Wrexham, Shropshire & Midlands Railway

[The Prisoner]

Shame that the proposals don't include an extension to Chester on the first 2 and last 2 (the diagrams which start or end their day in Wrexham). Chester suffers badly from a lack of proper services through to the West Midlands and relies pretty heavily on either the 2 hourly TFW via Shrewsbury or running via Crewe which is rather expensive. Chester to London is a route which seems to be rather busy as well at the minute and Avantis reliability on the line and constant dilly dallying with removing Chester services from the timetable doesn't help to get people onto trains.

Doubt there is capacity due to the Wrexham - Rossett section of that line still being single to extend to Chester.

I live in Chester and would welcome better services to the West Midlands, but as this proposed service avoids Birmingham New Street it's missing the most important stop, and on the outline timings it's no quicker than current services anyway.

Completely agree on Avanti. Literally every other journey being cancelled again - it's unusable as a service.

Can Wrexham support five trains a day to London? It couldn't before, and even their document seems to have been seduced by Ryan Reynolds. Their document says the population of Wrexham is 135k, but that is the Borough, which extends out to the likes of Llangollen - Wrexham City itself is only around 45k. Hope it works for them as the place is on the up, but the business plan seems optimistic.

 

[MCR247]

Dont forget originally WSMR were going to lease from Poterbrook the class 170s that were just co.ing off lease from Midland mainline although they then suddenly became unavailable i suspect meddling from DFT

I think you might have got your wires crossed here. The 170/1s were replaced by 222s in 2004 and went to Central Trains. WSMR wasn’t founded until a few years later

 

[Class 170101]

But surely a better service from Chester / Wrexham to the West Midlands would be of more value via Crewe and Stafford?

 

[zwk500]

But surely a better service from Chester / Wrexham to the West Midlands would be of more value via Crewe and Stafford?

But then any OAO absolutely fails the 'not primarily abstractive' test against Avanti (with a bit of abstraction from LNR as well for good measure).

 

[Class 170101]

But then any OAO absolutely fails the 'not primarily abstractive' test against Avanti (with a bit of abstraction from LNR as well for good measure).

Sorry should have quoted (see below) and yes would fail the test inevitably. Though that being said if through services were provided would it actually increase the size of the pot (though probably not by enough).

Doubt there is capacity due to the Wrexham - Rossett section of that line still being single to extend to Chester.

I live in Chester and would welcome better services to the West Midlands, but as this proposed service avoids Birmingham New Street it's missing the most important stop, and on the outline timings it's no quicker than current services anyway.

 

[markymark2000]

Doubt there is capacity due to the Wrexham - Rossett section of that line still being single to extend to Chester.

That section is timed to take only 6 minutes to traverse and so even giving a small bit of padding time, you could surely get 6 trains per hour running over the section? Perhaps optimistic and doesn't give any space for recovery but in theory, that is possible. The 06:21 off Wrexham would be very tight to fit in but possible. the 07:54 could start at Chester easily. The last two services could extend to Chester easily without any conflicts. Midday extensions would be nice but not possible with the turnarounds.

 

[The Planner]

That section is timed to take only 6 minutes to traverse and so even giving a small bit of padding time, you could surely get 6 trains per hour running over the section? Perhaps optimistic and doesn't give any space for recovery but in theory, that is possible. The 06:21 off Wrexham would be very tight to fit in but possible. the 07:54 could start at Chester easily. The last two services could extend to Chester easily without any conflicts. Midday extensions would be nice but not possible with the turnarounds.

Depends what is being used as a single line reoccupation value. If its 3 then that is 9 minutes per train, I wouldn't want to be doing that 6 times an hour.

 

[zwk500]

Depends what is being used as a single line reoccupation value. If its 3 then that is 9 minutes per train, I wouldn't want to be doing that 6 times an hour.

Not to mention the unlikely chances of being able to hit that gap every single time, when trains are coming from Manchester, Cardiff, Holyhead, etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If "22x" means repurposed off-lease Avanti 221s, they could fit into the WCML paths south of Nuneaton quite well.
But the removal of the 221 EPS differential would make a difference.

 

[Bald Rick]

If "22x" means repurposed off-lease Avanti 221s, they could fit into the WCML paths south of Nuneaton quite well.
But the removal of the 221 EPS differential would make a difference.

Which paths are those? Imaginary spare paths or the ones that don’t exist?

 

[185]

They appear to wish to occupy a much needed platform at Euston for 1-2 hours, or levitate into space.

 

[zwk500]

The appear to wish to occupy a much needed platform at Euston for 1-2 hours, or levitate into space.

Or shunt into the Wall Sidings? Depending on length of the set and what else is happening, could even tuck away in the Middle Sidings between 15 and 16.

 

[frodshamfella]

But surely a better service from Chester / Wrexham to the West Midlands would be of more value via Crewe and Stafford?

Makes sense.

 

[richard_S]

I'm not sure on the length of 3 but I don't think it's long, and the bays are certainly not passenger-rated, nor easy to make them so. Easiest option will be to shunt into Croes Newydd Goods Loop off Platform 2 and shunt back into Platform 1 to start back.

The 2 bay platforms are about 90 ish and 80 meters long bay 2 80M could be extended by about 30M as could bay 1. But there is no crossover from the north bound line into the bays. As going to Chester it would need the short bit of single line redoubling. Thinking on the points south of the bay onto the line could be moved 20M further south giving the bays another 20M length.

 

[WSMP]

So a little background for folk.

Laing Rail was very much Adrian Shooter's company. Ian Walters was one of Adrian's bright young underlings and he put in place the finance for Evergreen 1, 2 and 3. Laing Rail as people will remember was the largest (and in the end only) shareholder in WSMR.

WSMR was indeed due to lease Class 170s, but DfT stopped it. That then led to EWS (as was) proposing Class 67s and Mk3s, the latter being purchased by Laing Rail. Laing Rail had Mk3s because it was going to refurbish them for use on upcoming Chiltern Evergreen 3 services to Birmingham and Oxford because no DMUs were available.

The first problem was the locohaul sets couldn't utilise Sprinter Speed Differentials, which meant the paths identified by WSMR couldn't be used, which worsened the journey times a lot. On the Chiltern Mainline that got partly resolved in the end, but not everywhere. The second problem was Virgin Trains had an anti competition clause in their franchise, which meant WSMR couldn't serve Birmingham or Wolverhampton as the business plan needed. The third and fatal problem was that Laing sold Laing Rail to DB Regio, who then refused to fund refurbishment of the Chiltern Mk3s for Evergreen 3. WSMR had lost a lot of money but was at break even when it closed. The reason for closing it was that the locohaul sets were needed for Evergreen 3 services because no other trains were available and Chiltern would have defaulted the franchise without running the extra Evergreen 3 services.

With those three problems gone, (i.e. Class 221s not locohaul, no anti-competition clause for Avanti and no internal German politics) it might work.

There are paths on the WCML fast lines which the Avanti timetable has, ahum, created......

 

[Sealink]

Who is behind this new operator? If it's at all new.....why would it work this time round?

You don't have the famously "competition welcomed" Virgin Trains about...

 

[The Planner]

You don't have the famously "competition welcomed" Virgin Trains about...

Virgin had no choice to object. They were told to.

 

[Sealink]

Virgin had no choice to object. They were told to.

I had no idea, were they told to launch a Wrexham Euston service too?

 

[The Planner]

I had no idea, were they told to launch a Wrexham Euston service too?

Nope, but WSMR could/would have objected.

 

[Zontar]

An internal document at Avanti has been released hatching expressions of interest for the new Crewe depot (again).
Within it it cites possible routes from Wrexham to gobowen, Shrewsbury, wolves etc. seems they are intent on bidding for similar services.

 

[rich.davies]

An internal document at Avanti has been released hatching expressions of interest for the new Crewe depot (again).
Within it it cites possible routes from Wrexham to gobowen, Shrewsbury, wolves etc. seems they are intent on bidding for similar services.

They can't even run the routes they have now, never mind planning additional new ones. (Covered in depth in the main Avanti thread).

 

[Bald Rick]

They can't even run the routes they have now, never mind planning additional new ones. (Covered in depth in the main Avanti thread).

There’s a difference between “now” and at least 18 mknths away, which is the earliest they coudl run more services. Avanti are recruiting and training drivers at a high rate. They also have more drivers now than they ever have had.

 

[Zontar]

Sorry forgot to add...they want to open Crewe depot up by December 2024

 

[TDK]

I'm not sure on the length of 3 but I don't think it's long, and the bays are certainly not passenger-rated, nor easy to make them so. Easiest option will be to shunt into Croes Newydd Goods Loop off Platform 2 and shunt back into Platform 1 to start back.

There isn't a signalled move from platform 2 to the Goods, only from platform 3.

 

[zwk500]

There isn't a signalled move from platform 2 to the Goods, only from platform 3.

Interesting, useful to know!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Which paths are those? Imaginary spare paths or the ones that don’t exist?

Maybe I'm out of date, but aren't there the paths the OA Blackpool-Euston planned to use?
Train frequency south of Rugby is no higher than it was pre-covid, though capacity might have gone down with Avanti's slower 80x.
There'll be plenty of room after HS2 opens.

 

[Bartsimho]

Maybe I'm out of date, but aren't there the paths the OA Blackpool-Euston planned to use?
Train frequency south of Rugby is no higher than it was pre-covid, though capacity might have gone down with Avanti's slower 80x.
There'll be plenty of room after HS2 opens.

As that's Avanti's 125mph booked services any slower trains might gain a slight bit of capacity but not lose it as it brings the speed differential down between booked services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe I'm out of date, but aren't there the paths the OA Blackpool-Euston planned to use?
Train frequency south of Rugby is no higher than it was pre-covid, though capacity might have gone down with Avanti's slower 80x.
There'll be plenty of room after HS2 opens.

@The Planner will confirm, but the timetable is a living thing. While those OA paths might have existed back in 2020, there’s been a major recast and many other changes since then.

 

[The Planner]

@The Planner will confirm, but the timetable is a living thing. While those OA paths might have existed back in 2020, there’s been a major recast and many other changes since then.

Timetable creep happens all the time, but GC were a big part of the construction of Dec 22. I don't think they have been edged out.

 

[Pumbaa]

The Stirling paths are in there yes.