XC Voyager Refurbishment

[Trainman40083]

Network Rail is funding a Class 180 ETCS fitment via Angel. Unless somebody knows otherwise, the fitment of Class 22x units is funded by the East Coast Digital Programme. Although I assume that a Class 22x installation design will be funded for CrossCountry as part of "Trilink" which is WCML ETCS.

Does the 22x fleet need to meet the digital requirement? I thought that was South of Newark.. Or is going further North?

 

[YorksLad12]

Only a guess but I believe XC will have 12 ex AWC 221s and Alstom will have the other 8. Obviously 2 of those will be the GCR pair returning off lease.

The thought occurs: if the remaining ex-Avanti 221s are 5 cars, could they be swapped with the same number of XC's 4-car sets?

 

[D365]

Does the 22x fleet need to meet the digital requirement? I thought that was South of Newark.. Or is going further North?

Oops - meant to say "not funded".

 

[Trainman40083]

Oops - meant to say "not funded".

I guess, though, 222s might end up working for Hull Trains if the Sheffield Kings Cross gets access.

The thought occurs: if the remaining ex-Avanti 221s are 5 cars, could they be swapped with the same number of XC's 4-car sets?

What a great idea. A 30% increase in standard class seats.

 

[D365]

I guess, though, 222s might end up working for Hull Trains if the Sheffield Kings Cross gets access.

Alas, from my experience of the "digitisation" programme, it's a pain in the proverbial to get additional units of an existing class added to the vehicle list. Never mind an entirely 'new' class...

Anyway - that's for another thread.

 

[Kite159]

Some Voyagers into Reading also used to use the bays. But back to an every 30 minutes service might be better than a double unit hourly.

Especially for the busy section between Oxford & Banbury where the only alternative is a rough 2 hourly GWR stopper. Use of platform 3 at Reading by XC does seem to be quite rare these days

(As for the timetable changes, any ideas when they might start appearing for the likes of Basingstoke getting the axe).

I would imagine when the Avanti sets start service with XC, they will swap the 'unreserved' coach round from being coach F to coach D, unless XC are planning to try and keep the Avanti 221s onto separate services to avoid the hassle of someone rocking up with a seat in coach D which exists on a XC voyager but doesn't exist on an Avanti voyager [due to the layout].

 

[dk1]

I would imagine when the Avanti sets start service with XC, they will swap the 'unreserved' coach round from being coach F to coach D, unless XC are planning to try and keep the Avanti 221s onto separate services to avoid the hassle of someone rocking up with a seat in coach D which exists on a XC voyager but doesn't exist on an Avanti voyager [due to the layout].

It would have to be standardised. Anything else never works & continuously causes confusion as impossible to keep them to a diagram and would be no point in adding such unnecessary complications.

 

[Kite159]

It would have to be standardised. Anything else never works & continuously causes confusion as impossible to keep them to a diagram and would be no point in adding such unnecessary complications.

Agreed, simply swapping coach F to coach D for being the mostly unreserved coach would probably be the better idea. Just to pretend the hassle of "I had seat DXX reserved but XX doesn't exist so had to stand all the way as no other seats were available" stories

Although that being said is the seat layout in the other coaches the same between a XC voyager & Avanti voyager?

 

[dk1]

Although that being said is the seat layout in the other coaches the same between a XC voyager & Avanti voyager?

Good point.

 

[YorksLad12]

I would imagine when the Avanti sets start service with XC, they will swap the 'unreserved' coach round from being coach F to coach D, unless XC are planning to try and keep the Avanti 221s onto separate services to avoid the hassle of someone rocking up with a seat in coach D which exists on a XC voyager but doesn't exist on an Avanti voyager [due to the layout].

Is it not all electronic? Otherwise, how would the rear set know it was H-L? Keeping it as it is has several advantages, not least that on a five-car set there's unreserved seating almost at either end, which helps spread the load a bit.

Although that being said is the seat layout in the other coaches the same between a XC voyager & Avanti voyager?

I'd hope that if they were all being refurbished they would be standardised to the same layout as well. The ex-Avanti sets could be made similar to the XC layout (sadly!) before entering service.

 

[AJDesiro]

Is it not all electronic? Otherwise, how would the rear set know it was H-L? Keeping it as it is has several advantages, not least that on a five-car set there's unreserved seating almost at either end, which helps spread the load a bit.


I'd hope that if they were all being refurbished they would be standardised to the same layout as well. The ex-Avanti sets could be made similar to the XC layout (sadly!) before entering service.

It’s been stated that the ex-Avanti sets will be the last for refurbishment. I’d imagine these units would also be reformed after refurbishment so that they match the carriage formation of the XC sets too.

The easiest solution will be to make any seats which differ between the XC/Avanti sets in the interim unreservable, a bit like what Avanti do on the pendolinos, where the 9 cars have some unreservable seats which are occupied by a luggage rack on the 11 cars.

 

[virgintrain1]

Agreed, simply swapping coach F to coach D for being the mostly unreserved coach would probably be the better idea. Just to pretend the hassle of "I had seat DXX reserved but XX doesn't exist so had to stand all the way as no other seats were available" stories

Although that being said is the seat layout in the other coaches the same between a XC voyager & Avanti voyager?

Remember Avanti Coach D was moved next to first class. So conveniently it will likely be labeled coach B which is also unreserved across the fleet.

 

[Dan G]

The 12 extra units should be enough for either 5 cars or 4+4 cars on all diagrams.

XC can make more diagrams double voyagers by attaching an extra unit around the XC core. E.g. on the Manchester - Bournemouth runs detaching/attaching the front unit at Reading where there is already a reversal. XC already try to attach/detach units on route but they need sufficient staff to allow it.

That would be excellent

 

[coppercapped]

That would be excellent

And how do you ensure that the uncoupled and parked unit does not block a platform at Reading and upset the other trains using the station?

 

[Trainman40083]

And how do you ensure that the uncoupled and parked unit does not block a platform at Reading and upset the other trains using the station?

Well it sure takes up a platform for a period of time. Alternative is taking a 8 / 10 car train through to Southampton/Bournemouth. Hang on, the platform at Southampton gets used for another train too. Off to the sidings then. Bournemouth. Can you park up a 8/10 car? Can you at York given other services? I guess it all has to be considered

 

[JonathanH]

And how do you ensure that the uncoupled and parked unit does not block a platform at Reading and upset the other trains using the station?

Send it off to Kennet Bridge Loop?

 

[Dan G]

I was referring to the prospect of either 5 cars or 4+4 cars on all diagrams rather than any splitting/joining at Reading.

 

[Masboroughlad]

Exterior repaint = new look/ livery or just fresh paint?

 

[Bringback309s]

As part of the refurb will the toilet smell be dealt with?

 

[GoneSouth]

As part of the refurb will the toilet smell be dealt with?

Is there really still a problem with toilet smells? Can’t say I’ve noticed it myself, apart from the fact that when you’re in there you can tell it’s done a thousand miles since a clean !

Exterior repaint = new look/ livery or just fresh paint?

There was a video floating around somewhere with a concept that had lots of charcoal, pink and turquoise. It looked horrendous but it was just the interior.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there really still a problem with toilet smells? Can’t say I’ve noticed it myself, apart from the fact that when you’re in there you can tell it’s done a thousand miles since a clean !

I thought that was fixed a while back by relocating the aircon intake away from the toilet vents, which was what was causing it. I haven't noticed it on Avanti units of late, I can't speak for XC as I don't use them if there is any sort of alternative so haven't in years.

 

[Trainman40083]

Is there really still a problem with toilet smells? Can’t say I’ve noticed it myself, apart from the fact that when you’re in there you can tell it’s done a thousand miles since a clean !


There was a video floating around somewhere with a concept that had lots of charcoal, pink and turquoise. It looked horrendous but it was just the interior.

XC won't be pink and turquoise

 

[AirRail]

Whilst i personally dont think theres anything wrong with the current livery and branding, I have heard we're expected to know more about a brand refresh around June this year. I think the current livery and branding is just as relevant now as it first was. Its one of those thats managed to remain pretty timeless over the years.

The opposite can be said for the interiors of course. Tired and tatty is being polite, but when you do manage to get on a service where you can get a seat, the trains are actually comfortable. A sentiment the majority on here i know agrees with too.

Lets just hope that concept interior image we were teased with, is completely wrong and that colour pallette is never seen again...

 

[CptCharlee]

Crosscountry really does need a whole complete refresh its brand it's tired, dated and a refresh will bring with it new hope that a new brand longer trains will seem new and actual change for many customers. Psychologically (customer wise) it makes sense to have a refresh.

 

[GoneSouth]

XC won't be pink and turquoise

That’s a relief if true, but it was a XC member of staff I think who presented it.

 

[Trainman40083]

That’s a relief if true, but it was a XC member of staff I think who presented it.

My info also came from a XC manager

 

[Snow1964]

I'm almost certain it said the seats were being replaced, and lighting will be changed to LED (which usually means brighter and less "yellowish").

Not that LED bulbs will make much difference to total energy consumed on a train that is powered by diesel, and has friction brakes and no energy recovery, rather than regenerative braking.

The units are now 22-23 years old so will be interesting to see how heavily they get refurbished as probably only got 12-15 years life planned (although they might linger on beyond expected replacement date, like a 455).

 

[Energy]

and has friction brakes and no energy recovery, rather than regenerative braking.

Technically they do have rheostatic breaking, but all the energy goes straight into resistors and is dispersed as heat.

 

[brad465]

If these Voyagers are going into service with shops still in place while waiting for their turn in the refurb queue, does this mean the shops present will be manned until removed, or will they just sit there as a waste of space, assuming the plan is to get rid of them eventually?

 

[MCR247]

If these Voyagers are going into service with shops still in place while waiting for their turn in the refurb queue, does this mean the shops present will be manned until removed, or will they just sit there as a waste of space, assuming the plan is to get rid of them eventually?

I don’t think there will be an official answer on this yet as they might not have even got that far in terms of planning just yet.

It wouldn’t surprise me if they were just locked out of use for consistency. Unless they were to give specific diagrams to the 221s with shops, the member of catering staff would still turn up to the train with a trolley, so probably easiest just to serve from the trolley. I don’t think the layout of the ‘shop area’ would allow for the member of staff to just take the trolley in and serve from there, as can be done on the 222s buffet area.

And just in case we’re going to go down the route of “well whilst the shops there might as well use it or it’d just a waste of space,” I’d argue that the shop area is the same waste of space whether it is being used or not.