Worst Rail Routes for fare collection in members' experience?

[Trainbike46]

Also a good half dozen using the oyster pad on platform 9/10 after getting off a GA train or boarding. No doubt not having a ticket for the GA leg and are traveling to a station which doesn't have barriers, knowing the odds of getting a RPI check are low

Tapping in with an oyster card at Stratford after getting off a GA train before continuing with TfL (or the reverse of that, for that matter) doesn't indicate any fare was dodged, they probably bought a ticket earlier, or have a season or something.

The amount of people on this thread who assume someone is dodging a fare based on rather normal behaviour, such as tapping in/out with an oyster/contactless card, or travelling to/from a station without barriers is surprising, or appearing young. A destination, ticket type or age don't indicate fare dodging!

I think the Stratford hack is a massive headache for GA. They do randomly have RPI up there targeting people tapping in/out but there are so many they can’t get them all spesh in the morning park where I have witnessed it in the past

If this is a genuine issue, on board ticket checks would find those people without a ticket, presumably?

 

[Birmingham]

Also a good half dozen using the oyster pad on platform 9/10 after getting off a GA train or boarding. No doubt not having a ticket for the GA leg and are traveling to a station which doesn't have barriers, knowing the odds of getting a RPI check are low

It’s quite disgusting that you accuse people you don’t know of fare evading simply by them… using the ticketing facilities provided by the railway.

The amount of people on this thread who assume someone is dodging a fare based on rather normal behaviour, such as tapping in/out with an oyster/contactless card, or travelling to/from a station without barriers is surprising, or appearing young.

Or by boarding the front set of non-gangwaged units.

 

[Kite159]

Considering that pre Covid, GA/TfL would station RPIs around Stratford, turning off the readers & basically challenged passengers who attempted to touch in/out into what ticket they used to arrive at Stratford (or plan to use to carry on). Those readers are a fare dodgers paradise (along with several other stations where someone can touch in/out when remaining on the station behind the gateline).

I believe from media reports at the time, they caught a lot of passengers out who would arrive on a GA service from an unbarriered station without a ticket (or were attempting to touch out to travel on a GA train without a ticket).

But then some people think everybody is honest and they wouldn't dream of travelling from say Ingatestone/Witham without holding a ticket (walking past an open ticket office/bank of TVMs), only to touch in at Stratford to carry on with their journey to pay a lot less. Why pay for the full fare from station X when you can get away with paying a fraction of it with the small risk of getting a RPI check.

 

[RPI]

Considering that pre Covid, GA/TfL would station RPIs around Stratford, turning off the readers & basically challenged passengers who attempted to touch in/out into what ticket they used to arrive at Stratford (or plan to use to carry on). Those readers are a fare dodgers paradise (along with several other stations where someone can touch in/out when remaining on the station behind the gateline).

I believe from media reports at the time, they caught a lot of passengers out who would arrive on a GA service from an unbarriered station without a ticket (or were attempting to touch out to travel on a GA train without a ticket).

But then some people think everybody is honest and they wouldn't dream of travelling from say Ingatestone/Witham without holding a ticket (walking past an open ticket office/bank of TVMs), only to touch in at Stratford to carry on with their journey to pay a lot less. Why pay for the full fare from station X when you can get away with paying a fraction of it with the small risk of getting a RPI check.

"Back in the day" Ealing Broadway was a common location for this, we would often conduct a plain clothes operation there challenging those passing between the mainline platforms and the tube platforms and quite a few conversations would take place, the regular fare paying passengers were mostly complimentary about this too when it was explained to them the reasons behind the operation.

 

[Kite159]

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about Thameslink, surprisingly I had a revenue check on a London - Cambridge stopper this morning, the revenue staff were on the train during the layover at Kings Cross and came out after the call at Finsbury Park.

From the looks of it they didn't get that far before they found someone without a ticket (front portion of the rear coach)!

 

[AlastairFraser]

Carlisle don't do any on train ticket inspections (or at least they shouldn't be). All on board inspections are done by Northern employed staff be that guards or RPIs. Carlisle do have PACE trained penalty fares collectors who work at stations and also staff the barriers at Northern stations (except Manchester Oxford Rd, Blackpool N, Liverpool L St, Leeds and Bradford Int where they are directly employed).

RPIs (both Carlisle Security and employees of Northern) can issue penalty fares both of which are subject to an appeals procedure. They can also fill in TIRs which may result in the prosecutions department offering an out of court settlement which some people see as a fine but these are not issued by the RPI.

As with all TOCs there will be a percentage of penalty fares given that will be appealed successfully, many will be given based on the evidence the issuer has at the time of issue, and new evidence may come to light on appeal.

You say there are some who just come along to fine people for minor errors? Can you give any examples? Minor errors that frequently occur on this forum include buying a ticket from the closest station to a barriered station, forgetting you actually got in several stops before. An RPI can only deal with what's in front of them, its a lot easier job if everyone presents a valid ticket.

I'm pretty sure I've seen them on trains doing inspections, perhaps this was during distruption.
I am aware they mostly work at stations, but it is genuinely useful to clarify where and when they work, thank you, because I wasn't aware of their barrier work (also interesting from an IR point of view - don't worry I'm not a union rep or anything though).
I would have thought they be directly employed, but a lot of the world of NT confuses me, to be fair.
I wasn't suggesting that people who deliberately evade fares don't deserve prosecution or PFs, it was more a comment about fining people due to Advance ticketing errors when Northern changes the timetable so frequently at short notice. If I'm honest, the whole principle of short to medium distance Advances in insane, especially on an operator as unreliable as Northern - people can't plan effectively for connections when you cannot rely on a train being on time and the frequency of service on some routes means it it easy to make mistakes confusing different services (sorry to those many guards, drivers and other staff who work for NT who put everything in day in and day out, but it's not up to scratch, mostly due to DfT meddling).

 

[dubscottie]

What is the offence in the UK? Is it fare evasion? Here it is failure to produce a valid ticket. I am curious as every tourist panics when we jump on a train.

 

[Watershed]

There are a plethora of different offences that might apply, depending on the situation:

• Byelaw 18(1) of the Railway Byelaws 2005 - applies to all National Rail services, except Merseyrail and TfL concessions (LO/EL). Makes it an offence to board a train without a valid ticket, unless there are no working ticket purchasing facilities at the origin station, or permission is given. Controversially, this therefore creates a strict liability offence.
• Byelaw 18(2) makes it an offence to fail to hand over your ticket for inspection. Technically this doesn't actually require the ticket to be valid, although overtravelling can be an offence under other legislation, as described below.
• Byelaw 17(1) and (2) have the same effect with respect to Compulsory Ticket Areas (i.e. areas where signage indicates that tickets must be held beyond that point). There are, however, very few CTAs falling under the (NR) Byelaws - and unlike Byelaw 18, the law doesn't actually allow for any fine to be applied for a Byelaw 17 conviction, so it's essentially just there to allow for the powers under Byelaw 23/24 (see below) to be exercised.
• Merseyrail and TfL have their own Byelaws which have substantially the same effect as the above. The main difference is that all TfL managed stations are CTAs.
• Byelaw 23(1) entitles staff to require anyone they reasonably suspect of an actual or attempted Byelaw offence to provide their name and address. Byelaw 24(1) makes it an offence to fail or refuse to do so, and Byelaw 24(2) entitles staff to require them to leave the railway and to use reasonable force to remove them if they refuse to do so.
• Section 5(1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 ("RoRA") requires passengers to either show a valid ticket, pay their fare, or provide their name and address. This applies to all railway services other than trams, unlike the Byelaws.
• Section 5(2) of RoRA means that, where a passenger fails or refuses to do any of the above (this is known as the "three fails"), any member of railway staff is entitled to detain the passenger until the police arrive. In practice this power is very rarely exercised and staff are normally instructed not to try and detain anyone.
• Section 5(3)(a) of RoRA makes it an offence to travel (or attempt to travel) on the railway without previously having paid the correct fare, if you have intent to avoid payment thereof. This is the classic "fare evasion" offence and does not actually require there to be ticketing facilities at the origin for it to be made out; it's all about the passenger's intent.
• Section 5(3)(b) of RoRA makes it an offence to knowingly and wilfully overtravel, if you have intent to avoid payment of the correct fare. It's rather superfluous in view of the existence of 5(3)(a), and section 103 described below, hence it's rarely prosecuted.
• Section 5(3)(c) of RoRA makes it an offence to give a false name and address upon a request under section 5(1). Similarly, Byelaw 25 of RoRA requires passengers to
• Section 103 of the Railway Consolidation Clauses Act 1845 (RCCA) makes it an offence to knowingly and wilfully overtravel. No requirement to show an intent to avoid the fare, although I'd have thought that's surely inherent in proving that it was done knowingly and wilfully.
• Regulation 13 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 requires someone being issued with a Penalty Fare to provide their name and address, and makes it an offence to fail to do so. But this is rarely prosecuted due to the existence of Byelaw 24(1).

I believe that RoRA and RCCA are still on the Irish statute book, as they were never repealed when Ireland gained independence. But obviously the Byelaws are a uniquely British thing, and certainly Byelaw 18 seems much harsher than anything that exists on most other railways across the world (usually it'd just a civil/contractual penalty of some sort).

In theory there is also the Fraud Act 2005, which creates offences such as making false documents as well as obtaining services dishonestly. But prosecutions under this are very rare and would generally only be undertaken in exceptional circumstances.

 

[Snow1964]

I commuted from Kingston or Norbiton (moved in 2003) to Waterloo from 1998 until 2015.

Something like 220 journeys x 2 (return) per year, or about 7000-8000 journeys. Never even had a handful of on train ticket inspections, so something like 1 in 1500-2000 journeys for average inspection rate.

For many of those years there weren’t ticket gates, and even when they were fitted, they were often open, so potentially lost lots of ticket revenue.

Not sure where 1 in 1500 journeys average, put this in the rankings in this thread

 

[Sealink]

SWR west of Salisbury is pretty bad, on my daily commute I've been checked a handful of times, this also shows in a professional capacity to as we catch at least two or three "Pinhoe's" per day when we work at Exeter Central, this is where we scan E Tickets from Pinhoe and check the purchase time and ask some questions if it was bought in the last few minutes, with these so far 100% end up in MG11 where they have mostly come from Honiton/Axminster and as far as Andover!
Quite often in conversation the person will admit that they do it because no one ever checks tickets on that line.

I travel a few times a year between Axminster and Exeter and have had my ticket checked on every train. I know that's not a good sample of usage!

 

[Thedodger]

They never check on SWR between Bournemouth and London. Checks on LNER are very rare too. However cross country seem to be very hot on it

 

[Class800]

I travel a few times a year between Axminster and Exeter and have had my ticket checked on every train. I know that's not a good sample of usage!

I would say between Cranbrook and Axminster almost always. Sometimes between Cranbrook and Pinhoe but very rare between Pinhoe and Exeter Central

 

[Kite159]

Merseyrail, I used the lift on Saturday afternoon at Lime Street going up (as I was that end of the platform) and the queue waiting for it at the top was quite large (and not all had suitcases or looked like they needed to use the lift).

I'm sure they all had tickets and weren't simply using the lift to bypass the gateline

 

[Class800]

Merseyrail, I used the lift on Saturday afternoon at Lime Street going up (as I was that end of the platform) and the queue waiting for it at the top was quite large (and not all had suitcases or looked like they needed to use the lift).

I'm sure they all had tickets and weren't simply using the lift to bypass the gateline

The best RPI sting ever then could be triggering a switch to make the lift break down, setting up a ring of RPIs at the lift exit, then after a while, reactivating the lift and Bob's your uncle, all caught

 

[Kite159]

The best RPI sting ever then could be triggering a switch to make the lift break down, setting up a ring of RPIs at the lift exit, then after a while, reactivating the lift and Bob's your uncle, all caught

Or just have a revenue block at the top to catch those leaving the system.

 

[185143]

Or just have a revenue block at the top to catch those leaving the system.

They do, or certainly used to do that randomly but frequently.

Not wishing to jump to conclusions, but seeing the looks of disappointment on the RPIs faces when you pull out a Saveaway are usually quite something!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They do, or certainly used to do that randomly but frequently.

Not wishing to jump to conclusions, but seeing the looks of disappointment on the RPIs faces when you pull out a Saveaway are usually quite something!

Yep. I always use that lift, and they always look disappointed when a valid ticket is produced. The reason I use it is that if you don't, you walk further through tunnels to reach the platforms than you do to just walk to Central, or at least it feels like that!

It's not my best one, though. When I lived in Hamburg as a student, I once nearly missed my stop, was not paying attention, and just before the doors closed I jumped up and quickly exited. The two plain clothes inspectors who had just boarded also exited after me, thinking I'd seen them (they weren't hard to identify by the way they acted) and didn't have a ticket. The doors closed and the train quickly left. The look on their faces when I produced my ticket was a picture - they genuinely thought they'd caught one. They were absolutely fuming.

 

[riceuten]

I can't remember the last time I had my ticket (well, SmartCard) checked on the train from Stevenage to London Bridge - must have been at least a year. That said, I guess ticket gates at either end probably do that part of the job. On the rare occasion it's happened before this, the inspectors seem to really struggle with a smart card - "my phone doesn't have the right software to read these" as I recall. This seemed to be a real issue with KeyGo - that there was no "ticket" as such, just a tap in.

Inspectors also kick off if you've loaded your ticket on a non-TSGN but ITSO compliant card. This seems to evidence a lack of training.

 

[CFRAIL]

I make an effort to work all of my services, just this morning I had a TOD to print that stated the young gentleman had a 16-17 saver, he was unable to produce said saver so purchasd a full price adult ticket. Some LOR are worse than others for fare evasion. I've started going through late night services too, it's surprising how many take their chances later in the day.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I make an effort to work all of my services, just this morning I had a TOD to print that stated the young gentleman had a 16-17 saver, he was unable to produce said saver so purchasd a full price adult ticket. Some LOR are worse than others for fare evasion. I've started going through late night services too, it's surprising how many take their chances later in the day.

As a rule, the late Liverpool to Crewe trains are not often gone through due to the sheer amount of antisocial behaviour and potential violence onboard, but I worked the 2nd last on Friday and it was actually very jovial for a change. Around 50-60% had tickets which was far more than I had anticipated.

 

[Krokodil]

I make an effort to work all of my services, just this morning I had a TOD to print that stated the young gentleman had a 16-17 saver, he was unable to produce said saver so purchasd a full price adult ticket. Some LOR are worse than others for fare evasion. I've started going through late night services too, it's surprising how many take their chances later in the day.

I had a ToD the other day with a 16-25 railcard. She had the railcard but it was well before 10am. I checked the booking and sure enough she had booked for the first train after 10am.

There were TIL RPIs on the platform too, I must have made about £50 on a not-very-busy train with all of the people they'd missed. Hopeless!

 

[VideozVideoz]

Merseyrail, I used the lift on Saturday afternoon at Lime Street going up (as I was that end of the platform) and the queue waiting for it at the top was quite large (and not all had suitcases or looked like they needed to use the lift).

I'm sure they all had tickets and weren't simply using the lift to bypass the gateline

Similar story at Manchester Piccadilly. People use the lift to avoid the gateline, however, RPI guard the lift at the top regularly. Last time I was there, the lift was out of order.

On a separate note I was in leicester last week. EMR staff saw on camera someone enter the station through the back entrance and went straight to platform. She headed down with security and they intercepted him.

 

[MrJeeves]

On the rare occasion it's happened before this, the inspectors seem to really struggle with a smart card - "my phone doesn't have the right software to read these" as I recall. This seemed to be a real issue with KeyGo - that there was no "ticket" as such, just a tap in.

I've had quite the opposite of this: most staff are quite readily able to check ITSO smartcards now in the rare case I encounter an RPI check on TL. Some staff still use the Smart Ticket Checker app on their phone, but I've seen an increasing amount of RPIs use their dedicated tablet which appears to just show a green tick on the screen if the smartcard is valid, similar to the TfL-style readers (which I used to see being used for ITSO outside TfL zones, but don't usually anymore).

It used to more be the case that RPIs couldn't be bothered to check smartcards in my experience, just nodding and going "yep" instead. I also never get checked for my railcard, nor am I ever questioned about using TL only tickets on other brand GTR services like I would be with a paper ticket.

 

[Kite159]

Similar story at Manchester Piccadilly. People use the lift to avoid the gateline, however, RPI guard the lift at the top regularly. Last time I was there, the lift was out of order.

On a separate note I was in leicester last week. EMR staff saw on camera someone enter the station through the back entrance and went straight to platform. She headed down with security and they intercepted him.

Agreed there with that lift at Piccadilly giving easy access to the outside world for any pay when challenged passengers to use. Probably worse than at Liverpool as that lift is quite large.

----

Interestingly I had checks on some London Northwestern services this last weekend, once heading towards Crewe (guard came round before Milton Keynes, never to be seen again), once yesterday on a Crewe - Birmingham via Stoke between Kidsgrove & Longport and on a Birmingham - London train after Northampton.

 

[Hadders]

They never check on SWR between Bournemouth and London. Checks on LNER are very rare too. However cross country seem to be very hot on it

I almost always have my ticket checked on LNER if travelling between Stevenage and the north. Never get a check on the odd time I use LNER bentween Stevenage and London but there are almost always ticket gates in operation and Stevenage.

I can't remember the last time I had my ticket (well, SmartCard) checked on the train from Stevenage to London Bridge - must have been at least a year. That said, I guess ticket gates at either end probably do that part of the job. On the rare occasion it's happened before this, the inspectors seem to really struggle with a smart card - "my phone doesn't have the right software to read these" as I recall. This seemed to be a real issue with KeyGo - that there was no "ticket" as such, just a tap in.

Inspectors also kick off if you've loaded your ticket on a non-TSGN but ITSO compliant card. This seems to evidence a lack of training.

I've had more onboard checks recently with GTR but they will only ever be random given that most stations have ticket gates.

 

[markymark2000]

Cardiff Valley Lines are the worst. North of Pontypridd, guards refuse to go through after 19.30 because the kids there are feral. Sometimes there's even proper security on the line but the kids are awful. It's even worse with rail replacement buses. Drivers have told me stories about them overhearing kids on the phone 'The free bus is on again today, let's go to maccys'. They then turn up in groups of between 10 and 40 all trying to cram onto the buses without tickets and refusal to pay. If challenged, they throw bricks at buses and kick the buses. If they do manage to get on, buses get wreaked with often graffiti or like the back row of seats pulled out. I've overheard discussions between drivers and staff too where station staff don't want to deal with them either so push them onto buses even though it's well known that they have no tickets. Station staff just demand buses take them so they don't have to deal with them. The kids rule the roost in South Wales Valleys. Station staff, guards, Rail Replacement drivers are all fed up of it but Transport for Wales refuse to do anything about it. Fares are certainly optional in the Welsh Valleys.

 

[Krokodil]

What really doesn't help there is that Pontypridd barriers are on far too little. Should be 06:00 to 22:00 every day at least, if not first train to last train.

 

[markymark2000]

What really doesn't help there is that Pontypridd barriers are on far too little. Should be 06:00 to 22:00 every day at least, if not first train to last train.

Most useless barriers in existence. They spend More time open then they do in operation. Waste of money installing them in my opinion.

 

[plugwash]

Similar story at Manchester Piccadilly. People use the lift to avoid the gateline, however, RPI guard the lift at the top regularly.

Perhaps it's the times of day I travel, but I use that lift pretty frequently and i've only been ticket checked there once.

 

[MrJeeves]

Cardiff Valley Lines are the worst. North of Pontypridd, guards refuse to go through after 19.30 because the kids there are feral. Sometimes there's even proper security on the line but the kids are awful. It's even worse with rail replacement buses. Drivers have told me stories about them overhearing kids on the phone 'The free bus is on again today, let's go to maccys'. They then turn up in groups of between 10 and 40 all trying to cram onto the buses without tickets and refusal to pay. If challenged, they throw bricks at buses and kick the buses. If they do manage to get on, buses get wreaked with often graffiti or like the back row of seats pulled out. I've overheard discussions between drivers and staff too where station staff don't want to deal with them either so push them onto buses even though it's well known that they have no tickets. Station staff just demand buses take them so they don't have to deal with them. The kids rule the roost in South Wales Valleys. Station staff, guards, Rail Replacement drivers are all fed up of it but Transport for Wales refuse to do anything about it. Fares are certainly optional in the Welsh Valleys.

Wow... it wasn't that bad when I was staying around Cardiff last summer. They did have actual security on-board, which was a surprise to me, but I guess that explains it.