XC rolling stock speculation (including whether tilt could return)

[Discuss223]

Moderator note: Split from

Avanti Class 221s to Cross Country

Anyone know how many 221s are remaining with Avanti and when the remaining ones will transfer across? According to the 805 thread, all booked services will be 805s from December, so presumably they will have transferred by then. (I did search for a thread on this topic but could only find...

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The vast majority of my mileage is on 220/221 - Bristol to Leeds, Manchester or Edinburgh. Compared to 80 minutes on an 800 into Paddington, the 220/221 are IMHO far superior, their main downfall being capacity.
Also, on a combination of TOC and Network Rail performance, my journeys "up north" are far more reiable than those up to London...

I can vouch for that. I did Sheffield-Guildford non-stop on a Class 221 in First Class and was so comfortable throughout the whole journey that I nearly fell asleep. If I go from Grantham or Doncaster to King's Cross on a Hitachi in First Class, my back aches at the end and my shoulders too from the head pad that is too low digging in to my shoulder blades.

I've read speculation online about CrossCountry ordering IETs but I would prefer they took on more 221s, as they are doing and making up for the loss of slack in their fleet this way. It's a shame that they will be removing The Shop, as I find RSMs on CrossCountry often do static trolleys anyway. The Avanti refurbishment that these incoming units will have demonstrates how smart and modern they can look with a refresh of décor. I would guess that they will also be removing the tilt rigs to save on maintenance as they did with their other Super Voyagers.

 

[Trainman40083]

I can vouch for that. I did Sheffield-Guildford non-stop on a Class 221 in First Class and was so comfortable throughout the whole journey that I nearly fell asleep. If I go from Grantham or Doncaster to King's Cross on a Hitachi in First Class, my back aches at the end and my shoulders too from the head pad that is too low digging in to my shoulder blades.

I've read speculation online about CrossCountry ordering IETs but I would prefer they took on more 221s, as they are doing and making up for the loss of slack in their fleet this way. It's a shame that they will be removing The Shop, as I find RSMs on CrossCountry often do static trolleys anyway. The Avanti refurbishment that these incoming units will have demonstrates how smart and modern they can look with a refresh of décor. I would guess that they will also be removing the tilt rigs to save on maintenance as they did with their other Super Voyagers.

Add to that, there is nowhere on the Cross Country network that has the facility for tilt.

 

[Bald Rick]

Add to that, there is nowhere on the Cross Country network that has the facility for tilt.

Stone - Cheadle Hulme leans over and says hello.

 

[Discuss223]

I do believe a small stretch of track between Reading-Oxford is tilt permitted, as that was used as the testbed for tilting trains before Voyagers were introduced IIRC.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I do believe a small stretch of track between Reading-Oxford is tilt permitted, as that was used as the testbed for tilting trains before Voyagers were introduced IIRC.

Wolvercote Junction to Aynho Junction. Nothing has used the tilt capability since the early days of Voyagers, though - I’m not even sure it’s still operational.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I've been trying to unpick what Virgin Cross Country was thinking before Operation Princess, and had a blinding flash of the obvious: the tilt on XC 221s was only really useful on the north WCML routes. When those went to TPE, the tilt was disabled.

Without those bits of route, and without TASS available on other routes where tilt might theoretically offer advantages (are there any?), there's no benefit to reinstating tilt. Unless XC is told to withdraw stops so that it can speed up services, which would annoy a lot of people.

I'm sure this isn't news to anyone who was paying attention at the time, of course.

 

[Wolfie]

I've been trying to unpick what Virgin Cross Country was thinking before Operation Princess, and had a blinding flash of the obvious: the tilt on XC 221s was only really useful on the north WCML routes. When those went to TPE, the tilt was disabled.

Without those bits of route, and without TASS available on other routes where tilt might theoretically offer advantages (are there any?), there's no benefit to reinstating tilt. Unless XC is told to withdraw stops so that it can speed up services, which would annoy a lot of people.

I'm sure this isn't news to anyone who was paying attention at the time, of course.

Despite claims to the contrary there is logic on the railway (sometimes, lol)!

 

[JonathanH]

When those went to TPE, the tilt was disabled.

Voyagers with tilt continued to operate between Birmingham and Scotland on the West Coast, just not via Manchester.

It always seemed a bit odd that tilt was set up between Wolvercote and Aynho because not that many services were run with 221s under Operation Princess.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Voyagers with tilt continued to operate between Birmingham and Scotland on the West Coast, just not via Manchester.

And not under the XC banner, either.

It always seemed a bit odd that tilt was set up between Wolvercote and Aynho because not that many services were run with 221s under Operation Princess.

I can't help but wonder whether there was a hope/expectation that TASS would be rolled out more widely. Presumably if the East Coast Pendolinos had ever happened it would have featured on the bendy bits north of Darlington. Not sure where else might theoretically have benefited.

 

[Bald Rick]

It always seemed a bit odd that tilt was set up between Wolvercote and Aynho because not that many services were run with 221s under Operation Princess.

It was the test site.

 

[duffield]

Now we've got a dedicated thread for it I'll throw in my opinion:

XC should have a follow-on order of class 810 IETs, basically identical to the EMR order except fitted out with only about 25 1st class seats in the end coach rather than 47, spilling into the next coach.

• By the time the order goes through this class should be pretty much debugged and able to be delivered in a reasonably timely fashion.
• Existing design surely means cheaper
• Slightly shorter than voyagers so no (new) platform length problems and possibly some removed (5m shorter for 5 coaches)
• Bi-mode so they will be able to run Leeds to Edinburgh under the wires, also for the short distance which includes Birmingham New Street to reduce diesel pollution in the station. Able to take advantage of the (fairly likely) Filton Bank electrification and any other future wiring.
• Favoured over the other IET classes due to shorter length and greater diesel power.
• Considerable capacity increase over the Voyagers (similar to the uplift over the Meridians for EMR).
• Very similar seeming for non-driving train crew, dispatching etc.

Given the expense of developing the 810s as a semi-new IET design, it seems wasteful for them to be confined to one smallish fleet for EMR when they seem pretty well suited to XC.

Now, I'm not saying there is a good chance of such a plan being signed off by the treasury; but supposing they were minded to approve something like this, is this a reasonable plan? Are the two power modes on the 810s jointly suitable for the XC routes? Would they need bigger fuel tanks for diesel operation, for example, and if so would this mean a large or minor re-design? Any other suitability issues?

 

[Mogz]

Now we've got a dedicated thread for it I'll throw in my opinion:

XC should have a follow-on order of class 810 IETs, basically identical to the EMR order except fitted out with only about 25 1st class seats in the end coach rather than 47, spilling into the next coach.

• By the time the order goes through this class should be pretty much debugged and able to be delivered in a reasonably timely fashion.
• Existing design surely means cheaper
• Slightly shorter than voyagers so no (new) platform length problems and possibly some removed (5m shorter for 5 coaches)
• Bi-mode so they will be able to run Leeds to Edinburgh under the wires, also for the short distance which includes Birmingham New Street to reduce diesel pollution in the station. Able to take advantage of the (fairly likely) Filton Bank electrification and any other future wiring.
• Favoured over the other IET classes due to shorter length and greater diesel power.
• Considerable capacity increase over the Voyagers (similar to the uplift over the Meridians for EMR).
• Very similar seeming for non-driving train crew, dispatching etc.

Given the expense of developing the 810s as a semi-new IET design, it seems wasteful for them to be confined to one smallish fleet for EMR when they seem pretty well suited to XC.

Now, I'm not saying there is a good chance of such a plan being signed off by the treasury; but supposing they were minded to approve something like this, is this a reasonable plan? Are the two power modes on the 810s jointly suitable for the XC routes? Would they need bigger fuel tanks for diesel operation, for example, and if so would this mean a large or minor re-design? Any other suitability issues?

Another vote for 80x stock for XC from me as a daily sufferer travelling to many destinations on the route!

May I suggest 7-9 coaches per set, bi-mode with the new Avanti seating and layout?

I agree only one First Class end coach is necessary (it’s rare to ever see First Class full in a Voyager, even when Standard is packed to the gills).

 

[LittleRedTrain]

While I agree that XC needs new stock, I don't think that 80x is the best option unless it can be modified to allow level boarding (where infrastructure allows).

Part of the raison d'etre of XC is to provide direct services from point to point, instead of having to transfer between stations in London.

It is (or at least should be) the train that you put dear old granny on, with all her luggage, so she doesn't need to use the Tube.

Also given that the Tube is not going to be fully step free for many years, XC offers wheelchair users and those with limited mobility the ability to make journeys that would be otherwise difficult, or impossible!

It therefore should be top priority for a level boarding solution, rather than locking in another 20-30 years of inaccessible trains.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

While I agree that XC needs new stock, I don't think that 80x is the best option unless it can be modified to allow level boarding (where infrastructure allows).

Part of the raison d'etre of XC is to provide direct services from point to point, instead of having to transfer between stations in London.

It is (or at least should be) the train that you put dear old granny on, with all her luggage, so she doesn't need to use the Tube.

Also given that the Tube is not going to be fully step free for many years, XC offers wheelchair users and those with limited mobility the ability to make journeys that would be otherwise difficult, or impossible!

It therefore should be top priority for a level boarding solution, rather than locking in another 20-30 years of inaccessible trains.

While improving conditions for the mobility impaired is a laudable aim in terms of value for money Dear Old Granny, travelling infrequently and likely at the lowest possible fare, isn't going to generate that VFM as quickly as improving "commuter" networks whether around London or in the regions. As such don't hold your breath waiting for XC to receive more accessible trains. Top priority for level boarding, hardly likely.

 

[cslusarc]

I would rather see XC get cascaded Class 802s from GW, TP or HT after select parts of those operators' route networks are electrified.

 

[Tudor27]

What about Class 373s?

 

[The Planner]

What about Class 373s?

Has someone installed diesel engines?

 

[Indigo Soup]

I would rather see XC get cascaded Class 802s from GW, TP or HT after select parts of those operators' route networks are electrified.

If that happens, I suspect the 802s just get their diesel power packs removed and keep going as electric trains... and we can harness the flying pigs to power the rest of the network.

Has someone installed diesel engines?

Or significantly longer platforms at most stations?

 

[swt_passenger]

Now we've got a dedicated thread for it I'll throw in my opinion:

XC should have a follow-on order of class 810 IETs, basically identical to the EMR order except fitted out with only about 25 1st class seats in the end coach rather than 47, spilling into the next coach.

You’d think it had never been suggested before. There have been numerous previous threads about XC fleet early replacement - they come round every few months, and they’re all about 10 years too early.

I suggest somewhere in DfT there’s a plan to keep them in service for over 40 years…

 

[Tudor27]

What about Class 373s?

Has someone installed diesel engines?

My mistake. I assumed 373s had diesel propulsion for whatever reason.

I was thinking more about third rail compatibility when I made my comment.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Once the MML is electrified to Sheffield (and maybe to Doncaster/Leeds) I could see it getting new EMUs and its 810s becoming available for cascade to (eg) XC.
Until then the 220/221 fleet will have to suffice (another decade will take them to 35 years).
The 170s will be replaced by whatever bi-mode comes down the Sprinter replacement path.
The XC route through Birmingham is not fully wired in the 4-track area west of King's Norton (only the slow lines are wired).

 

[Bald Rick]

I don’t normally speculate or even participate on threads like this. However the obvious answer - to me at least - is:

HS2 new stock releases a quantity of Pendolinos in 2030s
Pendolinos to MML replacing 810s post electrification
810s to Cross Country to replace some of the Voyagers.

In reality I expect a new order will be necessary to get delivery in the early 2030# to avoid expensive retrofit of ETCS kit to the voyagers with only a limited life left.

 

[YorksLad12]

Pendolinos to MML replacing 810s post electrification

Wouldn't that result in a large reduction in seating compared to 2x810? The platform length limit still applies at StP.

 

[duffield]

Wouldn't that result in a large reduction in seating compared to 2x810? The platform length limit still applies at StP.

Also assumes total electrification of the MML is completed in the 2030's, which I would class as ...errr... "optimistic"!

 

[Bald Rick]

Wouldn't that result in a large reduction in seating compared to 2x810? The platform length limit still applies at StP.

Compared to 10x810, a little. 10x810 has 602 (508 standard, 94 first). 10x390 would have 563 (508 standard, 55 first, assuming the loss of coach H). So the only loss is in first class.

But, obviously, it is much higher capacity than 5x810, which is what approx half the services on EMR intercity services will be. So overall, much more capacity. And they tilt so can be quicker

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2024 ==

Also assumes total electrification of the MML is completed in the 2030's, which I would class as ...errr... "optimistic"!

It is a fair shout as to which gets energised first, OOC to Handsacre or Wigston to Sheffield. But there won’t be that much in it.

 

[Mogz]

While I agree that XC needs new stock, I don't think that 80x is the best option unless it can be modified to allow level boarding (where infrastructure allows).

Part of the raison d'etre of XC is to provide direct services from point to point, instead of having to transfer between stations in London.

It is (or at least should be) the train that you put dear old granny on, with all her luggage, so she doesn't need to use the Tube.

Also given that the Tube is not going to be fully step free for many years, XC offers wheelchair users and those with limited mobility the ability to make journeys that would be otherwise difficult, or impossible!

It therefore should be top priority for a level boarding solution, rather than locking in another 20-30 years of inaccessible trains.

Level boarding should be possible with further iterations of this stock. If Stadler can do it, why not?

Even if the ramp isn’t “level”, it should still be possible for an automatic ramp to be deployed without having to rely on station or train staff to do it manually.

Even if not for “Granny”, what about wheelchair using commuters who have to suffer the daily indignity of being dependent on others when there is an automated solution available that enables independence.

 

[anthony263]

What about crosscountry adding an order onto the batch of 897s CAF are going to build for LNER ?.

Could they be fitted to run on diesel as well as overhead and 3rd rail electrification?

 

[MrJeeves]

What about crosscountry adding an order onto the batch of 897s CAF are going to build for LNER ?.

Could they be fitted to run on diesel as well as overhead and 3rd rail electrification?

Aren't they going to be tri-modes (overhead, battery & diesel) anyway?

 

[Class15]

I don’t normally speculate or even participate on threads like this. However the obvious answer - to me at least - is:

HS2 new stock releases a quantity of Pendolinos in 2030s
Pendolinos to MML replacing 810s post electrification
810s to Cross Country to replace some of the Voyagers.

In reality I expect a new order will be necessary to get delivery in the early 2030# to avoid expensive retrofit of ETCS kit to the voyagers with only a limited life left.

Really interesting idea, but probably a bit too sensible to happen.

Also assumes total electrification of the MML is completed in the 2030's, which I would class as ...errr... "optimistic"!

To be fair all this can only happen when HS2 opens, which is just as potentially delayed as MML wiring (if not more).

 

[InTheEastMids]

In reality I expect a new order will be necessary to get delivery in the early 2030# to avoid expensive retrofit of ETCS kit to the voyagers with only a limited life left.

Makes sense that it'll be this sort of boring but prosaic reason that sees off XC's current fleet. Whilst post-2030, it's possible that component obsolescence, corrosion, emissions and failing interiors will all be problems, various TOCs have shown these are no barrier to continuing to the kind of Project Polyfilla approach to older train fleets that we've seen from various TOC in the last decade.

And they tilt so can be quicker

Will believe it when balises are being installed near Wellingborough.

Level boarding should be possible with further iterations of this stock. If Stadler can do it, why not?

Agree with this actually, the 810s should have been the last trains ordered without low floors (although can understand Lumo's logic for its follow-on order)
If we are removing the need to carry a 20l diesel engine, fuel tank, ancillaries and emissions control kit, then there really is no excuse for not having low floor.