Yet more weird Grand Central behaviour

[BRX]

Part of it to be fair is so they can control which trains are open for sale in a situation where timetable changes and disruption are the norm.

I don't quite understand what this means. Do different rules apply when there's disruption - they are allowed to make certain trains out of bounds?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't quite understand what this means. Do different rules apply when there's disruption - they are allowed to make certain trains out of bounds?

If reservations are set to compulsory, a TOC can prevent people buying itineraries for a given train by not releasing a quota on it, thus preventing false expectations of the train running if the TOC aren't sure it will. Most notably Avanti did this recently when they were considering (and in the event actually did) lopping out the third Manchester for a bit.

This is (when compared to allowing a train to be sold and then cancelling it as planned) decent customer service. Unfortunately the reservations system doesn't (I think) have another way of achieving this, nor does it have the capability to show "not open for booking yet" with some sort of note of why rather than just showing "sold out" when in fact no tickets were ever made available.

 

[Haywain]

Do different rules apply when there's disruption - they are allowed to make certain trains out of bounds?

It's a reference to engineering works rather than routine day-to-day disruption. The idea is that trains cannot be booked until such time as the timetables during weekend engineering works have been finalised, which is usually somewhat later than for 'normal' weekdays.

 

[BRX]

If reservations are set to compulsory, a TOC can prevent people buying itineraries for a given train by not releasing a quota on it, thus preventing false expectations of the train running if the TOC aren't sure it will. Most notably Avanti did this recently when they were considering (and in the event actually did) lopping out the third Manchester for a bit.

This is (when compared to allowing a train to be sold and then cancelling it as planned) decent customer service. Unfortunately the reservations system doesn't (I think) have another way of achieving this, nor does it have the capability to show "not open for booking yet" with some sort of note of why rather than just showing "sold out" when in fact no tickets were ever made available.

I see. I can see the argument for doing this on specific days/services when there's uncertainty about what can run, but that doesn't justify applying it to all trains surely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see. I can see the argument for doing this on specific days/services when there's uncertainty about what can run, but that doesn't justify applying it to all trains surely.

If you apply it to all trains in the timetable, you can then then open and close them for booking at will.

I'm fairly sure this is why Avanti do it, as they're not managing it in the way LNER are with their "seat sure" thing and ease of getting (and cancelling) reservations.

 

[OscarH]

It's a reference to engineering works rather than routine day-to-day disruption. The idea is that trains cannot be booked until such time as the timetables during weekend engineering works have been finalised, which is usually somewhat later than for 'normal' weekdays.

Given this bodge wasn't deemed necessary in the past, it does seem poor to me that it's been around for several years and we have managed to neither return to how things were before, nor come up with a less terrible solution if things have to stay this way

 

[Adam Williams]

If only there was a system that could notify customers about changes to timetables after they book, so we didn't have to be so heavy-handed

Wouldn't that be something

 

[Bletchleyite]

If only there was a system that could notify customers about changes to timetables after they book, so we didn't have to be so heavy-handed

Wouldn't that be something

I don't see an issue with the idea of a feature that blocks specific trains from sale so people don't get false expectations, it should just be done via a different mechanism than fake compulsory reservations that makes it clear what is going on. It's just misleading.

LNER to be fair rarely shows a train as "sold out" as they sell a load of counted places in addition to the actual reservations, but "reservations compulsory" is still misleading as they aren't, and could be misleading the other way if someone shows up for the Caledonian Sleeper and is turned away unexpectedly because they actually are compulsory for that.

The easiest way to do it would probably be to repurpose the hardly-used "black R" Reservations Recommended flag, rename it to "SeatSure*" with a note "tickets will only be sold for this train with a reservation; flexible tickets are valid on this train but a reservation is strongly recommended" and apply that to this sort of situation. But it would be better if NRS allowed individual trains to be opened and closed for booking separately from this - it is a useful feature, it's just that implementing it this way is an almighty bodge with lots of disadvantages.

* This is as I'm sure you know already (but for the benefit of others) LNER's name for the policy and isn't a bad way of explaining it.

 

[Adam Williams]

I don't see an issue with the idea of a feature that blocks specific trains from sale

I do, when you can buy tickets for the same train from a TVM or ticket office.

"reservations compulsory" is still misleading as they aren't, and could be misleading the other way if someone shows up for the Caledonian Sleeper and is turned away unexpectedly because they actually are compulsory for that

Agreed. A number of operators have systematically abused this flag in the timetable data.

tickets will only be sold for this train with a reservation

Why? Give the customer an explanation that it might be busy or may not even run and let them make the decision as to whether to buy a flexible walk-up ticket which is perfectly valid on the train or not. Believe it or not, passengers are overwhelmingly adults who can make decisions for themselves.

 

[Haywain]

Given this bodge wasn't deemed necessary in the past, it does seem poor to me that it's been around for several years and we have managed to neither return to how things were before, nor come up with a less terrible solution if things have to stay this way

You're assuming that there's a will to return to a previous system. There isn't. Some people in LNER wanted to do this years before they were able to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? Give the customer an explanation that it might be busy or may not even run and let them make the decision as to whether to buy a flexible walk-up ticket which is perfectly valid on the train or not.

That's also an option.

I would say it was in some ways more of a problem how it was before, where the railway would be advertising trains it knew full well it wasn't going to run.

You're assuming that there's a will to return to a previous system. There isn't. Some people in LNER wanted to do this years before they were able to.

I'm not sure Avanti have a will to be doing anything, they don't seem competent enough to be doing anything other than constant firefighting, and notably GWR (also FirstGroup) have now ceased this practice and returned to the "old normal", as have XC and TPE other than on strike days. And Greater Anglia and TfW have gone the other way and abolished reservations entirely on long distance services.

I think there are people in LNER who want to make it like a standalone airline in fares terms, but that's a bit different to this practice, because reservations aren't actually compulsory.

 

[OscarH]

You're assuming that there's a will to return to a previous system. There isn't. Some people in LNER wanted to do this years before they were able to.

Indeed... I gather there are some interesting views at some TOCs. But that's why I included the second option - if they won't return to the way it was, then make the new way a properly supported process where the customer gets a busyness or subject to change warning rather than the sold out bodge.

Unfortunately there's no incentive for LNER, Network Rail or RDG to deliver those changes, because the customer experience doesn't really affect them (or LNER could fix it on their site like the extended booking horizon, and leave everyone else screwed, great for them), so here we are stuck.

 

[Hadders]

Unfortunately there are people who think trains should operate in the same way as airlines with everything being compulsory reservations. In the event of disruption, you’d be stranded in you couldn’t obtain a reservation on a later train.

I even had a survey from LNER a few months ago asking my views on ‘checking in’ for my train before departure. It was clear that LNER were/might still be considering this. I made my views quite clear. It would be totally impractical and hopefully will never see the light of day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I even had a survey from LNER a few months ago asking my views on ‘checking in’ for my train before departure

What an utterly, utterly stupid idea. Who do they think they are, SNCF?

(Optional checked baggage may not be a bad idea and has been done before, but mandatory check in, seriously?)

 

[Hadders]

What an utterly, utterly stupid idea. Who do they think they are, SNCF?

(Optional checked baggage may not be a bad idea and has been done before, but mandatory check in, seriously?)

It wasn’t about baggage. There were questions on how early you’d be prepared to arrive etc.

I gave them both barrels in my responses and hopefully so did others.

While it’s amusing to hear stories like this the serious side is it shows the sort of thing some people in train companies like LNER want to do. It’s as though the people that think of these ideas never travel by train….

 

[Bletchleyite]

It wasn’t about baggage. There were questions on how early you’d be prepared to arrive etc.

I gave them both barrels in my responses and hopefully so did others.

While it’s amusing to hear stories like this the serious side is it shows the sort of thing some people in train companies like LNER want to do. It’s as though the people that think of these ideas never travel by train….

How bizarre.

I've chucked in a new thread to discuss this bizarre proposal, as while discussion of LNER was a bit tangential it was at least still discussing what GC were doing as well:

LNER were seriously proposing airline style check-in for rail travel?!

It wasn’t about baggage. There were questions on how early you’d be prepared to arrive etc. I gave them both barrels in my responses and hopefully so did others. While it’s amusing to hear stories like this the serious side is it shows the sort of thing some people in train companies like LNER...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Wallsendmag]

Part of it to be fair is so they can control which trains are open for sale in a situation where timetable changes and disruption are the norm. It isn't *purely* a conspiracy.

It would be much better if NRS had a facility for them to do this without this silly and misleading workaround.

Oh if only NRS was still the reservationsystem

 

[OscarH]

Oh if only NRS was still the reservationsystem

I hear everyone's favourite east coast TOC is one of the better ones for remembering to press the magic button in its replacement without which things explode when you make changes to a service

 

[Tetchytyke]

Good workaround but not really an ideal solution; LNER are misleading people and some people are easier to mislead than others.

Are LNER still doing that thing where there are no seats left for flexible walk-up tickets but here, there’s a seat left if you buy an advance instead. They were doing that even back in Virgin/Stagecoach days.

 

[Haywain]

Are LNER still doing that thing where there are no seats left for flexible walk-up tickets but here, there’s a seat left if you buy an advance instead. They were doing that even back in Virgin/Stagecoach days.

You'll have found you couldn't buy that advance that was left, as it was utilising a disabled or wheelchair space that was actually not bookable through normal retail channels. I thought that problem had been resolved with the move from NRS to RARS2, but maybe not.

 

[OscarH]

You'll have found you couldn't buy that advance that was left, as it was utilising a disabled or wheelchair space that was actually not bookable through normal retail channels. I thought that problem had been resolved with the move from NRS to RARS2, but maybe not.

It no longer consistently happens, but there are now different and more sporadic issues where you end up with availability but can't book it

 

[Wallsendmag]

It no longer consistently happens, but there are now different and more sporadic issues where you end up with availability but can't book it

Found out something today that was working the way I thought it may be which isn't a good thing

 

[CompactDstrxion]

If someone had the spare cash and really wanted to see LNER put an end to marking compulsory reservations they could block any London-Leeds sales by buying up a load of Wakefield-Leeds returns.
Wakefield to Leeds 1x adult 4x child with F&F railcard is £8.75 off peak return or £10.55 anytime and that will get you 10 seat reservations included

 

[Haywain]

If someone had the spare cash and really wanted to see LNER put an end to marking compulsory reservations they could block any London-Leeds sales by buying up a load of Wakefield-Leeds returns.
Wakefield to Leeds 1x adult 4x child with F&F railcard is £8.75 off peak return or £10.55 anytime and that will get you 10 seat reservations included

Can you explain how you think that would stop compulsory reservations being applied? Or just how many tickets you think you would need to buy to make this an effective strategy?

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Can you explain how you think that would stop compulsory reservations being applied? Or just how many tickets you think you would need to buy to make this an effective strategy?

Because if the seats are all being sold at ~£1 each and passengers are then told they can't buy London-Leeds or vice versa on those trains then it's going to hurt LNER's revenue quite a lot I'd imagine.
Is there someone out there with sufficient spare cash and sufficient distaste for the practice to do it - probably not but you never know.
It might not even take any actual spend, just a declaration of intent to DfT who carry the revenue risk.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might not even take any actual spend, just a declaration of intent to DfT who carry the revenue risk.

I suspect that would be considered blackmail and thus a criminal offence, and probably also contrary to the Computer Misuse Act, as it's effectively a Distributed Denial of Service attack, albeit in a very unusual form.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I suspect that would be considered blackmail and thus a criminal offence, and probably also contrary to the Computer Misuse Act, as it's effectively a Distributed Denial of Service attack, albeit in a very unusual form.

Doubt it could be prosecuted as blackmail as the declaration would aim to cease the inaccurate use of compulsory reservation flagging, rather than aiming to gain money or property for one's self or cause loss of money or property for the recipient.

Also doubt it could be prosecuted as 'impairing operation of a computer' etc because the booking system would still be operating as designed.

Anyway if we want to discuss further should probably make a separate thread otherwise I'm happy to leave it as a wild hypothetical!

 

[miklcct]

If someone had the spare cash and really wanted to see LNER put an end to marking compulsory reservations they could block any London-Leeds sales by buying up a load of Wakefield-Leeds returns.
Wakefield to Leeds 1x adult 4x child with F&F railcard is £8.75 off peak return or £10.55 anytime and that will get you 10 seat reservations included

But it won't block out the sale of London - Wakefield

 

[Deerfold]

But it won't block out the sale of London - Wakefield

It won't, but a significant part of the market on that route is Leeds - London with Leeds to other destinations south of Wakefield in the top 20.

 

[Haywain]

Because if the seats are all being sold at ~£1 each and passengers are then told they can't buy London-Leeds or vice versa on those trains then it's going to hurt LNER's revenue quite a lot I'd imagine.
Is there someone out there with sufficient spare cash and sufficient distaste for the practice to do it - probably not but you never know.
It might not even take any actual spend, just a declaration of intent to DfT who carry the revenue risk.

Perhsps you could calculate how much money would be required to make this an effective strategy?