York to Geneva journey

[yorkie]

I'd like to visit a forum member in Geneva and I'd really like to go by train, departing on a Thursday and coming back on a Sunday

However the cost appears to be prohibitive.

I'm fortunate enough to get the LNER price at a very cheap rate to London, but there appears to be no through fare from London to Geneva ; Eurostar want £60 each way just to get to Paris. The fare from Paris to Geneva is reasonable but when you add it all up, you're talking £220ish return.

Is there a way to get the Eurostar fare down? The £29 fares are at times that don't work for a York to Geneva journey, even if I was to stop off overnight in London. Eurostar Snap isn't really a viable option for such a journey either. I get the impression Eurostar would rather people making longer journeys went by plane as we are considered an inconvenience to their running of a premium service for people just travelling on their core route and no further.

A few years ago LU staff were able to get good value Eurostar fares and a forum member was able to get us a discount but I don't think that is possible any more.

If I do go by train, I'd consider paying a bit more to go in 1st on the TGV. Does anyone know if I would be able to choose my seat from a seating plan (ideally showing window alignment); is there a retailer who provides this functionality?

And finally, any recommendations for things to see in Geneva or scenic/interesting lines that are particularly recommended travel on in that area? I have a few things in mind already but I am happy to hear suggestions. Thanks

 

[ashkeba]

There's a big hosepipe shooting up in the air in the puddle in front of Geneva.

Seriously: the lakefront walk is the best thing I remember of the city. Went years ago, crossing the border at the two men at a table at the century-old "temporary" Eaux Vives. Not been back. Hope you find more!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

easyJet do it from Manchester for around £50 each way, twice a day. No doubt other airports/operators are possible.
More expensive in the ski season.
Free rail travel from the airport to the city (10 mins).

The short commuter ferries across the lake are good value and scenic. Mont Blanc is visible on a decent day.
The new Leman Express links Geneva Cornavin with the French region surrounding the city (eg as far as Annecy or St Gervais), on the newly extended line via Eaux Vives to Annemasse.
Plenty of day rail trips possible within Switzerland, I enjoyed a couple of hours in Bern on my last trip.
Shop prices in Geneva are very high, even for CH.

 

[BRX]

The only way I've found to get Eurostar fares down is to buy them from DB - but that doesn't help you if you want to go via Paris.

I have travelled to Switzerland every year or two and often opt for the route via Germany (Brussels-Koln-Basel) rather than via France, because the DB Sparpreis, for example London to Cologne or even Frankfurt, is sometimes less than Eurostar charge from London to Brussels! You can do one DB ticket London-Germany then another Germany-Swiss destination.

For my destination in Switzerland this adds a bit of travel time compared to the French route but not too much - for Geneva though, would obviously be rather slower.

Sometimes it's worth checking Eurostar fares to Lille instead of Paris (better to change at Lille anyway if you get a good connection).

Check also the Eurostars that go direct to Lyon and the S of France.

 

[BRX]

I get the impression Eurostar would rather people making longer journeys went by plane as we are considered an inconvenience to their running of a premium service for people just travelling on their core route and no further.

Yup!

I was disappointed when DB abandoned their plans for through-tunnel trains. Really Eurostar could do with some proper competition.

And of course in general the whole of Europe's rail network needs to get its act together in terms of inter-company co-operation if it's going to provide an alternative to air. What's frustrating is that there are many routes where it can already compete OK on time - and even price if you know where to look, and fiddle around with options enough - but it's still way too complicated to capture most of the market.

 

[matt]

The only way I've found to get Eurostar fares down is to buy them from DB - but that doesn't help you if you want to go via Paris.

I have travelled to Switzerland every year or two and often opt for the route via Germany (Brussels-Koln-Basel) rather than via France, because the DB Sparpreis, for example London to Cologne or even Frankfurt, is sometimes less than Eurostar charge from London to Brussels! You can do one DB ticket London-Germany then another Germany-Swiss destination.

For my destination in Switzerland this adds a bit of travel time compared to the French route but not too much - for Geneva though, would obviously be rather slower.

Sometimes it's worth checking Eurostar fares to Lille instead of Paris (better to change at Lille anyway if you get a good connection).

Check also the Eurostars that go direct to Lyon and the S of France.

You can no longer get London to Germany tickets with DB

 

[yorkie]

You can no longer get London to Germany tickets with DB

Yes that was my finding too. also

I also looked at Lille.

Eurostar let me search for York to Lyon and the absolute cheapest fare came to about £260.

I can do the whole journey from York to Lille for £95 by using TPE and EasyJet.

I would be OK with paying around twice that price, say £180 to travel entirely by train.

But £260 to only get part way?!

Eurostar appear to be making it absolutely clear they are not interested in my custom.

Anyone here work for them?

 

[BRX]

You can no longer get London to Germany tickets with DB

I travelled on one just last week!

When has this happened?

 

[BRX]

I can do the whole journey from York to Lille for £95 by using TPE and EasyJet.

Do you mean Lille, or Geneva?

 

[Starmill]

Foe travelers who are conscious of the carbon cost of their journey (I admit most people aren't, but we all ought to be!), it strikes me that an option that offers even moderate value for money is never available for this journey.

'Climate Emergency' and all that? It might make a good one to write to one's MP with, including a summary of the approximate prices and times, along with approximate atmospheric carbon emissions figures. £220 - 250 round trip seems normal for this journey, and I wouldn't pay that much.

 

[Alfonso]

You say there are £29 fares but at the wrong times even splitting in London. What about a split somewhere else, like Paris? Paris is full of cheap basic hotels. Eurostar is generally expensive on a Sunday...all this people coming back from long weekends (in Geneva?). You could also just wait a while. Normally bad advice but Coronavirus is slashing travel and hotel bookings at the moment. Once you're there, I'd look at the three in seven day regional.pass and visit all the pretty narrow gauge branch lines up into the mountains from Aigle, Bex etc.

 

[Starmill]

You say there are £29 fares but at the wrong times even splitting in London. What about a split somewhere else, like Paris? Paris is full of cheap basic hotels. Eurostar is generally expensive on a Sunday...all this people coming back from long weekends (in Geneva?). You could also just wait a while. Normally bad advice but Coronavirus is slashing travel and hotel bookings at the moment. Once you're there, I'd look at the three in seven day regional.pass and visit all the pretty narrow gauge branch lines up into the mountains from Aigle, Bex etc.

The OP has expressed a preference to depart Thursday and return home Sunday. Does that not suggest to you that they might not be working on Monday morning? The OP tells us they're going to see their friend who lives on Geneva. Lovely as I'm certain Bex is, I doubt it's practical or realistic to spend time there with this aim in mind...

Given the choice between travelling on Thursday and Sunday, giving Friday and Saturday away, and not going at all, I think it's clear what the OP would like to do!

 

[Starmill]

I travelled on one just last week!

When has this happened?

The last date for which the tickets are available is 14th March 2020. They're discontinued after then.

 

[Mag_seven]

Rail really needs to up its game if we are to persuade more travellers to take the train from the UK to Europe rather than the plane. That means simpler booking (looks like, for example, DB is making it more difficult from March), faster journey times (more high speed lines) and of course lower fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rail really needs to up its game if we are to persuade more travellers to take the train from the UK to Europe rather than the plane. That means simpler booking (looks like, for example, DB is making it more difficult from March), faster journey times (more high speed lines) and of course lower fares.

Eurostar, not DB, is making it more difficult.

 

[Mag_seven]

Eurostar, not DB, is making it more difficult.

Well whoever!

 

[Starmill]

easyJet do it from Manchester for around £50 each way, twice a day. No doubt other airports/operators are possible.

A round-trip flight from Manchester to Geneva would release appropriately 310kg of atmospheric carbon equivalent, plus a train journey on a diesel train.

1700 miles round-trip by electrically-powered high speed rail would be unlikely to release more than about 25kg. It might actually be slightly less than that.

Even if you're really optimistic about the efficiency of your aircraft and use the most carbon-efficient means to reach the airport, and you're pessimistic about the impact of high speed rail on the basis of it using too much energy, or having a lower load factor than EasyJet manage, you're looking at ten times more carbon equivalent here from flying.

I'm happy for a genuine carbon expert to check my figures. Note that I've not taken account here of the far, far greater air pollution caused by aircraft vs rail vehicles, the somewhat greater noise pollution, or the fact that the carbon emissions for rail are all concentrated in one place at a power station, and thus easier to capture. Rail operators who commit to the purchase of more expensive renewable energy are well on the way to ultra-low emissions.

 

[Alfonso]

The OP has expressed a preference to depart Thursday and return home Sunday. Does that not suggest to you that they might not be working on Monday morning? The OP tells us they're going to see their friend who lives on Geneva. Lovely as I'm certain Bex is, I doubt it's practical or realistic to spend time there with this aim in mind...

Given the choice between travelling on Thursday and Sunday, giving Friday and Saturday away, and not going at all, I think it's clear what the OP would like to do!

I understand that what Yorkie (and many of us) want is a cheap Eurostar ticket at a time we actually want to travel. Unfortunately that's not available. As to Bex, I don't know exactly what Yorkie will or won't be doing with or without his friend, but the thought of taking a train along the north shore of Lake Geneva for an hour or so then another one up into the mountains doesn't seem like an entirely unreasonable suggestion, unless it was on a repurposed 442 pulled by a Krokodil.

 

[Starmill]

I understand that what Yorkie (and many of us) want is a cheap Eurostar ticket at a time we actually want to travel. Unfortunately that's not available. As to Bex, I don't know exactly what Yorkie will or won't be doing with or without his friend, but the thought of taking a train along the north shore of Lake Geneva for an hour or so then another one up into the mountains doesn't seem like an entirely unreasonable suggestion, unless it was on a repurposed 442 pulled by a Krokodil.

True: perhaps it does and perhaps it doesn't, but framing a 2 day visit as if someone were going to spend 7 days in order to get cheaper rail fares and thereby use more travel is a trap that a huge number of enthusiasts fall into. The whole point being made is that Eurostar's fares are appalling value for money for this journey. The solution to that isn't going to be to spend twice as long making the journey in the minds of any ordinary travellers.

 

[FQTV]

Personally, I'm minded to think that a nine hour, 700 mile rail journey probably should cost about £100 each way; anything lower is probably only ever going to be a means to fill empty seats on unsocially-timed positioning services.

More specifically and practically for this routing, however, would Paris > Annecy (which is available as a through ticket from Eurostar) offer any additional options @yorkie ? It's 45 minutes on a Flixbus from Annecy Gare to Geneva; there are a few per day and they start at about EUR5.

As an aside, fares from London to Nice next week on British Airways run from £31 to £748 one way. Leeds Bradford to Tenerife is from £49 to £310 within the space of four days at the end of the month, so whilst we are probably becoming conditioned to the notion that flying can be cheap, air travel probably still has a bit more variation in fare levels than rail. To a certain extent it has to, to balance the £31 and £49 heavily loss-making fares.

 

[Nicholas43]

Considering, also, the land airports lay waste which could be woods, how about crowd-funding Yorkie to travel the best way: cycle to Hull, overnight ferry Hull to Zeebrugge, trains Zeebrugge Brussels Paris Geneva? Maybe subscribers could get an autographed copy of the trip report?

 

[EssexGonzo]

Trouble is, there is A LOT of competition on the London to Geneva aviation route. It's one of those that always seems to be cheap to fly, even from London City.

Once there, there's the old town - with your back to the lake or the Rhone, go across the Rue de Rhone and the old town spreads upwards from there. Some nice eateries, although mind-bendingly expensive.

Incidentally, food and drink near the Cornavin station: Les Brasseurs, for a lively beer. La Trattoria da Tonino for a pizza - actually not bad value.

If you're thinking of booking to stay at the Novotel - beware, it's bang in the middle of the red light district which is alarmingly close to the shops and office districts! That made walking back from the office to hotel interesting - never threatening but very, well, out in the open.

I used to go to Nyon quite a lot - a lovely train journey along the lake's north shore. From Nyon you can get the small train up through Trelex which goes on up the mountain to La Cure in the ski area - did that once, quite scenic.

Overall, Geneva itself is safe and OK but not exactly a historic or beautiful city. But there is a "reassuringly expensive" vibe to Switzerland that I quite like.

 

[Starmill]

Personally, I'm minded to think that a nine hour, 700 mile rail journey probably should cost about £100 each way; anything lower is probably only ever going to be a means to fill empty seats on unsocially-timed positioning services.

But on an aircraft it's commercially priced at £30-50? You think that's what 'should' happen? Really?

 

[superjohn]

But on an aircraft it's commercially priced at £30-50? You think that's what 'should' happen? Really?

Yes, because it isn’t comparing like with like. That is a short journey in the world of aviation, it is a very long train journey. Environmental concerns aside, aviation is set up for that kind of distance, so it is cheaper. In the same way as it is cheaper to cross the Atlantic by plane than by sea.

If I were going to Geneva I would also go by train. For me the journey would be as much a part of the trip as the destination, rather than simple transport there. I would correspondingly happily pay two or three times as much.

The reality is that Eurostar is a business. If they can fill that seat with a Paris passenger why would they want to go out of the way to attract a longer distance fare, their share of which is likely to be smaller.

Air travel is underpriced, that isn’t sustainable and sooner or later things will have to change.

 

[BRX]

But on an aircraft it's commercially priced at £30-50? You think that's what 'should' happen? Really?

Arguably the air fare should be higher.

Going by train has an environmental impact too of course. It's not just the mode of transport that is significant but the distance. Some would say that even by train, making multiple short duration long distance trips is not sustainable. Therefore (picking up on previous comments) maybe it's right that pricing is set such that (by any mode of transport) it makes sense for a 7 day trip but not a 2 day one.

 

[BRX]

The reality is that Eurostar is a business. If they can fill that seat with a Paris passenger why would they want to go out of the way to attract a longer distance fare, their share of which is likely to be smaller.

I'm interested to understand why they are (or have been) willing to sell seats to DB for inclusion in their reduced-price long distance fares, for what seems to be significantly less than what they charge their "own" passengers.

 

[Starmill]

Arguably the air fare should be higher.

There's no room for doubt about that. However, that would be near impossible to achieve because people are so resistant to tax increases. That's a discussion for another thread though.

 

[Starmill]

I'm interested to understand why they are (or have been) willing to sell seats to DB for inclusion in their reduced-price long distance fares, for what seems to be significantly less than what they charge their "own" passengers.

Indeed. They're totally happy to sell bargain tickets to Amsterdam too, but that's entirely so that they can grow their reputation and make nice press releases with lots of tulips saying "x million passengers take Eurostar to Amsterdam".

It's also true that a lot of the time they are adopting the Virgin Trains school of yield management, and do not fill all of the seats. There is no doubt that this applies in Business, it's explicitly so, but it seems to be creeping in elsewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also true that a lot of the time they are adopting the Virgin Trains school of yield management, and do not fill all of the seats. There is no doubt that this applies in Business, it's explicitly so, but it seems to be creeping in elsewhere.

It is intriguing that airlines operate on the basis of "a bum on every seat even if it's for a pittance, better to get a tenner than nowt" yet both VTWC and Eurostar don't/didn't find that works for them.

 

[Starmill]

Some would say that even by train, making multiple short duration long distance trips is not sustainable.

As my analysis attempted to persuade, ten or more weekends in Geneva by IC225, E320 and TGV could be had for the carbon cost of just one by EasyJet. So what's your point? People shouldn't be travelling? Shouldn't try to travel responsibly?

A visit to a city only 900 or so miles away for just a few days is hardly something we can persuade people they should quit.