XC enforcing invisible reservations

[BurtonM]

This is interesting - has happened to me. Train standing in Man Picc, and the screens are all off or 'available'. The guard comes down the train with a printout of what's reserved, telling everyone without a reservation to move. The guard is aware the train is rather full, and is directing anyone he turfs out of a seat to the extremely low number of unreservable seats with no screen, telling them that if there aren't any seats they'll have to stand. He then started making regular announcements saying that every seat possible on the train is reserved from Piccadilly to Birmingham New Street, but the screens aren't working, and he discouraged anyone without a reservation from sitting down. I arrived in good time for the train and got what I thought was an unreserved seat, however I ended up standing in the vestibule from Manchester to Wolverhampton.
Next time I'm not moving!

 

[drbdrb]

Simple solution is to just stick some headphones in ignore the guard.

What are they going to do, call BTP to enforce the non-existent reservations, and delaying the train in the process.

 

[Kite159]

I noticed that the 220s now have stickers on saying something like "even though it may say available, it could be reserved on-route and you may be asked to move", not sure if the 221s have something similar.

 

[Flamingo]

Simple solution is to just stick some headphones in ignore the guard.

What are they going to do, call BTP to enforce the non-existent reservations, and delaying the train in the process.

Simple solution - remove the passengers luggage as unclaimed;
"Does anybody own this bag? - No? It must be lost property (or it's causing an obstruction)"
Put it on to the platform at the next station

An easy way to get unwanted passengers to move both from carriages and the train as a whole, without calling BTP...

 

[185]

In that case you can refer the TM to Bylaw 19

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

A byelaw breach would occur from the time the seat is sat in - and assuming no notice was in place at the time that seat was first sat in, that person originally in the seat would, in my opinion, be in the right and will have satisfied the byelaw above, without question.

This is a nightmare situation for a TM trying to police/manage the situation.

 

[Taunton]

How does this differ from the approach with conventional seat reservation cards of the CSA coming down the train to put them in after the passengers have been allowed to board. Happens particularly at Paddington with late running inbounds trying for a quick turnround, passengers board and maybe fill the coach, meanwhile here comes the CSA sticking them in to seats with people sat in them, not a word said.

 

[Rich McLean]

Simple solution - remove the passengers luggage as unclaimed;
"Does anybody own this bag? - No? It must be lost property (or it's causing an obstruction)"
Put it on to the platform at the next station

An easy way to get unwanted passengers to move both from carriages and the train as a whole, without calling BTP...

Was it you who I saw do just this at Didcot Parkway a while ago?

 

[Flamingo]

Was it you who I saw do just this at Didcot Parkway a while ago?

Possibly, but it's a well-known option It's also an option when somebody dives into the loo when you say "Tickets Please"! They usually make their way to the buffet to recover their "Lost Property" which gives one time to inspect their ticket (or more usually, lack of) at leisure...

 

[drbdrb]

Simple solution - remove the passengers luggage as unclaimed;
"Does anybody own this bag? - No? It must be lost property (or it's causing an obstruction)"
Put it on to the platform at the next station

An easy way to get unwanted passengers to move both from carriages and the train as a whole, without calling BTP...

That only works if the bag is in a luggage rack unseen by the passenger.

If you reached up to the luggage rack or touched the bag on the floor next to me without my permission, you would be sent away with a flea in your ear.

 

[Flamingo]

That only works if the bag is in a luggage rack unseen by the passenger.

If you reached up to the luggage rack or touched the bag on the floor next to me without my permission, you would be sent away with a flea in your ear.

You wouldn't be the first to try Anyway, the purpose of it IS for the passenger to see, they then follow the bag :roll:

 

[BestWestern]

How does this differ from the approach with conventional seat reservation cards of the CSA coming down the train to put them in after the passengers have been allowed to board. Happens particularly at Paddington with late running inbounds trying for a quick turnround, passengers board and maybe fill the coach, meanwhile here comes the CSA sticking them in to seats with people sat in them, not a word said.

The train would generally not be advertised as ready for boarding until the turnaround crews have finished the labelling and cleaning. In the case that passengers do begin boarding, it's far less disruptive if they have to relocate at the very start of the journey, before the train has even left. The time taken to secure an HST (i.e. check everybody is off and close all of the doors) is generally considered to be better spent just getting on with the job of getting it turned around.

 

[Flamingo]

How does this differ from the approach with conventional seat reservation cards of the CSA coming down the train to put them in after the passengers have been allowed to board. Happens particularly at Paddington with late running inbounds trying for a quick turnround, passengers board and maybe fill the coach, meanwhile here comes the CSA sticking them in to seats with people sat in them, not a word said.

I've had this at Paddington with passengers who boarded before the train had been announced trying to claim that they were entitled to the seat as they had sat in it before reservations had been put out. It's not an argument that holds any weight in my book, and they get the option of moving or having plenty of time to kill on the platform at Reading to tweet that complaint about me...

 

[Taunton]

The train would generally not be advertised as ready for boarding until the turnaround crews have finished the labelling and cleaning

I've had this at Paddington with passengers who boarded before the train had been announced

No, how can all the crowd (including me) know which platform it is before it is announced at Paddington?

 

[Flamingo]

No, how can all the crowd (including me) know which platform it is before it is announced at Paddington?

Because the Network Rail app (stupidly) shows the platform when you look up the train time. Also, most trains usually go from the same platform day in day out. On an evening, it's not uncommon to see people standing on the platform waiting for the train to arrive so they can get on it. I have lost count of the number of times I've had a set-swap and after departure found people who thought that it was their "usual" train, now heading for Swansea, not Morton on Marsh or Bedwyn.

 

[bnm]

No, how can all the crowd (including me) know which platform it is before it is announced at Paddington?

T'internet.

All it takes is a look at RealTime Trains, for example, to see the allocated platform for your chosen service. Tiny risk of a late alteration, but when things are running okay it's a very good way to get an early heads up on platform number.

It's something I do whenever I'm at Paddington. However, if a seat reservation is subsequently placed on my seat (rare, as I usually go for the unreserved coaches) then I'll move. The last thing I want to do is run the wrath of Flamingo!


EDIT: Beaten to it by Flamingo. What he said. Although I'm clued up enough to keep checking there hasn't been a late swap.

 

[Flamingo]

The last thing I want to do is run the wrath of Flamingo!

Good man! I always say, they don't have to like you, they just have to fear you!

 

[Taunton]

I'll have one last go.

Last time, for example, the departure platform had come up on the screens (on the intermediate footbridge, where I tend to wait), which I had been waiting for. It was only 10 minutes to go. All piled in, here comes the reservation placer a little later - just before departure.

No RTT. No App. The departure screens.

 

[Flamingo]

Well, if that does happen, it's unfortunate but one of those things. You'd have to move if someone turned up.

 

[AlbaRail]

Spare a thought for those passengers joining an already full Voyager at an intermediate station - my father - well into his 80s - did just that - an earlier train had been cancelled leaving one train with the passengers from two trains - although my father had reserved a seat there were no reservations on the train - the person sitting in the seat which he had reserved refused to move - there were no other vacant seats and a good number of other passengers already standing - on train staff said that there was nothing they could do - result - my elderly father had to stand for two hours and decided that he would never travel by train again.

 

[drbdrb]

You wouldn't be the first to try Anyway, the purpose of it IS for the passenger to see, they then follow the bag :roll:

So you want to appear to be stealing someone's bag to get their attention.

Wow, really professional.

 

[Scotrail84]

A friend of mine was on XC the other day and the guard was announcing that despite the reservation system not working that reservations still applied and if a person came to your seat with a reservation you would be required ot vacate it which is absolutely ridiculous.

I wonder if you would wave your seat if you had a reservation and someone was in it with no seats to be had elsewhere?

 

[WillPS]

I once caught an XC service from Sheffield - York. When I got on, the TM was sensibly advising that the reservations system wasn't working so all seats were being treated as unreserved.

At Leeds, the new TM decided to reverse the policy, and insisted that people give up their seats to those presenting a reservation.

Utter chaos.

 

[Kite159]

And then you get some passengers who try and blag it saying they reserved that table seat, the sort who once blagged the table seat will bring out a macbook and not use it, just have it on display,

 

[Flamingo]

So you want to appear to be stealing someone's bag to get their attention.

Wow, really professional.

And putting your headphones in and pretending to ignore the guard is behaving like a spoilt brat, so I guess it's six of one, half a dozen of the other...

 

[drbdrb]

And putting your headphones in and pretending to ignore the guard is behaving like a spoilt brat, so I guess it's six of one, half a dozen of the other...

No.

Stealing luggage is a crime.

Ignoring someone trying to tell you nonsense is sensible.

 

[acned]

A byelaw breach would occur from the time the seat is sat in - and assuming no notice was in place at the time that seat was first sat in, that person originally in the seat would, in my opinion, be in the right and will have satisfied the byelaw above, without question.

This is a nightmare situation for a TM trying to police/manage the situation.

Hmmm... how about this. Train arrives in Manchester Piccadilly. Guard cancels old journey reservations, and presses "GO" to set up the computerised seat res. system for the next trip. Being a keen enthusiast, you are ready to board the train as soon as the last arriving passenger has alighted. You find a seat, the display is blank and you assume it is faulty, therefore you plonk yourself down in the seat. Two minutes later, the seat reservations ping up on the displays, and the sign above your head now says "RESERVED".

Would you really stand your ground and not move (or in this case sit!)?
Just a hypothetical question 185!

 

[Flamingo]

No.

Stealing luggage is a crime.

Ignoring someone trying to tell you nonsense is sensible.

A word to the wise, son - I can tell "you know your rights", but try that attitude with most Guards I know, and it will all end in tears - and they will be yours...

 

[David Goddard]

An example of the need for a backup plan for where the reservation screens are not working.
Many major locations still produce the card inserts, so surely the reservations could be reeled off there before the journey starts. Failing that, it shouldn't be too difficult at some point in the future to be able to download the reservations for a particular train to a POS terminal at the origin station.

All very well saying "no reservations" but if the customer has a reservation coupon then these ought to be honoured. People reserve seats for a reason and expect these to be honoured.

Does the following from NRCOC come into play here:

40. Reserving seats
Seats in some trains can be reserved before you travel and you may have to pay a fee. Unless you have a seat reservation, the Train Companies do not guarantee to provide a seat for your journey. You must have a valid ticket for your journey before reserving a seat. Each ticket allows you to reserve no more than one seat per person for each part of your journey.

Therefore, I read this that if you do have a reservation, the Train company has to guarantee to provide a seat.

 

[crehld]

An example of the need for a backup plan for where the reservation screens are not working.
Many major locations still produce the card inserts, so surely the reservations could be reeled off there before the journey starts. Failing that, it shouldn't be too difficult at some point in the future to be able to download the reservations for a particular train to a POS terminal at the origin station.

All very well saying "no reservations" but if the customer has a reservation coupon then these ought to be honoured. People reserve seats for a reason and expect these to be honoured.

Does the following from NRCOC come into play here:

40. Reserving seats
Seats in some trains can be reserved before you travel and you may have to pay a fee. Unless you have a seat reservation, the Train Companies do not guarantee to provide a seat for your journey. You must have a valid ticket for your journey before reserving a seat. Each ticket allows you to reserve no more than one seat per person for each part of your journey.

Therefore, I read this that if you do have a reservation, the Train company has to guarantee to provide a seat.

Indeed. And I guess this is why some TOCs offer compensation for being unable to provide a seat when you have a reservation (e.g. http://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/customer-service/seat-guarantee/)

 

[David Goddard]

Completely get that, and this is just, however personally, and especially if I was elderly/unable to stand, I would rather have had the seat rather than (eventually get) the compensation.