Wrexham,VT & ATW spoiling tactics

[The Planner]

Why cant you understand that the Marylebone proposal would be a reality if it wasnt for Virgins moderation of competetion ??

If they find a way around it, which is possible, as they already have bone fide stops at Wolves, New St and International which Virgin cannot take from them.

The likely way around it is for ATW to not sell tickets to London from either of those three stations.

 

[merlodlliw]

Why cant you understand that the Marylebone proposal would be a reality if it wasnt for Virgins moderation of competetion ??

If they find a way around it, which is possible, as they already have bone fide stops at Wolves, New St and International which Virgin cannot take from them.

The likely way around it is for ATW to not sell tickets to London from either of those three stations.

In ATWs very glossy & expensive leaflet about stops, they have already discounted those three stations as protected by Virgin, but say they expect customers to travel to Smethick to pick up their service.
This is all pie in the Sky with Chilten trains around the corner to Marylebone
with an hourly or less service, who in there right mind would travel to
Smethick for a 158DMU, the whole idea is bonkers.

 

[tbtc]

After 7 years the franchise is still a disaster,eight hour journeys on the despised 158s

Eight hour journeys? Between where, and please tell me what traction/ speeds should be attained on this journey?

As for your other complaints, I honestly don't know where you expect them to find "spare" trains on the network (unless they use 1970s coaches like your favourite operarator, but I'm sure you'd still criticise them if they did).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is all pie in the Sky with Chilten trains around the corner to Marylebone with an hourly or less service, who in there right mind would travel to Smethick for a 158DMU, the whole idea is bonkers.

I'm sure the train would do well enough with the existing west Wales to/from Birmingham and the new west Wales to/from London passengers without worrying about the Birmingham to London passengers.

However, I thought you were all for giving local stops a direct link to London?

As for Birmingham International - isn't it possible to run from there to London? I thought the story was that WSMR were allowed to carry passengers between the two (under the rules) but chose not to?

 

[ukrob]

merlodlliw I think I could sum you up as the following:

You are in love with WSMR, you hate 158's and for these two reasons there is no point debating with you as you are so biased that you refuse to listen to facts?

 

[merlodlliw]

OK, yes I like WSMR it had a go at an area no one wanted.

and 158s yes I dislike them, having said that as I started the thread

now its time to finish it, now that VT as been seen off.


Bob

 

[thefab444]

Lucky for ATW there is
a real railway company on that line with real trains that put on extra
capacity with its voygers.

So now you're singing full of praise for Virgin.

Make your mind up! :roll:

 

[merlodlliw]

So now you're singing full of praise for Virgin.

Make your mind up! :roll:

and finally, nothing wrong with VT on its franchised routes whatsover,so
long as it behaves itself, VT can seem to pluck spare voyagers out of thin air, my only beef was the fact it was attempting to
kill off W/S, which everyone now knows was the case, the final straw
was the national press running stories.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Eight hour journeys? Between where, and please tell me what traction/ speeds should be attained on this journey?

As I reply the ATW 1510 Milford Haven is departing for Manchester Picc,it is timed to arrive at 2115 that is 6 hours 5 minutes,often 158s are used,that must be a near death experience. Mind you 6 hours on a 175 is bad enough.
This train if often over an hour late

 

[ukrob]

As I reply the ATW 1510 Milford Haven is departing for Manchester Picc,it is timed to arrive at 2115 that is 6 hours 5 minutes,often 158s are used,that must be a near death experience. Mind you 6 hours on a 175 is bad enough.
This train if often over an hour late

And how many people would you say travel end to end on that route?

It is a bit like saying why do Virgin run Pendolinos between Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport when a single Class 153 would do.

 

[Voyager 2093]

does anyone know what trains ATW were planning to use on thier London Marlyebone service? Personally i think they should just stick to thier Wales services, there is no point of three services out of London to the same destination

 

[tbtc]

Eight hour journeys? Between where

As I reply the ATW 1510 Milford Haven is departing for Manchester Picc,it is timed to arrive at 2115 that is 6 hours 5 minutes,often 158s are used,that must be a near death experience

So, your "eight hour journey" on a 158 turned out to be a six hour journey on a route dominated by 175s...

Not quite the same. And, as has been pointed out, not a route where you'd expect many people to do the full journey. Mind you, it is a direct link on a nice clockface timetable created by ATW, surely the kind of thing you should be praising them for?

please tell me what traction/ speeds should be attained on this journey?

Still no answer to this though - if you're going to criticise ATW for this then please suggest the alternative...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is a bit like saying why do Virgin run Pendolinos between Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport when a single Class 153 would do.

I'm outraged that NXEC run 125s from Edinburgh Waverley to Haymarket

Surely a Parry People Mover would be more appropriate

 

[The Planner]

All this love for WSMR needs to be converted to passenger numbers then. If everyone in Wrexham is so in love with the service, why isnt it packed out every train that runs ?? It certainly needs the pax or DB wont keep chucking money at it, they will pull the plug plain and simple.

 

[merlodlliw]

All this love for WSMR needs to be converted to passenger numbers then. If everyone in Wrexham is so in love with the service, why isnt it packed out every train that runs ?? It certainly needs the pax or DB wont keep chucking money at it, they will pull the plug plain and simple.

It carries a dam sight more passengers than the 3 year Virgin trial to Llandudno from Euston, that service carried less than four a train from Llandudno and perhaps one or two a week to London, just as a comparator.

Also record numbers have been carried on W/S this Easter weekend
Fri To Mon according to staff at Wrexham Station last evening.
Source Wrexham Evening Leader reporter.

 

[The Planner]

One holiday weekend doesnt make a financial year....

 

[175001]

It carries a dam sight more passengers than the 3 year Virgin trial to Llandudno from Euston, that service carried less than four a train from Llandudno and perhaps one or two a week to London, just as a comparator.

That is quite an unbalanced comparison.

Llandudno didn't work, as it was easier to get to Llandudno Junction to catch the earlier afternoon Pendo which got into London 30 mins ahead of the Voyager, despite only departing around 7 minutes before the voyager got into the Junction. And also, Llandudno attracts most of its visitors, either by coach, or by car, with a large flow coming by train from the North West, i.e Manchester/Liverpool area

And lay off ATW! They've done a darn sight better at running services up here, than the previous operators did. Now, we have a stable 30 minute frequency from Chester to the Junction. And capacity issues is nothing to do with ATW, blame DaFT for that, for saying that the franchise will receive no extra carriages within its franchise, of which they have 9 years left to run. Thats not ATW's fault!

 

[merlodlliw]

That is quite an unbalanced comparison.



And lay off ATW! They've done a darn sight better at running services up here, than the previous operators did. Now, we have a stable 30 minute frequency from Chester to the Junction. And capacity issues is nothing to do with ATW, blame DaFT for that, for saying that the franchise will receive no extra carriages within its franchise, of which they have 9 years left to run. Thats not ATW's fault!

Now come on, in BR days they had a 30 minute freq to the Junction, FNW also
had this freq , so nine years of hell left with ATW thought it was 8.Anyhow
ATW took on the all Wales franchise , so where is all this surplus capacity for London coming from.

As for the Llandudno VT service, now that was good market research
by VT, almost like WAG EXPRESS
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

does anyone know what trains ATW were planning to use on thier London Marlyebone service? Personally i think they should just stick to thier Wales services, there is no point of three services out of London to the same destination

158 DMUs says ATW leaflet.

 

[175001]

As for the Llandudno VT service, now that was good market research
by VT, almost like WAG EXPRESS

As said earlier here, the Gerallt Gymro, was not planned by ATW, it is the Assembly's idea. In fact, it was Grand Union who wanted to run the paths initially, and not ATW. ATW were given the right to operate the service due to funding laws regarding the Welsh franchise, and that it was cheaper to let ATW run it, and not GU.

 

[merlodlliw]

As said earlier here, the Gerallt Gymro, was not planned by ATW, it is the Assembly's idea. In fact, it was Grand Union who wanted to run the paths initially, and not ATW. ATW were given the right to operate the service due to funding laws regarding the Welsh franchise, and that it was cheaper to let ATW run it, and not GU.

Agree with part of your responce, however the Wag Express run by
ATW with a subsidy of £7,600 a day, is milking the system, I was under the impression W/S also put in a proposal of interest according to Andy Hamilton
when the service was put out to tender.

However if funding laws operate or should operate for best value,I wonder
why the tender was publically advertised,Ieuan was very cagy about the
amount of subsidy paid to ATW until pushed, however ATW chose the route
which is still strange to a lot of people as the train is part of the All Wales
plan, OK reasons why Wrexham is left out are exhausted, but strange
that this train can replace a 175 on Saturdays when it goes to Canton
for repairs via Wrexham. Perhaps Hereford will be included next time as this is a ATW station, there are reasons given why the return Cwmbran is a stop
almost like stopping at Abergele, but this train needs fare paying passengers
to/from Cardiff , at the moment all reports see it as a semi fast service to Crewe. Anyhow a true headcount will be interesting, but I dont see this
made public, when Mark Isherwood A.M. was told only a manual headcount
is possible on board the train,

See You

 

[Metroland]

Sir, Several claims have been made about Virgin Trains’ plans to run a service between Shrewsbury and London (April 7, 8, 10). Wrexham & Shropshire is a “tiddler” but it is owned by the German state railway Deutsche Bahn. Virgin believes that this investment is part of DB’s move into the UK rail industry.

The claim that W&S has the cheapest fares in Britain is wrong as Virgin Trains already offers lower fares on services between Wrexham and London, starting from £8. Virgin Trains planned to run faster trains than W&S at different times and to guarantee our service until the end of our franchise. However, we would not want to be accused of being anti-competitive, so we have decided to withdraw the additional services.

In return, I think that the people of Shrewsbury should now receive firm assurances from DB and W&S that they will continue to run this service for years to come.

Sir Richard Branson

London W6

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article6093519.ece

 

[TDK]

All this love for WSMR needs to be converted to passenger numbers then. If everyone in Wrexham is so in love with the service, why isnt it packed out every train that runs ?? It certainly needs the pax or DB wont keep chucking money at it, they will pull the plug plain and simple.

Every WSMR train over the last week has been full and Wrexham isn't it's only catcment area.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One holiday weekend doesnt make a financial year....

The business has only been operating for 1 year, any business that stats out need to build and WSMR have been constantly building their passenger base since the start. Correct, 1 holiday weekend will boost the passenger count. You obviously do not have facts or figures to comment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sir, Several claims have been made about Virgin Trains’ plans to run a service between Shrewsbury and London (April 7, 8, 10). Wrexham & Shropshire is a “tiddler” but it is owned by the German state railway Deutsche Bahn. Virgin believes that this investment is part of DB’s move into the UK rail industry.

The claim that W&S has the cheapest fares in Britain is wrong as Virgin Trains already offers lower fares on services between Wrexham and London, starting from £8. Virgin Trains planned to run faster trains than W&S at different times and to guarantee our service until the end of our franchise. However, we would not want to be accused of being anti-competitive, so we have decided to withdraw the additional services.

In return, I think that the people of Shrewsbury should now receive firm assurances from DB and W&S that they will continue to run this service for years to come.

Sir Richard Branson

London W6

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article6093519.ece

Looks like Sir Richard may be worried about the WC franchise renewal reading between the lines, that quote by Richard "Wrexham & Shropshire is a “tiddler” but it is owned by the German state railway Deutsche Bahn. Virgin believes that this investment is part of DB’s move into the UK rail industry.
looks to me as it was Virgins intention to squash WSMR to keep DB out! Will VT try to start freight to compete with DB (EWS) or try to get paths from Birminham Moor Street to Marylebone next? The reality of the very unusual poster regarding Chiltern now allmake sence.

 

[Metroland]

looks to me as it was Virgins intention to squash WSMR to keep DB out!

*nods*

 

[merlodlliw]

*nods*

How long as W/S been owned by DB, over a year? Also Branson states £8
booked months in advance,I have never seen the offer, as for walk on VT £201
W/S almost £150 cheaper without rail cards.

Interesting letter from Branson, I bet when he found out VT had the axe out,he said a few nice coachmans words to his staff.


Bob

 

[glynn80]

there are reasons given why the return Cwmbran is a stop almost like stopping at Abergele, but this train needs fare paying passengers to/from Cardiff , at the moment all reports see it as a semi fast service to Crewe. Anyhow a true headcount will be interesting, but I dont see this made public, when Mark Isherwood A.M. was told only a manual headcount is possible on board the train,

I travelled on this service yesterday and the services was packed leaving Cardiff- full and standing. Cwmbran and Abergavenny were both very well used with at least 12 passengers departing at both. It also seemed to relieve pressure off the 1612 service to Newport as it arrived into platform 1 about 15-20 minutes prior to its departure and passengers boarded our service rather than waiting for the 1612 to arrive from Maesteg.

I did venture into FC after Shrewsbury though and saw only one person in there, so ATW probably were about right having only half a coach allocated for FC.

Also with regard to WSMR, I was appalled to see how long the service took end to end.

Catching the last service from Wrexham at 1123 it would take 4 hours 10 minutes to reach London, arriving at 1533.

You could leave Wrexham 39 minutes later at 1202, arrive into Chester at 1219, depart Chester again at 1235 and be in London at 1438. Practically an hour and a half saving. No wonder Wrexham has been pulled as a destination for many WSMR services.

Also Branson states £8 booked months in advance, I have never seen the offer, as for walk on VT £201 W/S almost £150 cheaper without rail cards.

Well VT has two walk-up fares from Wrexham, one at £201 if you wish to arrive into Euston before 1055 and depart again between 1515 and 1832, the other being at £66.40 allowing arrival into Euston after 1055 and barring travel between 1515 and 1832 .

Now the only service that WSMR is cheaper on is the 0512 from Wrexham allowing arrival into Marylebone at 0857, even the 0723 from Wrexham which arrives into London at 1123 can be beaten by leaving Wrexham at 0802 and arriving into London at 1108. Returning from London the only service it makes sense going on this ticket with WSMR is the 1633 but even then you could leave Euston at 1910 and still not arrive into Wrexham that much later (2023 against 2137)

 

[Daimler]

looks to me as it was Virgins intention to squash WSMR to keep DB out!

*nods too*

 

[merlodlliw]

I travelled on this service yesterday and the services was packed leaving Cardiff- full and standing. Cwmbran and Abergavenny were both very well used with at least 12 passengers departing at both. It also seemed to relieve pressure off the 1612 service to Newport as it arrived into platform 1 about 15-20 minutes prior to its departure and passengers boarded our service rather than waiting for the 1612 to arrive from Maesteg.

I did venture into FC after Shrewsbury though and saw only one person in there, so ATW probably were about right having only half a coach allocated for FC.

One person in first class, sounds about right, it just seems not what it was
intended for, just a replacement for a 158 for commuters to go Cardiff to Abergaveny,likewise in the morning Holyhead to Crewe where it empties
and is seen as a semi fast relief.

 

[TDK]

Well VT has two walk-up fares from Wrexham, one at £201 if you wish to arrive into Euston before 1055 and depart again between 1515 and 1832, the other being at £66.40 allowing arrival into Euston after 1055 and barring travel between 1515 and 1832 .

Now the only service that WSMR is cheaper on is the 0512 from Wrexham allowing arrival into Euston at 0857, even the 0723 from Wrexham which arrives into London at 1123 can be beaten by leaving Wrexham at 0802 and arriving into London at 1108. Returning from London the only service it makes sense going on this ticket with WSMR is the 1633 but even then you could leave Euston at 1910 and still not arrive into Wrexham that much later (2023 against 2137)[/QUOTE]


You need to do your homework! WSMR do not go into Euston, the only reason the WSMR service takes so long is the restrictions they face with the political farce with the WCML. All WSMR standard fares are £40 return now so all are cheaper than Virgin with a £20 advance availableon their web site.

 

[tbtc]

the Wag Express run by ATW with a subsidy of £7,600 a day, is milking the system, I was under the impression W/S also put in a proposal of interest according to Andy Hamilton when the service was put out to tender

I love it how you're blaming ATW for the waste of money

They offered that price - it was up to the politicians to accept it, accept another bidder, or not bother.

If you pals at W&S bid for it, then they must be ridiculously expensive in comparison!

As for Branson and DB - it's obvious that the Wrexham service is a trojan horse to investigate potential extension of Chiltern services to profitable Telford and Shrewsbury. They probably only extended it to Wrexham because they knew the gullible Welsh politicians would throw money at them if they did

PS: Eight Quid for Wrexham to London is a bargain
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WSMR do not go into Euston, the only reason the WSMR service takes so long is the restrictions they face with the political farce with the WCML

The WCML is a 125mph railway. W&S don't have fast enough trains.

 

[glynn80]

You need to do your homework! WSMR do not go into Euston, the only reason the WSMR service takes so long is the restrictions they face with the political farce with the WCML. All WSMR standard fares are £40 return now so all are cheaper than Virgin with a £20 advance availableon their web site.

I do realise WSMR do not go to Euston just a slight mistake while looking at two different timetables.

The point I make is still perfectly valid and it does not matter if the service goes to any of the London termini. And the political farce you state that is increasing their journey time, is not an excuse for anyone to travel on WSMR, it is just a fact of life that you have to deal with and make your travelling decisions based on it.

I think you'll find though that if you do your homework is that WSMR do not sell a £40.00 return from Wrexham, it is £53.00 from Wrexham, the £40.00 fare corresponds to Shrewsbury and certainly isn't from "all" of their stations. So the £13.00 extra (less for railcard holders) seems a bargain to me for the much greater flexibility in terms of both the route you can take (valid on both WSMR and Virgin via Birmingham, Chester and many other routes) plus the hour and a half (sometimes in excess) saved.

WSMR may also sell £20.00 advance singles as well (although their website offers them from £10.00) but Virgin offers Advance singles also at a cheaper rate, here is the bottom four Advance fares of the 14 different Advance fares they offer.

VBS 18.50
VCS 12.50
VDS 9.50
VES 7.00

 

[voyagerdude220]

VBS VR S 18.50
VCS VR S 12.50
VDS VR S 9.50
VES VR S 7.00

VCS/VDS/VES fares are very rarely available on Virgin Trains, sometimes literally only one or two out of 25-30 services (based on where services run every 20 minutes- so Wrexham has very little chance) each weekday offers these fare ranges, and when they do, it's usually at inconvenient times which aren't very much use to business passengers, or people visiting friends/relatives- e.g. very late in the evening trains.

 

[merlodlliw]

I love it how you're blaming ATW for the waste of money

They offered that price - it was up to the politicians to accept it, accept another bidder, or not bother.

If you pals at W&S bid for it, then they must be ridiculously expensive in comparison!

As for Branson and DB - it's obvious that the Wrexham service is a trojan horse to investigate potential extension of Chiltern services to profitable Telford and Shrewsbury. They probably only extended it to Wrexham because they knew the gullible Welsh politicians would throw money at them if they did

PS: Eight Quid for Wrexham to London is a bargain
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The WCML is a 125mph railway. W&S don't have fast enough trains.

Tough, when did you travel on W/S or the WAG Express, Branson as been hurt, because his Company as been caught out,

 

[ukrob]

Tough, when did you travel on W/S or the WAG Express, Branson as been hurt, because his Company as been caught out,

Ahh it all becomes clear. You have a vendetta against Richard Branson. I fail to see how anyone has been 'caught out'.