Worst mistake of my life, prosecution for no ticket / false address

[BarleyGB]

I am new to this forum but have been drawn here having searched the internet for advice. Since Monday I have become a amateur expert on railway law :cry:

On Monday I made what could turn out to be the biggest mistake of my life?

During what is usually an 8 minute journey I sat in the First Class compartment between St Pancras and Blackfriars as the standard class compartment was jam packed.

In hindsight I know this was wrong but at the time I mistakenly believed there was an exception whereby First Class was declassified at busy time.

I was rightly challenged by a ticket inspector and believe he was going to issue me a fixed penalty which I was willing and able to pay. Upon being asked to provide my name and address I made a mistake. My full name (which is unique to my knowledge) and address is correct but the exception being I wrote my house number as 15 instead of 11, I can only account for mistake due to the stressful situation and embarrassed im not used to being challenged in this way and thinking about it now may have started out with the intention of writing the date (believing it was 15/6). While writing I was confused and distracted, shortly afterwards the inspector actually said ‘you seem confused’ I asked him to record his acknowledgement of this in his summary.

I have now recieved a letter of intended prosectution (sitting in wrong seat and giving false address) asking for my side of the story.

Im distraught with worry and not been able to get it out of my mind since being 'cautioned' on Monday. I now understand the gravity of the situation, such that a conviction could impact my career and prevent me travelling to the US indefinitly.

I would really appreciate any advice in how to deal with this? I accept that I made a mistake and should not have been in the First Class compartment but im particularly concerned about the accusation of giving a false address, that was never my intention.

 

[island]

How did you receive the letter if you gave the wrong address?

 

[Urban Gateline]

How did you receive the letter if you gave the wrong address?

The address the OP gave was only a few doors away so it's quite possible the person in that address hand delivered the letter to the correct address when seeing the Name of the the person it was addressed to?

 

[BarleyGB]

I immediately corrected the details verbally vepon realising id given the wrong address.

I know people will think otherwise but it was not my intention to provide a false address? Why would I? id given my Oyster card over and full name!

The ticket inspector seemed to presume otherwise, it was almost like he was looking for a reason escalate the situation?

Im in a very difficult position, on one hand I realise I made a mistake sitting in first class, on the other hand the situation has escalated to a potential prosecution, something that could have a bearing on my livelihood and the potential to travel to the USA.

 

[rdwarr]

The OP was advised to come here after posting on MSE. A quick read of this thread may provide a bit more information.

 

[BarleyGB]

When realising id made a mistake I provided clarification immediately. It was never my intention to mislead the ticket inspector or provide a false address.

I had already given the Ticket Inspector m oyster card over and while writing down my address I remember being asked various questions. I was embarrassed and felt under duress, I wrote my full name and address, when writing my address I may have been asked to write the date or believed it was 15/06. In any case the house number that I wrote on the piece of paper was 15 (not 11).

Until that point I thought I was being asked to pay a £20 penalty, having written the wrong house number the inspector immediately escalated the situation and would not listen or accept any explanation.

 

[Urban Gateline]

That's the problem, unfortunately if you give a false detail like that then the inspector can use that as evidence that you were intending to avoid payment of the fare due (in breach of the Regulation of Railways act 5.3a) . Feelings are not taken into account unfortunately otherwise too many people would act up just to get away with these things! At that point the Inspector may well have decided to persue a Prosecution as Penalty Fares are for innocent mistakes, which supplying false details can't be seen as.

As someone pointed out on the MSE forums, FCC may well settle out of court for a 3 figure sum, but at first you should reply to their letter truthfully but without incriminating yourself further.

 

[bb21]

I agree that it was no longer appropriate to offer the OP a chance to pay a Penalty Fare once it came to light that false details had been provided.

Providing false details in the circumstances described is in itself an offence, in contravention of Section 5.3(c), and "nicely" helps resolving the issue of having to prove intent.

Im distraught with worry and not been able to get it out of my mind since being 'cautioned' on Monday. I now understand the gravity of the situation, such that a conviction could impact my career and prevent me travelling to the US indefinitly.

I would really appreciate any advice in how to deal with this? I accept that I made a mistake and should not have been in the First Class compartment but im particularly concerned about the accusation of giving a false address, that was never my intention.

Unfortunately "intent" is not about what was going on in your head, as that couldn't be proven. It is (dis)proven by your actions.

There is no guarantee that FCC will accept an out-of-court settlement, as there is a good standard of evidence in this case. However for a first offence, it would probably be more cost effective for them to settle and they do have a history of doing so, even for people with open and shut cases.

Follow the usual advice if your intention is to settle: apologise, explain that you made a mistake and it was not your intention to provide false details but made an error in a stressful situation, say that you would like to settle the matter outside the court and would be willing to cover the costs they have incurred so far. Be truthful but don't ramble.

 

[BarleyGB]

Thank you for your replies.

Concerning the honest response to FCC without incriminating myself, can you clarify how I should do this, do's, dont's?

Would it be appropriate to explain events along the lines of my initial post, including more details? but wouldnt this be incriminating myself?

Yes it is my wish to apologise, explain I made a mistake and it was not my intention to provide false details but made an error in a stressful situation, say that I would like to settle the matter outside the court and would be willing to cover the costs they have incurred so far. Again is this incriminating myself?

At this stage in the process should I just stick to a factual account of what happened or include my apology and request to settle? or is the latter only appropriate later in the process i.e. once FCC have my account and are deciding how to proceed?

 

[Stigy]

Thank you for your replies.

Concerning the honest response to FCC without incriminating myself, can you clarify how I should do this, do's, dont's?

Would it be appropriate to explain events along the lines of my initial post, including more details? but wouldnt this be incriminating myself?

Yes it is my wish to apologise, explain I made a mistake and it was not my intention to provide false details but made an error in a stressful situation, say that I would like to settle the matter outside the court and would be willing to cover the costs they have incurred so far. Again is this incriminating myself?

At this stage in the process should I just stick to a factual account of what happened or include my apology and request to settle? or is the latter only appropriate later in the process i.e. once FCC have my account and are deciding how to proceed?

Barley, I appreciate you're anxious, but it's best not to panic. I believe you have received a letter from FCC? The draft you showed in the other forum is excellent and will give you the best possible chance. Below is a copy/paste of my post from CAG about the address issue that I have just written over there, which might be worth noting. Good Luck!


I'm interested to see what the alleged charges are exactly. As Barley said, false name and/or address is an offence of dishonesty. More specifically it falls under under s5(3)c of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which amounts to intent to avoid payment. For that one to be used, they'd need to be using a 5(3)a too, which relates to having no valid ticket with intent to avoid payment of the fare. The two have to 'hold hands' so to speak. Now the initial charge of the First Class issue appears to be being dealt with under Byelaw 19 judging by what the op says, and you can't use a 5(3)c with a Byelaw offence. They could however use Byelaw 23, which is refusal of details, as you failed to give the correct address. I'd be willing to be that if they used this one in court in THIS occasion, they'd be on a sticky wicket.

It might be that they're not quoting the specific legislation, just outlining what occurred. It's what's on any pending summons that counts legally.

 

[BarleyGB]

Stigy,

Thank you,

I think ive complicated things by starting threads in two different forums, sorry about this.

Following receipt of my letter I would hope FCC and I will be able to resolve it amicably, if not and it proceeds to prosecution it will be interesting to see on what basis.

So far ive only sent the letter, it remains to be seen whether they will still ask for my version of events, but ive drafted this in case, I would appreciate input / guidance concerning this if and when required.

Once again can I acknowledge the kind support and council ive received both here and on another forum. Its really helped me get through this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have reached a settlement with First Capital Connect and finalised the matter today, no prosecution will take place.
Thank you all so much for your help and guidance, it really helped get me through a few dark days last week. Your help was invaluable and influenced me to make an early apology and offer a settlement.
Once again massive heartfelt thanks.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I have reached a settlement with First Capital Connect and finalised the matter today, no prosecution will take place.
Thank you all so much for your help and guidance, it really helped get me through a few dark days last week. Your help was invaluable and influenced me to make an early apology and offer a settlement.
Once again massive heartfelt thanks.

That's good news, glad to hear you've sorted it!

I guess now you'll be more careful as to where you sit if you only hold a standard class ticket?

 

[Greenback]

BarleyGB, thanks for letting us know the outcome - it is frustrating when we never get to hear what happened after people have come looking for advice.

I hope you will stick around the forums now that your situation has been satisfactorily resolved.

 

[Antman]

I am new to this forum but have been drawn here having searched the internet for advice. Since Monday I have become a amateur expert on railway law :cry:

On Monday I made what could turn out to be the biggest mistake of my life?

During what is usually an 8 minute journey I sat in the First Class compartment between St Pancras and Blackfriars as the standard class compartment was jam packed.

In hindsight I know this was wrong but at the time I mistakenly believed there was an exception whereby First Class was declassified at busy time.

I was rightly challenged by a ticket inspector and believe he was going to issue me a fixed penalty which I was willing and able to pay. Upon being asked to provide my name and address I made a mistake. My full name (which is unique to my knowledge) and address is correct but the exception being I wrote my house number as 15 instead of 11, I can only account for mistake due to the stressful situation and embarrassed im not used to being challenged in this way and thinking about it now may have started out with the intention of writing the date (believing it was 15/6). While writing I was confused and distracted, shortly afterwards the inspector actually said ‘you seem confused’ I asked him to record his acknowledgement of this in his summary.

I have now recieved a letter of intended prosectution (sitting in wrong seat and giving false address) asking for my side of the story.

Im distraught with worry and not been able to get it out of my mind since being 'cautioned' on Monday. I now understand the gravity of the situation, such that a conviction could impact my career and prevent me travelling to the US indefinitly.

I would really appreciate any advice in how to deal with this? I accept that I made a mistake and should not have been in the First Class compartment but im particularly concerned about the accusation of giving a false address, that was never my intention.

Firstly you shouldn't have been distraught with worry, its hardly a hanging offence.

As for sitting in first class with a standard ticket it is commonplace on evening trains (post rush hour) out of Victoria because there are no seats in standard class indeed I overheard the guard checking tickets say (jokingly!) that it was a £1,000 fine for those without first class tickets. And aren't the TOC to blame in this instance for not providing enough seating?

The mistake you made in your address really wouldn't be an issue.

Shouldn't the RPI in this case just used a bit of common sense? Particularly for such a short journey? For example I was caught in a expensive seat in a football ground with only a cheap ticket, I was politely asked to move by a steward but wasn't given any sort of 'fine'.

 

[Deerfold]

Firstly you shouldn't have been distraught with worry, its hardly a hanging offence.

As for sitting in first class with a standard ticket it is commonplace on evening trains (post rush hour) out of Victoria because there are no seats in standard class indeed I overheard the guard checking tickets say (jokingly!) that it was a £1,000 fine for those without first class tickets. And aren't the TOC to blame in this instance for not providing enough seating?

The mistake you made in your address really wouldn't be an issue.

Shouldn't the RPI in this case just used a bit of common sense? Particularly for such a short journey? For example I was caught in a expensive seat in a football ground with only a cheap ticket, I was politely asked to move by a steward but wasn't given any sort of 'fine'.

The difference being that football clubs don't have their own byelaws which can leave you with a criminal record.

Fortunately it all seems to have been sorted out on this occasion.

 

[83G/84D]

Firstly you shouldn't have been distraught with worry, its hardly a hanging offence.

As for sitting in first class with a standard ticket it is commonplace on evening trains (post rush hour) out of Victoria because there are no seats in standard class indeed I overheard the guard checking tickets say (jokingly!) that it was a £1,000 fine for those without first class tickets. And aren't the TOC to blame in this instance for not providing enough seating?

The mistake you made in your address really wouldn't be an issue.

Shouldn't the RPI in this case just used a bit of common sense? Particularly for such a short journey? For example I was caught in a expensive seat in a football ground with only a cheap ticket, I was politely asked to move by a steward but wasn't given any sort of 'fine'.

Maybe I am mistaken but I thought a vaild ticket to travel is just that not a guarantee that you will be able to sit in a seat. If you knowingly sit in a first class area without a first class ticket and without any means to pay/ upgrade is that not asking for trouble?

As for not enough standard class seating that may well be the case but I am sure that people that have paid for 1st clas tickets won't sympathise with you especially if you are in a seat they are entitled to use.

Having said all that it can be annoying on FGW HST's, off peak especially to find standard class full & standing and 2 First class coaches nearly empty.

 

[Flamingo]

Maybe I am mistaken but I thought a vaild ticket to travel is just that not a guarantee that you will be able to sit in a seat. If you knowingly sit in a first class area without a first class ticket and without any means to pay/ upgrade is that not asking for trouble?

As for not enough standard class seating that may well be the case but I am sure that people that have paid for 1st clas tickets won't sympathise with you especially if you are in a seat they are entitled to use.

Having said all that it can be annoying on FGW HST's, off peak especially to find standard class full & standing and 2 First class coaches nearly empty.

To take issue with the last sentence, in my experience, if First Class is empty, then there will be plenty of STD class seats in the front 2/3 carriages.

It is equally annoying to have to explain this every day to the same people...