XC Voyager Refurbishment

[DarloRich]

Two Words : Rail Advent. The tabloid of railway journalism, they know how to publish some utter dross!

i couldn't find another source to quite from!

 

[fgwrich]

It’s stated in the article that was quoted in the parallel thread in the speculation section. Doesn’t say much more than you’ve written:https://railuk.com/travel/crosscountry-plans-to-transform-customer-experience-by-may-2025/


Half the “Newcastle trains” are not being reinstated anyway, as discussed in the ECML timetable threads they’ll not run north of York. So they aren’t going to be there to extend. I think the increased TPE Newcastle to Edinburgh semifast and Northern stopper will presumably deal with Morpeth to Newcastle demand anyway.

That was the one thing that caught my eye too. Nothing shown on RTT yet than the continued removal of Brockenhurst. I really hope this doesn’t mean reverting back to the Covid style timetable where XC ran the bare bones down this way, including limiting stops between the south coast and Reading.

 

[dk1]

Will the Avanti sets have the tilt mechanism disabled? (Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, I've only skim-read the thread.)

Almost certainly. It’s not required and improves reliability.

 

[DarloRich]

When I did use XC I got off at Wakefield Westgate. is the future plan that XC trains will run non stop through that station? I assume they aren't going by a new route between Sheffield and Leeds!

 

[dk1]

When I did use XC I got off at Wakefield Westgate. is the future plan that XC trains will run non stop through that station? I assume they aren't going by a new route between Sheffield and Leeds!

Did I read it wrong? I thought it was only at peak times Westgate would be omitted.

 

[DarloRich]

Did I read it wrong? I thought it was only at peak times Westgate would be omitted.

you paid more attention than me - serves me right! - i thought i had read XC were removing Westgate totally.

 

[D6975]

Not to go too off topic but believe it's been said GC aren't interested in expanding the lease beyond the summer due to 221s being incompatible with the East Coast signalling upgrade

It's reported elsewhere that the short lease on the 221s is to allow the 180s to receive a good going over. Some of the mis-formed units have already been put back into correct formation. Once this is overhaul procedure is completed they won't need the 221s.

 

[RailWonderer]

My confidence in Arriva is admittedly low, but it *could* be good - the Pendolino was transformative.

Yes it is transformative, but the XC refurb I think will be more like Avanti's Voyager refurb where they look and feel cleaner with new seat covers and maybe new carpets but if the table vinyls aren't being updated and lighting improved it might still feel a bit dated. Brighter lighting as per the Pendolinos would feel more modern, but not dentist clinic bright.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Will the Avanti sets have the tilt mechanism disabled? (Sorry if this has already been asked and answered, I've only skim-read the thread.)

No word on it that I know of, but I don't think XC would have any use for tilt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it is transformative, but the XC refurb I think will be more like Avanti's Voyager refurb where they look and feel cleaner with new seat covers and maybe new carpets but if the table vinyls aren't being updated and lighting improved it might still feel a bit dated. Brighter lighting as per the Pendolinos would feel more modern, but not dentist clinic bright.

I'm almost certain it said the seats were being replaced, and lighting will be changed to LED (which usually means brighter and less "yellowish").

 

[RailWonderer]

I'm almost certain it said the seats were being replaced, and lighting will be changed to LED (which usually means brighter and less "yellowish").

Then you have the panelling, on the Pendolinos it was changed from grey with blue 'tardis' lights to white with white lighting in those ovals by the doors. If the XC ones got new panels they would look really smart but it's all dependant on how far the budget stretches.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm almost certain it said the seats were being replaced, and lighting will be changed to LED (which usually means brighter and less "yellowish").

It did use the term ‘new seats’ in the staff brief screenshot in post #65. Nothing explicit about lighting, but it might be in the linked video.

 

[Laserbeam31]

I'm almost certain it said the seats were being replaced, and lighting will be changed to LED (which usually means brighter and less "yellowish").

I'll be very interested to see what the LED lighting is like. Myself, I rather like the cosy "yellowish" fluorescent lighting in the Voyager interiors. A number of units I've been on which have had LEDs fitted early on (e.g. GWR 165s/166s/158s), often in the form of retrofit "LED fluorescent tubes" by the looks of it, have a very unattractive grey-blue style of interior lighting - which IMO looks a lot worse than the older "warmer" fluorescent lights. That said, the LED retrofitting that's been done more recently on the refurbished Southern Electrostars seems to be a very close match for the original fluorescent tubes. Similarly, the IETs, having been built with LEDs right from the start, also have a warm lighting colour temperature.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think there's a great deal more understanding about lighting color temperature nowadays not to mention an awful lot of moaning done not just on forums like this but in the more upper class newspapers that passengers paying stupidly high fairs to travel on some of these routes felt like they were in a dentist's chair or a fridge due to the light temperature

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there's a great deal more understanding about lighting color temperature nowadays not to mention an awful lot of moaning done not just on forums like this but in the more upper class newspapers that passengers paying stupidly high fairs to travel on some of these routes felt like they were in a dentist's chair or a fridge due to the light temperature

This hasn't stopped WMT fitting horrible dentist's-chair blue lighting to some 350s. Hopefully XC know better!

 

[tomoufc]

Apologies if it’s been covered elsewhere, but does anyone know if the former Avanti sets are having their shops removed? If so, will that be before they enter service?

Another thought I had: if 4+4 is going to become standard on certain routes is there an argument for using the refurb opportunity to covert one set to standard class only? We need all the capacity we can get!

 

[dk1]

Another thought I had: if 4+4 is going to become standard on certain routes is there an argument for using the refurb opportunity to covert one set to standard class only? We need all the capacity we can get!

That would make them far too difficult to diagram. Best to keep to the same for operational flexibility. It would be practically impossible to keep sets anything like permanently coupled.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Another thought I had: if 4+4 is going to become standard on certain routes is there an argument for using the refurb opportunity to covert one set to standard class only? We need all the capacity we can get!

I would have thought that would reduce the flexibility somewhat of the fleet. 4+4 will still be a good step up from (say) a 5 car unit in terms of standard class accommodation.

 

[tomoufc]

I would have thought that would reduce the flexibility somewhat of the fleet. 4+4 will still be a good step up from (say) a 5 car unit in terms of standard class accommodation.

That would be the downside yes

 

[dk1]

you paid more attention than me - serves me right! - i thought i had read XC were removing Westgate totally.

It actually appears to mainly affect Saturdays at Wakefield.

 

[DarloRich]

It actually appears to mainly affect Saturdays at Wakefield.

thanks! I assume this is to try and put local people on local trains ( Royston Vasey Rail!)

 

[stottyuk]

For me, I would have 4 x 10 car for the NE - SW route (maybe permanently form ex Avanti sets) - 8 units.

Up to 2 Stabled at Craigentinny

Up to 2 Stabled at Laira


Identify which diagrams are the busiest and allocate them to those (ideally where one would start/finish at Birmingham for rotation)


The other 4 would depend on maintenance etc

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Another thought I had: if 4+4 is going to become standard on certain routes is there an argument for using the refurb opportunity to covert one set to standard class only? We need all the capacity we can get!

Could always just make Coach G permanently declassified on double sets (like the rear First Class coaches on Thameslink 700s).
It's rare that it has a First Class Host anyway so anyone sitting there with a First ticket isn't likely to get the advertised catering.

 

[778]

it could be - but you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear! ( especially if you don't pay for silk in the first place)

Admittedly the Virgin/Avanti Voyagers are nicer than the XC version but they are still voyagers. I have been scarred by too many horrible XC journeys.

I can see why, but I don't mind quiet double sets on Avanti, and it would be nice if the refurb meant I could fit any seat as per the Pendolino one. They do have some things going for them, e.g. massive windows. Definitely used to prefer one to a Pendolino over Shap for scenery appreciation!

It is the lack of coaches that is the main problem. If they had 7 or 8 coaches they probably woud be a good train.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Could always just make Coach G permanently declassified on double sets (like the rear First Class coaches on Thameslink 700s).
It's rare that it has a First Class Host anyway so anyone sitting there with a First ticket isn't likely to get the advertised catering.

It would make more commercial sense to offer very competitively priced first class advances (in relation to the standard advance fare) on services that are booked to be a double set to increase the take-up.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Since CrossCountry are getting 12 Class 221 Super Voyager units but not 18, does it mean it will create more and new services? Grand Central has 2 units, while the 6 units will be stored away, unless Grand Union the new operator, which is coming soon will get them.

Only a guess but I believe XC will have 12 ex AWC 221s and Alstom will have the other 8. Obviously 2 of those will be the GCR pair returning off lease.

It seems to me that Alstom will lease some of their 8 to WSMR and maybe also to the GUT Stirling service, if it happens. It would make sense forTilt enabled 221s to operate on the currently still TASS enabled WCML

 

[tomoufc]

It is the lack of coaches that is the main problem. If they had 7 or 8 coaches they probably woud be a good train.

That’s right I think. I was on a double in evening peak out of New Street today and my carriage was only half full. Save for a couple of loud phone conversations fellow passengers it was a nice run.

 

[D365]

Not to go too off topic but believe it's been said GC aren't interested in expanding the lease beyond the summer due to 221s being incompatible with the East Coast signalling upgrade

Network Rail is funding a Class 180 ETCS fitment via Angel. Unless somebody knows otherwise, the fitment of Class 22x units is not funded by East Coast Digital Programme. Although I assume that a Class 22x installation design will be funded for CrossCountry as part of "Trilink" which is WCML ETCS.

 

[Trainman40083]

Some diagrams can't be doubled either such as the Reading-Newcastle due to length of the bays at Newcastle.

Some Voyagers into Reading also used to use the bays. But back to an every 30 minutes service might be better than a double unit hourly.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That would be an option if drivers are available and scheduling allows time for attatching/detatching at York. Considering the Reading/Newcastle always seems of a lower priority I wonder if there are actually any plans to double those up anyway. Seems rather an operational headache.

Perhaps something that waits until further stock is transferred.

Half the “Newcastle trains” are not being reinstated anyway, as discussed in the ECML timetable threads they’ll not run north of York. So they aren’t going to be there to extend. I think the increased TPE Newcastle to Edinburgh semifast and Northern stopper will presumably deal with Morpeth to Newcastle demand anyway.

So people will have to rely on TPE? Good luck to them...