton. Just a shame that this never came back and everyone going to the City of London from the West Midlands since 1915 has had to make the trek from Euston. Good business for LT and taxis, I guess.

Re your penultimate sentence that just isn't true. There were direct train services between Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Paddington until the late 60s. Still a trek to the City though, l agree.

 

[Rescars]

Re your penultimate sentence that just isn't true. There were direct train services between Wolverhampton, Birmingham and Paddington until the last 60s. Still a trek to the City though, l agree.

Very good point. There were even Pullmans! Not so convenient for Coventry of course. But we do agree, no financial institutions within easy walking distance of these London termini.