Worst Rail Routes for fare collection in members' experience?

[RPI]

Must say GWR and SWR south west based guards are from my experience generally very professional, very efficient, do check tickets most journeys, are generally helpful in cases of disruption and are generally fairly sensible and pragmatic - never had an issue getting a rover on the train for example.

I commute most days from Honiton into St Davids and its very rare to have a ticket check on the way in and I've been checked twice this year going back home (both the same guard incidently)

 

[Class800]

I commute most days from Honiton into St Davids and its very rare to have a ticket check on the way in and I've been checked twice this year going back home (both the same guard incidently)

To be fair, that's the worst part of the lines round here for checks. Often check just after Honiton heading for Yeovil

 

[RPI]

To be fair, that's the worst part of the lines round here for checks. Often check just after Honiton heading for Yeovil

Its probably the worst for fare evasion too, at Exeter Central we can go there for a couple of hours and detect a dozen or more short offers with E Tickets from Pinhoe (where they've mostly come from Honiton/Axminster), there are probably that many off each train but usually the first one or two people coming off we end up dealing with and the rest walk through unchallenged, this is because we have to manually scan the tickets as the gates can't be set to reject certain types of barode ticket with the exception of child tickets.

When these people are stopped it generally ends up that they've been doing it for months and its mainly because they never get checked on the train, can't really blame them for trying.

 

[Class800]

Its probably the worst for fare evasion too, at Exeter Central we can go there for a couple of hours and detect a dozen or more short offers with E Tickets from Pinhoe (where they've mostly come from Honiton/Axminster), there are probably that many off each train but usually the first one or two people coming off we end up dealing with and the rest walk through unchallenged, this is because we have to manually scan the tickets as the gates can't be set to reject certain types of barode ticket with the exception of child tickets.

When these people are stopped it generally ends up that they've been doing it for months and its mainly because they never get checked on the train, can't really blame them for trying.

Interesting thanks. What about somehow who actually lives in Pinhoe? Would they be advised to get a ticket from Cranbrook or Honiton as Pinhoe is seen so much as a short faring station, or is there a way to know who actually got on where?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting thanks. What about somehow who actually lives in Pinhoe? Would they be advised to get a ticket from Cranbrook or Honiton as Pinhoe is seen so much as a short faring station, or is there a way to know who actually got on where?

The usual trick at preventing this sort of short faring is to put a member of staff at the station handing out proof they had boarded there to those who did, then you MG11 or PF anyone who hasn't got that proof.

 

[Class800]

The usual trick at preventing this sort of short faring is to put a member of staff at the station handing out proof they had boarded there to those who did, then you MG11 or PF anyone who hasn't got that proof.

Pinhoe is alas unstaffed

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pinhoe is alas unstaffed

You do it as a sting, putting an RPI there to do it on specific days/times.

 

[Kite159]

The usual trick at preventing this sort of short faring is to put a member of staff at the station handing out proof they had boarded there to those who did, then you MG11 or PF anyone who hasn't got that proof.

Northern have done similar in the past at Burley Park, Edge Hill & Cottingley*
(* Back when they operate all trains which called there)

A good way to catch out those who claim to have travelled from those stations and don't have a slip of paper from the revenue staff saying they boarded.

 

[Class800]

It does sound concerning that a valid ticket wouldn't be enough though - in theory someone could have sat on the platform a long time before the RPIs arrived at the station entrance or could have changed from the other platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does sound concerning that a valid ticket wouldn't be enough though - in theory someone could have sat on the platform a long time before the RPIs arrived at the station entrance or could have changed from the other platform.

One would assume the RPIs would check the station before starting. This isn't a speculative idea, by the way, it is essentially how it is done. (I don't get why people rubbish things as ideas that actually happen!)

Usually the stations involved aren't busy anyway.

If there's a dispute I guess the station CCTV could be pulled, but I doubt there is an issue with it very often.

 

[skyhigh]

It does sound concerning that a valid ticket wouldn't be enough though - in theory someone could have sat on the platform a long time before the RPIs arrived at the station entrance or could have changed from the other platform.

Have you seen the likes of Burley Park? Essentially 2 platforms, 2 waiting shelters and you need to exit the station to cross over a road bridge to get to the other platform. This is exactly what happens already - the RPIs check all the platforms, issue anyone already present with a slip and then hand them out to people arriving. It works fine and really isn't an issue in practice.

 

[Edsmith]

The usual trick at preventing this sort of short faring is to put a member of staff at the station handing out proof they had boarded there to those who did, then you MG11 or PF anyone who hasn't got that proof.

Or just sell them a ticket?

 

[py_megapixel]

Or just sell them a ticket?

The point is to catch people who have bought a ticket from that station (e.g. to get through barriers) but actually travelled from further afield.

 

[skyhigh]

Or just sell them a ticket?

That does nothing to stop short faring - e.g. people turning up at Leeds with a ticket from Burley Park having actually come from somewhere different (and further away) which is the real problem, rather than people actually travelling from Burley Park and not buying a ticket.

Last time I saw the figures, the number of tickets sold to/from Burley Park far exceeded the number that headcounts suggested should be sold...

 

[Edsmith]

That does nothing to stop short faring - e.g. people turning up at Leeds with a ticket from Burley Park having actually come from somewhere different (and further away) which is the real problem, rather than people actually travelling from Burley Park and not buying a ticket.

Last time I saw the figures, the number of tickets sold to/from Burley Park far exceeded the number that headcounts suggested should be sold...

It was previously about people arriving in Exeter without tickets and claiming to have got on at Pinhoe when they have actually come from further afield, if staff are going to be at Pinhoe issuing permits to travel surely they might just as well sell tickets?

 

[RPI]

It was previously about people arriving in Exeter without tickets and claiming to have got on at Pinhoe when they have actually come from further afield, if staff are going to be at Pinhoe issuing permits to travel surely they might just as well sell tickets?

Blimey, that escalated quickly! No, we have our means and I'm not going to post them on a public forum, Needless to say its done in a positive manner, there has been the odd genuine Pinhoe traveller stopped and asked a question or two, but when you explain to them why we're doing it they're actually very supportive, its all about doing it in a non aggressive and focused way.

Its not just Pinhoe either, to a lesser degree St James Park, though that's a bit easier as there wouldn't be many (though there are some) legitimate journeys for that flow, along with the fact that there's a fair chance every Exmouth train has had some form of ticket check.

We had few reports from guards about short faring from Crediton, passengers who had actually travelled from further, so we have done a joint Crediton and Exeter Central block a few times in the last week. At Crediton we scan any E tickets and we sell anyone requiring a ticket, anyone who turns up last minute we hand a blank piece of paper with that days codeword so they can hand it in wherever to buy their tickets.

There were several conversations had with people who had forgotten where they had boarded but asked for Crediton (and some St Davids, but thats something we've been onto for a while)

It involves a manual scan/check at Central, the scan log will show the Crediton station block scan.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Grimsby Town station had ticket checks today at lunchtime. No barriers, just 1 guy checking before entering platforms

 

[Kite159]

Blimey, that escalated quickly! No, we have our means and I'm not going to post them on a public forum, Needless to say its done in a positive manner, there has been the odd genuine Pinhoe traveller stopped and asked a question or two, but when you explain to them why we're doing it they're actually very supportive, its all about doing it in a non aggressive and focused way.

Its not just Pinhoe either, to a lesser degree St James Park, though that's a bit easier as there wouldn't be many (though there are some) legitimate journeys for that flow, along with the fact that there's a fair chance every Exmouth train has had some form of ticket check.

We had few reports from guards about short faring from Crediton, passengers who had actually travelled from further, so we have done a joint Crediton and Exeter Central block a few times in the last week. At Crediton we scan any E tickets and we sell anyone requiring a ticket, anyone who turns up last minute we hand a blank piece of paper with that days codeword so they can hand it in wherever to buy their tickets.

There were several conversations had with people who had forgotten where they had boarded but asked for Crediton (and some St Davids, but thats something we've been onto for a while)

It involves a manual scan/check at Central, the scan log will show the Crediton station block scan.

I better be careful the next time I split tickets at Pinhoe when heading towards Devon as it's a common split point for some fares from this direction.

It's a shame ticket barriers can't be made to automatically reject tickets from a certain station [similar to automatically rejecting any discounted tickets], but I guess the technology can't cope with something like that

 

[david1212]

I better be careful the next time I split tickets at Pinhoe when heading towards Devon as it's a common split point for some fares from this direction ...

Why? If stopped and you produce an xyz to Pinhoe ticket purchased at the same time as the Pinhoe - Exeter I would hope you would then immediately be waved on / let through the barrier.
If the xyz to Pinhoe ticket is marked as checked on the train you have just got off or further back the same day as you might have broken the journey for a couple of hours rather than just making the quickest connecting change even better.

 

[Kite159]

Why? If stopped and you produce an xyz to Pinhoe ticket purchased at the same time as the Pinhoe - Exeter I would hope you would then immediately be waved on / let through the barrier.
If the xyz to Pinhoe ticket is marked as checked on the train you have just got off or further back the same day as you might have broken the journey for a couple of hours rather than just making the quickest connecting change even better.

Because who will have all tickets ready to show if they are getting off a train if they used multiple splits? Certainly if I'm on split tickets I will only get the ticket relevant to that station out ready to exit the barriers.

 

[Trackman]

The usual trick at preventing this sort of short faring is to put a member of staff at the station handing out proof they had boarded there to those who did, then you MG11 or PF anyone who hasn't got that proof.

Lancaster-Preston-Euston was one of them.

You do it as a sting, putting an RPI there to do it on specific days/times.

Or an army of RPI's (well about 8) ... always baffled me that.

The point is to catch people who have bought a ticket from that station (e.g. to get through barriers) but actually travelled from further afield.

SE land springs to mind.
RPI's pick that that up.

 

[Trainbike46]

Because who will have all tickets ready to show if they are getting off a train if they used multiple splits? Certainly if I'm on split tickets I will only get the ticket relevant to that station out ready to exit the barriers.

and if challenged you would then presumably show your previous tickets? It doesn't sound like it would be a problem

 

[Watershed]

and if challenged you would then presumably show your previous tickets? It doesn't sound like it would be a problem

It would if you'd used paper tickets and disposed of the "already used" ones. Similarly, someone could have lost or mislaid their slip during the journey.

As always, there are circumstances which fall outside of the expectation that "if you can't produce a slip, you're short faring". RPIs undertaking these kinds of exercises need to bear in mind that not everyone failing to produce a slip will be "on the fiddle", and mere failure to do so isn't an offence on its own.

 

[dubscottie]

Because a guard can only sell a ticket.....

We have that issue on Intercity trains with the law. Passengers must have the opportunity to purchase a ticket onboard first.

Just sit at the local equivalent of Harmonstown for a week

We did that.. Sat there for 30 mins one morning giggling at the build up of school kids. They expected us to jump on the next train but we didn't.
They all bought tickets and probably got detention in school for being late.

 

[175mph]

Grimsby Town station had ticket checks today at lunchtime. No barriers, just 1 guy checking before entering platforms

Whenever I've seen a ticket check at Grimsby Town station, it's always been two guys checking, the same further down the line at Scunthorpe station, always two guys doing ticket checks when there's any at that station.

 

[Edsmith]

Whenever I've seen a ticket check at Grimsby Town station, it's always been two guys checking, the same further down the line at Scunthorpe station, always two guys doing ticket checks when there's any at that station.

I would have thought there would be at least two people on any ticket checks for safety reasons?

 

[VideozVideoz]

I would have thought there would be at least two people on any ticket checks for safety reasons?

Definitely only 1. There may have been another member of staff talking to customers elsewhere in footprint of the station building but they def weren’t at the platform entry point. Just the 1 guy and he stopped me

 

[scrapy]

Yeah, as others have said, it's an employment agency. Some of the ticket inspectors on train are Carlisle Security, some of them directly employed I believe. Most of them are reasonable.
There's some who do come along just to fine people for minor errors though.

Carlisle don't do any on train ticket inspections (or at least they shouldn't be). All on board inspections are done by Northern employed staff be that guards or RPIs. Carlisle do have PACE trained penalty fares collectors who work at stations and also staff the barriers at Northern stations (except Manchester Oxford Rd, Blackpool N, Liverpool L St, Leeds and Bradford Int where they are directly employed).

RPIs (both Carlisle Security and employees of Northern) can issue penalty fares both of which are subject to an appeals procedure. They can also fill in TIRs which may result in the prosecutions department offering an out of court settlement which some people see as a fine but these are not issued by the RPI.

As with all TOCs there will be a percentage of penalty fares given that will be appealed successfully, many will be given based on the evidence the issuer has at the time of issue, and new evidence may come to light on appeal.

You say there are some who just come along to fine people for minor errors? Can you give any examples? Minor errors that frequently occur on this forum include buying a ticket from the closest station to a barriered station, forgetting you actually got in several stops before. An RPI can only deal with what's in front of them, its a lot easier job if everyone presents a valid ticket.

 

[Kite159]

Stratford area, I was there yesterday evening popping out to the supermarket and saw at least 3 people tailgating others through barriers to exit.

Also a good half dozen using the oyster pad on platform 9/10 after getting off a GA train or boarding. No doubt not having a ticket for the GA leg and are traveling to a station which doesn't have barriers, knowing the odds of getting a RPI check are low

 

[Chriso]

I think the Stratford hack is a massive headache for GA. They do randomly have RPI up there targeting people tapping in/out but there are so many they can’t get them all spesh in the morning park where I have witnessed it in the past