Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Only a cheap one that isn't designed to a proper specification.
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Worst UK train?
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Only a cheap one that isn't designed to a proper specification.
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So which of the issues above does a 6'6" 19st passenger sitting in it (and for how long and how many times), constitute a test that proves a seat's worth?
Joba
Member
The Northern 142 Pacer by a massive distance. The 15X trains are futuristic in comparison.
They literally have no redeeming qualities.
Ride quality? None.
Brakes? Migraine inducing.
Speed? Anything above 40mph feels like the train is coming apart.
Heating? Permanently on.
Seating? Original 80s bus benches.
Reliability? 50/50.
I have no doubt these things kept branch lines open in the 80s and 90s. They were cheap and got the job done on shorter routes. But they have very much had their time and I'm glad my region is finally rid of them.
They literally have no redeeming qualities.
Ride quality? None.
Brakes? Migraine inducing.
Speed? Anything above 40mph feels like the train is coming apart.
Heating? Permanently on.
Seating? Original 80s bus benches.
Reliability? 50/50.
I have no doubt these things kept branch lines open in the 80s and 90s. They were cheap and got the job done on shorter routes. But they have very much had their time and I'm glad my region is finally rid of them.
Did Glasgow to Preston in a pendolino earlier and it reminded me how much I dislike them. Horribly claustrophobic with the tapering sides and ludicrously shallow windows.
I had seat B1, which has a decent view, but I’d have been appalled to have got whichever of B5 and B6 is the “window” seat when there is literally nothing but bulkhead.
At least the annoying voice in the toilets seems to have gone now
I had seat B1, which has a decent view, but I’d have been appalled to have got whichever of B5 and B6 is the “window” seat when there is literally nothing but bulkhead.
At least the annoying voice in the toilets seems to have gone now
NewClee153
Member
- Joined
- 13 Aug 2018
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Either the 390s or 220/221s. Cramped layout, horrible airline seating, I can’t stand them. I don’t get the hate for the 150s, they’re definitely not the worst, pacers anyone?
Sean Davidson
Member
I don't understand that either, in the south I use 455s and 317s quite a bit and they are fine, quite like a good fast run out of Liverpool Street on a 317 to Cambridge, 150s can't be that much different, exactly the same body as a 317 just diesel instead of electric.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They have one - excellent all-round window view, so good for scenic branch lines. Unlike Class 150/1s which have no seats properly aligned with the windows.
150s are a lot worse than the equivalent EMUs, especially in Northern-land. The EMU versions, (in this case 321/22) were with Northern as well and were much better - no 2+3 airline seats, no engine noise, and more capacity as they are 4-car whereas 2-car 150s are frequenrly run on their own where they don't provide enough capacity.
Quite the drama as a passneger as the carriage lurches and coughs its way out of Forest Hill!
GospelOak117
Member
700s. The near identical 717 is fine for the suburban routes they work, but the 700 is not suitable for the long distance stuff to Peterborough, Cambridge and even Bedford. Not to mention South Coast destinations. I’m just under six foot and my legs don’t fit behind the seats so have to sit diagonally, blocking a seat. That is also very bad for the back.
Luckily I’ve never needed to go further than Luton on one, and wouldn’t want to. Never thought I’d miss Mk3 EMUs!
Luckily I’ve never needed to go further than Luton on one, and wouldn’t want to. Never thought I’d miss Mk3 EMUs!
Andrew1395
Member
I nominate LNE 319s. Not bad in their day, but people said that of bleeding patients for infections. These are well past their day. Needs scrapping
Pacers are the obvious choice but I have to say most of the Mark III-derived multiple units run them close. I loathe both 150s and 319s which are awful units, but the likes of 317s, 318s, 320s, 321s and 322s are not much better. Appalling seating, poor acceleration and depressing interiors. Can't wait for the day when all these classes are extinct from our railways.
I have to agree, the 150s feel very dated and I feel like an opportunity was missed to finally give Northern's a decent interior. Instead, whilst an improvement over what was there before, the updated 150 interiors feel like the waiting room of my local dentist on rails. Hopefully they're replaced as early as possible during the next franchise period.
The Mk3 EMUs sound nice, but as you say, their acceleration is dreadful. Thankfully, sense prevailed and the 323s, which are far superior units, are staying instead.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Assuming you mean LNR. Have they actually re-entered service? I was of the opinion that they were probably done for by COVID.
Mikey C
Established Member
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- 6,857
The 465 Networkers aren't perfect, but you can see that Network Southeast made an effort with them, with 2 powered carriages instead of 1, plug doors (so no blank wall pocket and much smoother looks) and (when built) perfect seat/window alignment.
Realistically such an individual is an outlier. A seat optimised for them would likely be absolutely awful for a 5', 6 stone petite female who would find the headrest way too high and the seat squab overpadded. Hence seat design is inevitably a compromise.
Most, but l concede not all, of the criticisms you make of Mk3 derived MUs also apply in spades to the PEP units which you seem to be an aficionado of...
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Well, pedantic bit out of the way first: I'm no aficionado of the PEP units as I simply don't remember them, but the PEP-derived 313-5/507/8 classes definitely.
I don't think the criticisms do apply. The PEP-derived stock accelerates much better than any of the Mark III-derived electrics and in my opinion the seating is better too. The original low-back seating wasn't to everyone's taste, but I've always found it a lot more comfortable (and not as painfully low) than the Ashbourne seats on the Mark III MUs. Any of the replacement seats (fitted to the Southern 313s, Merseyrail 507/8s and WAGN 313s) are also a big improvement.
The overall interior impression is a matter of taste, but I find the PEP-derived units are brighter internally and the window height is much better positioned to the seat height. My biggest criticism of the PEP-derived interior is the poor window and seat alignment, something which can also be directed at Mark III MUs.
I think 465s are very good and always have. The seat and window alignment is a real plus on these and the seats themselves are a considerable step up from the Ashbourne. One thing I have found is that the BREL-built units are a better ride than the Metro-Cammell ones which always seem to squeak when at speed. I miss the original motors on the BREL 465s too: what a sound.
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The PEP-derived units do not have poor acceleration, and the interiors of the Merseyrail and Southern examples are better than any Mk3 derived units I've experienced across a number of operators. Frankly, I have no idea how it's possible to make an EMU as slow as the 317-322 family. My Whirlpool washing machine could accelerate faster than all of them.
Yes, fully agreed. The difference in acceleration despite the PEP-derived units being older is stark.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Er, the Southern PEPs have exactly the same interior as their 455s.
Edit: ah, no they don't, they're 2+2 instead of 3+2. But that said, you could do that the other way round if you wanted.
The acceleration is the main exception definitely. Merseyrail PEP-derived units have decent interiors l agree. So do the SWT refurbished 455s, which l personally consider better (ironically quite a high proportion have one PEP type trailer per unit).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
One thing where the PEPs do win out is modernity (yes, I know). They somehow seem to be a more timeless design, and many people don't know the Merseyrail units are as old as they are as a result. The Mk3 derived units, by contrast, just look 1980s.
OK, with PEPs the original lighting and colour scheme looks 70s, but if you replace that it takes away most such signs.
OK, with PEPs the original lighting and colour scheme looks 70s, but if you replace that it takes away most such signs.
To be fair, I don't mind the 455s, which are easily the best of the Mk3 family.
I won't miss the 317-322s though. Dreadful units.
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Joba
Member
The windows would fog up as soon as it rained outside or it was a cold day. If you're unlucky the rain would get through the window seal and drip onto the seats.
But yeah they did have big windows for good viewing.
Anonymous10
Established Member
I remember finishing work in the beautiful town of Tenby on a miserable wet cold windy day getting to the station saw my least favourite train and thought at least I will be out the rain and it then broke down for a hour at the station (thankfully they let us on and it was nice and warm but not fun)
Joba
Member
Haha yeah the broken down Pacer is a rite of passage for work commuters. At least you were warm.
Anonymous10
Established Member
Yep warm and dry and what's a good museum general assistant without a good book so all ended well but it's another of my reason why I hate the Pacers even tho I will miss them when gone they are bad trains but have character and definitely served a purpose
GlitterUnicorn
Member
334s, probably the least comfortable "modern" train out there, which in my mind is worse than being decrepit due to being old. It doesn't help that they tend to end up on longer routes too.
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