WY MetroCard + South Elmsall

[Solent&Wessex]

I think some people are getting a bit confused about Metrocards. It is NOT a National Rail product. It is a WYPTE (or whatever it is called nowadays) product that just happens to be valid on rail. As per the wording on the Metrocard Ts & Cs:

Holders of MetroCard are carried on services subject to Metro's Conditions of Use and the Conditions of Carriage of the operator in question, i.e. the relevant bus company or train operator.

So, a Metrocard is bound not just by the NRCOC but also Metro's own conditions.

So while NRCOC may allow a split at South Elmsall, does Metro add more onerous restrictions, and can it do so?

I would say yes, it has the right to impose whatever conditions it chooses - it is their ticket. Then the next question is can the "Cross Boundary Leaflet" become part of the Metrocard conditions? That depends on how the validity for cross boundary travel is referred to in the relevant Metrocard publicity. Which as we have found is somewhat vague depending on where you look.

A ticket such is this, which is NOT a National Rail Product but is issued by somebody else and happens to be valid for certain rail journeys can, I believe, be bound to more than one set of Ts & Cs.

 

[Starmill]

Interesting point. Do people/TOCs want the op to pay more for the journey, or does the op want to pay less?

Agreed actually, it is interesting. In answer... I don't think those are mutually exclusive.

 

[Deerfold]

On East Coast and Cross Country they only check between Leeds and Wakefield (for Leeds to Wakefield tickets) so by using a combination of tickets E/C and X/C would still only receive payment for the Leeds to Wakefield part of the journey . -obviously E/C and X/C are not going to carry you for nothing hence metro products are invalid south of Wakefield and you would be charged Wakefield to/from donnie /sheff.

East Coast trains quite happily accept Metrocards and Day Rovers to/from Bradford, Shipley and Keighley (and I've been checked many times). I'm assuming if you had a zone 6/7 card (which is only valid on trains) then you could travel to/from Skipton or Harrogate.

I've yet to see a Metro official checking on any of these trains despite catching at least 2 EC trains a week for the last 7 years (I have seen them on other trains and buses). How small a sample of trains is checked?

How much do you think EC would get on a combination of (for example) a season Leeds - South Emsall and a single South Emsall to Doncaster?

 

[bb21]

I think some people are getting a bit confused about Metrocards. It is NOT a National Rail product. It is a WYPTE (or whatever it is called nowadays) product that just happens to be valid on rail. As per the wording on the Metrocard Ts & Cs:

Using your logic, no PTE product is a National Rail product, hence there would be no point making reference to PTE products in the NRCoC at all as there would be no impact.

In fact, the exact wording in the NRCoC is:

When you buy a ticket to travel on scheduled services on the National Rail Network you make an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains the ticket allows you to use.

This introduction summarises the key rights and obligations within that agreement.
...

A Metrocard is still a ticket to travel on scheduled services on the National Rail Network.

Which brings us back to the question I asked earlier.

 

[Starmill]

I had the two staff on my train once! Must say, as a Manc is was very strange having people coming down the train asking for tickets and not selling them! My North West rover made a good conversion though!

When they checked mine, I had a rover, a CDR and an AP TPE ONLY Advance! I wonder what they recorded it as!

 

[TUC]

Fair point, they could. Does the Cross-Boundary Travel leaflet (and .pdf) constitute publicity?

It helps ( http://www.wymetro.com/uploadedFiles/WYMetro/Content/TicketsAndPasses/CrossBoundaryinfoleaflet.pdf ) but I think where the problem comes is that it uses similar language to the NRCoC section 19 in referring to two zonal ticket or one rail season ticket/one not and then says that these combinations of ticket do not apply to Cross Country, East Midlands Trains or East Coast. As noted above, section 19a of the NRCoC allows the former (two zonal tickets) to have special restrictions but does not make provision for the latter to have such restrictions. So its unclear whether Metro are simply reproducing the NRCoC condition, but incorrectly acting as if they can add a restriction which the NRCoC does not allow, or whether they are confusingly using an identically worded condition of their own but throwing a restriction in..

Also, does the fact that TPE is not listed amongst the exclusions mean that you can do a rail season ticket/Metrocard combination for a journey out of West Yorkshire on ,for example, the Selby/Hull line with the Metrocard valid as far as Micklefield even though TPE does not stop there?

 

[yorkie]

....you can do a rail season ticket/Metrocard combination for a journey out of West Yorkshire on ,for example, the Selby/Hull line with the Metrocard valid as far as Micklefield even though TPE does not stop there?

NRCoC Condition 19(c) allows you to combine one (and only one) Season with any number of non-Seasons for one journey.

There is absolutely no requirement for the train to call.

Some Train Companies don't like the NRCoC, but that's tough. If they don't like it, don't bid for the franchise!

The book can be thrown at passengers for not adhering to the NRCoC, so I'd like to see some parity and equality when it comes to Train Companies refusing to adhere to the NRCoC

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Also, does the fact that TPE is not listed amongst the exclusions mean that you can do a rail season ticket/Metrocard combination for a journey out of West Yorkshire on ,for example, the Selby/Hull line with the Metrocard valid as far as Micklefield even though TPE does not stop there?

I don't think that is in doubt and I haven't seen anything to suggest it isn't valid.

 

[TUC]

I don't think that is in doubt and I haven't seen anything to suggest it isn't valid.

I asked because, if it is valid, it makes the exclusion of the other TOCs above make even less sense, because it therefore can't relate to it being a Northern Rail-only arrangement.

 

[yorkie]

I asked because, if it is valid, it makes the exclusion of the other TOCs above make even less sense, because it therefore can't relate to it being a Northern Rail-only arrangement.

I agree. But any secret arrangements, or revenue allocation matters are of no concern to passengers and do not in any way determine validity.

They may be of interest to people who want to know how things work but passengers don't need to know any of that stuff to determine if their ticket is valid. bb21 points out the correct position in post #34 above.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

We don't need to know the "secret arrangements" or revenue distribution. We need to know the T&Cs of the ticket. When we know what they are we can cross reference with the NRCoC and come to a conclusion. Can someone provide the definitive T&Cs?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Using your logic, no PTE product is a National Rail product, hence there would be no point making reference to PTE products in the NRCoC at all as there would be no impact.

In fact, the exact wording in the NRCoC is:



A Metrocard is still a ticket to travel on scheduled services on the National Rail Network.

Which brings us back to the question I asked earlier.

I am aware of your points and understand them. I am not saying that NRCoC DOES NOT apply, what I am saying is that as it is a PTE product, rather than a purely National Rail product, then is it bound by additional conditions imposed by the PTE? Can the same ticket have two sets of conditions - Generic conditions of use which apply to the ticket at all times (the PTE product specific conditions), and the conditions of use of the operator whose services are being used at the time, be they bus or rail? I would say Yes, it can, and as such if WYPTE want to make a cross boundary restriction, then I can see no reason why they cannot. Exactly the same as they make restrictions for certain bus journeys - it is a bus ticket, but has some restrictions on use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can someone provide the definitive T&Cs?

I doubt it, as there doesn't appear to be any. They seem to be slightly different depending on whether you look at the printed leaflets, Mcard website or Metrocard pages on the Metro website.

 

[jkdd77]

My opinion is that operators, including PTEs in relation to rail travel, are naturally free to set additional T & Cs relating to their products, subject to certain limitations prescribed by law, franchise agreements, and the NRCoC.

In theory, if an operator, or PTE acting in relation to rail travel, wished to grant additional rights over and above those contained in the NRCoC, they could do so, for example by choosing to set additional T & Cs to expressly make a ticket transferable, or by choosing to expressly permit starting or finishing short on an advance ticket, neither of which would normally be allowed. The granting of such additional rights could be awkward and unpopular in the case of inter-available journeys involving more than one operator.

In the case of an irreconcilable contradiction between the additional T & Cs and the express passenger rights contained in the NRCoC, the NRCoC takes precedence in relation to rail travel, both as per the NRCoC itself, and as per the franchise agreements.

In some cases, as with BoJ restrictions under Condition 16 and as with Condition 19(a) permitting certain restrictions on usage of combinations of zonal tickets, the NRCoC expressly permits such removal of rights, so there is no irreconcilable contradiction.

However, where there is such an irreconcilable contradiction, it is my opinion that the T & Cs would be null and void to the extent that they deny explicit passenger rights guaranteed by the NRCoC.

My tentative view is that the combination referred to in the OP is *probably* technically valid, although I stand to be persuaded otherwise, and I suspect that it is not intended to be so.

 

[Starmill]

I asked because, if it is valid, it makes the exclusion of the other TOCs above make even less sense, because it therefore can't relate to it being a Northern Rail-only arrangement.

I agree. It's the same as the Grand Central thing I mentioned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We don't need to know the "secret arrangements" or revenue distribution. We need to know the T&Cs of the ticket. When we know what they are we can cross reference with the NRCoC and come to a conclusion. Can someone provide the definitive T&Cs?

I don't think there are any. This is a public body simply trying to do its best for its passengers rather than squeeze every penny out of them in the way the TOCs do. I doubt anyone working at Metro truly understands (or cares?) for the very very fine details of the NRCoC that we are going in to here.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't think there are any. This is a public body simply trying to do its best for its passengers rather than squeeze every penny out of them in the way the TOCs do. I doubt anyone working at Metro truly understands (or cares?) for the very very fine details of the NRCoC that we are going in to here.

Terms for Metrocards appear to be here:

http://www.m-card.co.uk/get-mcard/period-tickets/#terms

They're very brief and make no mention of validity at the boundary.

I'm not sure from this why anyone would think they need to find a leaflet about boundaries - the terms state that the operators' conditions apply so I can understand someone going looking for them.

 

[TUC]

I don't think there are any. This is a public body simply trying to do its best for its passengers rather than squeeze every penny out of them in the way the TOCs do. I doubt anyone working at Metro truly understands (or cares?) for the very very fine details of the NRCoC that we are going in to here.

I don't think it's anything to do with public vs private. There were equivalents to the NRCoC in pre-franchise days and the issue of boundary inter-validities would still have arisen.

As for no one in Metro understanding or caring about the 'very, very fine details' of the NRCoC, what we are discussing is not a very, very fine detail. It is the applicability of one condition in the NRCoC, the very one which is relevant to zonal vs other tickets. Moreover it's one where Metro have basically used the same wording-so they are clearly aware of it-but have added some confusing additional aspects that do not easily fit with that condition. Understanding the NRCoC is not a nice add-on for a strategic public transport body like Metro. It's part of their bread and butter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Terms for Metrocards appear to be here:

http://www.m-card.co.uk/get-mcard/period-tickets/#terms

They're very brief and make no mention of validity at the boundary.

I'm not sure from this why anyone would think they need to find a leaflet about boundaries - the terms state that the operators' conditions apply so I can understand someone going looking for them.

Because a multi-operator-and particularly a zonal-ticket will need its own conditions on boundary availability that aren't set out by individual operators. The reference to individual operators conditions of carriage is more in terms of the broader conditions that cover your journey with them.

 

[Deerfold]

Because a multi-operator-and particularly a zonal-ticket will need its own conditions on boundary availability that aren't set out by individual operators. The reference to individual operators conditions of carriage is more in terms of the broader conditions that cover your journey with them.

Are there some of those for travelcards or do we just use the NRCoC?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Are there some of those for travelcards or do we just use the NRCoC?

TfL has Conditions of Carriage, which covers availabilty on London Buses, London Underground and National Rail services.

 

[Deerfold]

TfL has Conditions of Carriage, which covers availabilty on London Buses, London Underground and National Rail services.

My point exactly - we look at the Conditions of Carriage, not a random leaflet explaining where the boundaries of an area are.

TfL's conditions seem fairly comprehensive, but I can't see anything in them about travelling over the London Zonal boundary - presumably we have to rely on the NRCoC? If I've missed something in TfL's conditions, feel free to let me know what.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I doubt TfL have much cause to mention it, I realise some buses might go beyond, but that's a pretty small number. Travelcard extensions on National Rail would most often be covered by 'boundary zone fares' which, as we know, are a special case.

But it might be worth pointing out that the restrictions on the use of Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect (between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow) and South Eastern High Speed services are noted in the TfL CoC, rather than the NRCoC.

It seems to me that if the conditions of WYPTE Metrocards aren't easily found, then a leaflet about cross boundary journeys would be exactly what I need to see about conditions for cross boundary journeys.

iKB does list some conditions on the use of cross boundary journeys on WYPTE issued ENCTS passes and TfGM issued 'Mobility Impaired' ENCTS passes, though they aren't often followed from what I know.

 

[Deerfold]

I doubt TfL have much cause to mention it, I realise some buses might go beyond, but that's a pretty small number. Travelcard extensions on National Rail would most often be covered by 'boundary zone fares' which, as we know, are a special case.

And for the public, completely undocumented.
Ideally there'd be something about this special case in the TfL conditions of carriage?

But it might be worth pointing out that the restrictions on the use of Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect (between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow) and South Eastern High Speed services are noted in the TfL CoC, rather than the NRCoC.

Quite true. Can you still use Boundary Zone tickets on the way to Heathrow?

It seems to me that if the conditions of WYPTE Metrocards aren't easily found, then a leaflet about cross boundary journeys would be exactly what I need to see about conditions for cross boundary journeys.

I'm sure I found them (such as they are) and posted them earlier in the thread.

They referred to the Operators' conditions of carriage (presumably incorporating the NRCoC for TOCs?) but not to any leaflet about cross-boundary journeys.

The main use of that leaflet has always been to work out where the boundaries are (and they've kept in stops on bus routes that no longer existed for years in at least 3 cases, all of which I told WYPTE about).

iKB does list some conditions on the use of cross boundary journeys on WYPTE issued ENCTS passes and TfGM issued 'Mobility Impaired' ENCTS passes, though they aren't often followed from what I know.

But nothing about this.


Tbh, I don't think Metro have the knowledge to coherently formulate a restriction like this - I suspect whoever wrote the paragraph you refer to does not properly understand condition 19.

 

[Starmill]

Regardless of how fine or otherwise this detail is, I can't see any evidence whatsoever that anyone at Metro has thought about it at all. And why should they? How many people are going to come up with something like this?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And for the public, completely undocumented.
Ideally there'd be something about this special case in the TfL conditions of carriage?

I don't think LUL or London Buses do boundary zone extensions in the same way, but I don't recall anything in the TfLCoC.

....Quite true. Can you still use Boundary Zone tickets on the way to Heathrow?....

Definitely not on Heathrow Express.

....I'm sure I found them (such as they are) and posted them earlier in the thread....

There was a link to the MCard site, but that's not really very helpful.

....Tbh, I don't think Metro have the knowledge to coherently formulate a restriction like this - I suspect whoever wrote the paragraph you refer to does not properly understand condition 19.

It could well be just that, but then again......

 

[Deerfold]

I don't think LUL or London Buses do boundary zone extensions in the same way, but I don't recall anything in the TfLCoC.

Quite. I wonder why not.

London buses have a single fare. Any travelcard is valid on any bus.

Definitely not on Heathrow Express.

And Connect?

Definitely
There was a link to the MCard site, but that's not really very helpful.

I don't see why not - it was a link to the Metrocard "General Terms of Use". I am unable to find any other terms which cover a Metrocard. The Paper leaflet is very similar. I'll see if I can find a current one.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....And Connect?....

If you had a 6 zone Travelcard you'd have to pay from Hayes and Harlington, and I'd imagine the zone 5 people would have to do the same, others might be fine, but I'd want to check iKB before committing to that answer.

....I don't see why not - it was a link to the Metrocard "General Terms of Use". I am unable to find any other terms which cover a Metrocard. The Paper leaflet is very similar. I'll see if I can find a current one.

The website mentions a "Conditions of Use" but doesn't provide a link, I imagine that is probably something generic though. Equally there is only "purchasing terms and conditions" and "holder's responsibilities", neither of which actually cover the validity of the Metrocard.

There are some mentions of trains:

....

All MetroCards are valid on virtually all ordinary stopping bus services within West Yorkshire. Exceptions are NightRiders, football or concert specials, long distance coaches, excursions, tours, contract, chartered or other privately hired bus or train services

Holders of MetroCard are carried on services subject to Metro's Conditions of Use and the Conditions of Carriage of the operator in question, i.e. the relevant bus company or train operator. In addition passengers are subject to PCV Regulations and local byelaws.

....

b) The MetroCard must be shown to the driver when boarding any bus, to the ticket inspector when passing through a train station barrier or to the conductor on the train.

....

Important notes

a) Metro and bus and train operators will make every reasonable effort to maintain services within the MetroCard system, but will not be liable for any loss, expense, claim damage, injury or inconvenience that passengers may sustain arising directly or indirectly from failure to operate a particular service. Subject to the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.....

Which doesn't actually tell me a lot. There is a potentially helpful sentence...

..... MetroCard provides unlimited travel on services where the ticket is valid.....

But again it isn't much help.

 

[TUC]

Tbh, I don't think Metro have the knowledge to coherently formulate a restriction like this - I suspect whoever wrote the paragraph you refer to does not properly understand condition 19.

Ummm...Metro's sole role is in relation to public transport. How could it not be a reasonable expectation for them to have knowledge and skills of this nature?

Put it another way, a number of us on this forum are not public transport professionals (although many are) and if we can understand the NRCoC, it's surely not unreasonable to expect Metro to.

 

[Deerfold]

Ummm...Metro's sole role is in relation to public transport. How could it not be a reasonable expectation for them to have knowledge and skills of this nature?

Put it another way, a number of us on this forum are not public transport professionals (although many are) and if we can understand the NRCoC, it's surely not unreasonable to expect Metro to.

Perhaps it's not unreasonable. However it remains my belief that they lack these skills. Metro have far fewer staff than an organisation like TfL. Their publicity materials regularly contain errors. They can't tell me when the shops which load tickets on MCards open (the details on the PayZone website are a work of fiction) yet are withdrawing the paper Metrocard in 2015 - so far they've not responded to me when I've asked if stations will be able to load MCards by then.

Despite assuring me they're working on it, their website hasn't handled 404 errors elegantly since it was relaunched 18 months ago.

The last e-mail I got from them seemed to have been written by someone who was functionally illiterate and made no sense whatsoever.

Even if we accept that the boundary leaflet is deliberately trying to introduce a restriction, it's an odd place to put it and it splits operators into those where a 19c split is allowed and those where it isn't but doesn't list all the operators which crossss the West Yorkshire boundary.

 

[Starmill]

There are a few commuters I know who use paper Metrocards for bus from their home to Huddersfield / Dewsbury / Bradford and then train to Leeds. None of them were aware of the existence of an Mcard let alone that they have less than a year to switch to one.

Already under 16 photocards have been withdrawn and post offices will stop selling paper Metrocards soon.

Metro's handling of the whole thing has been a minor disaster. In fact, I'm sure we used to have a thread for it?

 

[TUC]

There are a few commuters I know who use paper Metrocards for bus from their home to Huddersfield / Dewsbury / Bradford and then train to Leeds. None of them were aware of the existence of an Mcard let alone that they have less than a year to switch to one.

Already under 16 photocards have been withdrawn and post offices will stop selling paper Metrocards soon.

Metro's handling of the whole thing has been a minor disaster. In fact, I'm sure we used to have a thread for it?

To be fair to Metro, I'm a non-Metrocard user (as I live outside the area) and I've seem lots of publicity about M-Card in the past year.

 

[Leeds1970]

I apologise in advance as this is will be quite a long post and a some people may not like or agree with what I am posting and may wish to argue the toss quoting various rules and regulations. BUT……

The definitive (short) answer to the original question is as follows:

East Coast -does not permit the use of Metrocards on its services Except for Journeys made between:
Skipton (zone 7 cards only),Bradford Forster Square/Horsforth/Leeds and Wakefield

Cross Country- does not permit the use of Metrocards on its services except for journeys made between Leeds and Wakefield only.

Transpennine – Metrocards are not valid east of Garforth, or west of Huddersfield, (some TPE conductors do occasionally make announcements approaching Hudds).

Northern – Metrocards are valid on all services wholly within West Yorkshire.

ON ALL OPERATORS – For cross boundary travel, the ‘other’ ticket/pass must be valid from the last booked stopping point of the service being used. – example- if travelling between Leeds and Barnsley on the fast service the ‘other’ ticket/pass must be valid to/from Wakefield NOT Darton.
----------------------------------------

The Long answer and reason why the above applies- if you want it-

Metro is the promoter and issuer of the cards (but not an operator in its own right
), therefore, before the cards are put into the public domain a lengthy consultation document will be sent out to all potential operators. Once all replies are received, they are examined and the legal framework is then put into place. Metro will then set the conditions of use for that ticket, which can differ from national terms (as it is not a rail product), you may or may not agree with this deviation but the whole process is vigorously checked for legality.
Because Metrocards are a local authority ticket rather than a rail ticket, operators are not under any actual legal obligation to allow their use on their services but in the majority of cases decide (at the consultation stage/ sometimes after) to ‘opt in’. It is this ‘opt in’ that allows the train operator to further specify which services, times or to which boundary points the ticket will be accepted. Hence why East Coast does not allow use south of Wakefield. If East Coast or Cross Country so wished they could cease to accept the tickets for travel on all their services. The reason that E/C +X/C do ‘opt in’ For Leeds to Wakefield is because, they accept that due to the high footfall between the two stations, not allowing Metrocards would be pretty much unenforceable so, its better to get a regular reimbursement rather than the odd excess fare/penalty fare.

ENCS cards are another prime example – they are a bus pass and are bound by the terms and conditions set by the DfT. But in certain local authority area’s their own cards can be used to purchase discounted tickets or for free travel on rail after 09:30 -again because an operator will ‘opt in’ to a local scheme, as in the case of Metro issued passes, E/C + X/C do not allow their use south of Wakefield. A bizarre condition of the Metro ENCS pass is that the pass can only be used on services BOOKED to depart your chosen station after 09:30 – so if the 09:15 from your station arrives at 09:32 you should not board – however, this rule is seldom enforced.