York to Worksop: RDG again denying us our right to make sensible journeys

[yorkie]

It has been brought to my attention that a few years ago what is now known as the Rail Delivery Group (RDG, aka ATOC) removed via Sheffield as a permitted route for York to Worksop.

This is despite the route having protected/regulated status (as it was valid under British Rail and at privatisation) and being totally reasonable.

This results in their NRE website suggesting that the following itinerary is the best you can do to get back after 9pm:

York              2118
Newark North Gate 2203

(Walk across Newark)

Newark Castle     2255
Nottingham        2328

(Overnighter in Nottingham)

Nottingham        0540
Worksop           0649

And that'll cost you £21.40 (valid for those trains only, so if staff on the day advised you'd be able to complete the journey that night after all, you'd be stuffed)

Oh and you can't actually buy that using the links provided, as you'll be presented with this:

The good guys at National Rail Enquiries have passed you to us to complete your booking.

Please check the details below before continuing.

Journey Ticket status
York to Nottingham Fare Not Found
Nottingham to Worksop Fare Not Found

I can only assume "good guys" is sarcasm. I mean, it has to be sarcasm, right?

However that is ridiculous; Trainsplit will sell you this much more sensible itinerary:

York         2118
Doncaster    2139

Doncaster    2149
Sheffield    2221

Sheffield    2244
Worksop      2322

And for that you'll only pay £15.50

But RDG defiantly attempt to justify the removals of permitted routes by themselves and their contractors, iBlocks, by making claims that are clearly not credible.

RDG have got iBlocks removing permitted routes on a very regular basis now; the intention appears to be to reduce passenger flexibility and make things difficult for customers.

Is there anyone who can hold RDG - and their inadequate website - to account?

 

[lyndhurst25]

iBlocks? Are you sure that you are spelling that right?


Are these the same idiots who introduced this?

"700130 Circuitous Route - Customers travelling from Leeds to Rotherham Central, Swinton or Mexborough in possession of tickets routed 'Not Doncaster', may not travel via Meadowhall. This easement applies in both directions."

I'm making a Rotherham to Leeds journey this weekend. The direct train takes 73 minutes. A change at Meadowhall gives a reduced journey time of 64 minutes and is a perfectly reasonable route, not at all "circuitous". The Meadowhall to Leeds, and Rotherham to Leeds ticket prices are the same price, so people wouldn't be starting short to save money. What were they thinking? There must be dozens of other examples.

 

[eastwestdivide]

iBlocks? Are you sure that you are spelling that right?


Are these the same idiots who introduced this?

"700130 Circuitous Route - Customers travelling from Leeds to Rotherham Central, Swinton or Mexborough in possession of tickets routed 'Not Doncaster', may not travel via Meadowhall. This easement applies in both directions."

I'm making a Rotherham to Leeds journey this weekend. The direct train takes 73 minutes. A change at Meadowhall gives a reduced journey time of 64 minutes and is a perfectly reasonable route, not at all "circuitous". The Meadowhall to Leeds, and Rotherham to Leeds ticket prices are the same price, so people wouldn't be starting short to save money. What were they thinking? There must be dozens of other examples.

Weirdly, if you put Rotherham-Burley Park (or other stations that side of Leeds), the NR site does offer you "via Meadowhall" options, and for the same prices as via the routing via Moorthorpe on the direct Rotherham-Leeds trains.

 

[yorkie]

Weirdly, if you put Rotherham-Burley Park (or other stations that side of Leeds), the NR site does offer you "via Meadowhall" options, and for the same prices as via the routing via Moorthorpe on the direct Rotherham-Leeds trains.

Yes, the 'negative easement' (!) is only from Leeds at present. However when RDG read this thread, they will likely act on your suggestion and extend it to include those stations you mention.

There is no justification for this 'negative easement':

• the fares from Leeds to Rotherham are identical to the fares from Leeds to Meadowhall;
• the journey via Meadowhall is faster
• the distance via MHS is only around 3 miles greater than LDS-RMC direct
  
• passengers visiting relatives in Rotherham may wish to go shopping at Meadowhall; not everyone does just one out and back simple journey in a day!

However none of this counts for anything in the eyes of RDG.

I suggest people contact the DfT asking if they gave their approval for this (as it was valid under BR, therefore requires DfT approval) and if so, why? And if not, what action are they taking against RDG?

Also contact Northern asking if they requested it, and why? And if not, can they find out who did, and what action are they taking to remove the negative easement?

If the answers given are inadequate, go to your MP.

However if we do not ask difficult questions, they will keep getting away with it.

 

[Rover]

Weirdly, if you put Rotherham-Burley Park (or other stations that side of Leeds), the NR site does offer you "via Meadowhall" options, and for the same prices as via the routing via Moorthorpe on the direct Rotherham-Leeds trains.

Probably not for much longer if they are reading this thread!

 

[Merseysider]

The people in charge of “managing” the RG are completely detached from reality.

No member of staff in real life with even the most basic knowledge of the local area would take issue with that route.

 

[yorksrob]

The sooner that 'here today, gone tomorrow' train companies are relieved completely of the ability to decide what does and what does not constitute a valid route, the better.

 

[OwlMan]

It has been brought to my attention that a few years ago what is now known as the Rail Delivery Group (RDG, aka ATOC) removed via Sheffield as a permitted route for York to Worksop.

This is despite the route having protected/regulated status (as it was valid under British Rail and at privatisation) and being totally reasonable.

This results in their NRE website suggesting that the following itinerary is the best you can do to get back after 9pm:

York              2118
Newark North Gate 2203

(Walk across Newark)

Newark Castle     2255
Nottingham        2328

(Overnighter in Nottingham)

Nottingham        0540
Worksop           0649

And that'll cost you £21.40 (valid for those trains only, so if staff on the day advised you'd be able to complete the journey that night after all, you'd be stuffed)

[

It is easy to get round this buy your ticket from Shireoaks (both Sheffield & Worksop valid routeing points) for the same price

 

[yorkie]

True, there are many ways to get around it (and the person who used this ticket to get to our York forum meal the other day is well aware of them), so this is good advice.

However RDG are restricting permitted routes to such an extent, that to avoid being ripped off and mislead, customers effectively have to become fares experts (or use a site like Trainsplit, though of course Trainsplit won't be able to advise on solutions such as buying a ticket to an alternative destination).

I suspect some people in RDG are restricting routeings intentionally in order to attempt to justify proposing a new system that works in the favour of the train companies, and against passengers, such as setting components of the journey (note: the OP of that thread is not connected with RDG however it's the sort of thing they would like to do), so that longer distance journeys are very expensive, and passengers would be penalised for using connecting services that currently cost no extra due to clustering.

I am well aware there are many good people within RDG who do not agree with this. But they seem to be increasingly drowned out, sadly.

Make no mistake: there is a war against passengers going on. And it's a war we cannot afford to lose.

 

[robbeech]

It is easy to get round this buy your ticket from Shireoaks (both Sheffield & Worksop valid routeing points) for the same price

Valid, but a late (ha) night return from York via Sheffield would mean a further single ticket would be required between Shireoaks and Worksop. Given the quite appealing journey time from Worksop to York (all be it not that frequent) it is surprising there isn't a more appealing Day Return.

 

[ashworth]

Fares from stations like Mansfield and Hucknall on the Robin Hood Line, to destinations like York and Newcastle, are also probably affected by this Worksop to York situation.

I found out when travelling to Newcastle earlier this year that the already expensive £90.50 Off Peak Return from Hucknall or Mansfield is not valid changing at Worksop and Sheffield. It is valid travelling via Worksop and Retford. However, it is also valid by much longer routes by first travelling south via Nottingham and then various routes from Nottingham to Newcastle. Yet to travel via Worksop and Sheffield it is a higher fare of £106.80.
Travelling at peak times is even more ridiculous with the Anytime Return via Worksop and Sheffield set at £201.60 compared to £149 via all the other routes.

I would not pay any of these fares because when travelling north I almost always split at Sheffield often making significant savings. Incidentally then I can make use of the cheaper via Worksop tickets to Shefffield from Robin Hood Line stations. However, like others posting here I know about how to get these lower fares by splitting at Sheffield but I expect most people travelling north from Mansfield do not know and pay the much higher through fares.

 

[robbeech]

Anything south of Shirebrook is not in the cluster and goes up astronomically in price when travelling north. A friend travels to York a few times a month for work and lives in Mansfield Woodhouse. The anytime return she is expected to purchase is £84.50!
By getting a day return 1 stop to Shirebrook the SOR to York from there is then only £45. Split ticketing at its best. Of course you do lose the validity to go via Nottingham/Sheffield or Nottingham/Newark.

I’m not sure which part of the line is causing the expense to go via Sheffield. A Mansfield Woodhouse to York is perfectly valid via Sheffield but only if you go via Nottingham first. If you go via Worksop and then via Sheffield you need the special pants down ticket which the SOR is £116.70

They’re just making it up surely.

 

[ashworth]

Anything south of Shirebrook is not in the cluster and goes up astronomically in price when travelling north. A friend travels to York a few times a month for work and lives in Mansfield Woodhouse. The anytime return she is expected to purchase is £84.50!
By getting a day return 1 stop to Shirebrook the SOR to York from there is then only £45. Split ticketing at its best. Of course you do lose the validity to go via Nottingham/Sheffield or Nottingham/Newark.

I’m not sure which part of the line is causing the expense to go via Sheffield. A Mansfield Woodhouse to York is perfectly valid via Sheffield but only if you go via Nottingham first. If you go via Worksop and then via Sheffield you need the special pants down ticket which the SOR is £116.70

They’re just making it up surely.

I knew about the splitting tickets at Shirebrook, but as that means you cannot then travel via Sheffield, I tend to split at Sheffield instead. I've been caught out before with almost 1 hour to wait at Retford and then another wait at Worksop. As you say, the Mansfield to York ticket is only valid via Sheffield if you first travel south via Nottingham. Once you get to Nottingham you can also travel via a number of other routes which are much longer in mileage than the using that small stretch of line between Worksop and Sheffield. I really cannot understand why you have to buy a more expensive ticket to enable travel between Worksop and Sheffield. I also wonder whether many Northern guards on those trains actually know that the ticket isn't valid.

 

[robbeech]

I knew about the splitting tickets at Shirebrook, but as that means you cannot then travel via Sheffield, I tend to split at Sheffield instead. I've been caught out before with almost 1 hour to wait at Retford and then another wait at Worksop. As you say, the Mansfield to York ticket is only valid via Sheffield if you first travel south via Nottingham. Once you get to Nottingham you can also travel via a number of other routes which are much longer in mileage than the using that small stretch of line between Worksop and Sheffield. I really cannot understand why you have to buy a more expensive ticket to enable travel between Worksop and Sheffield. I also wonder whether many Northern guards on those trains actually know that the ticket isn't valid.

The ticket is also valid to change at Worksop, Gainsboro Lea Road and Doncaster. There is usually a train in the gap hour that there isn't a train from Retford. It takes longer and doesn't get you to York any faster but it gives you more time on a train if you don't mind a shorter wait at Gainsboro. I usually go and get a sandwich from Aldi which is a 5 minute walk away.
A Mansfield Woodhouse and south is valid via Nottingham and Lincoln to save the Newark Castle to Northgate Walk.
As for the guards knowing, incredibly unlikely they know or at least care but if it isn't permitted and we don't have permission to do it we can't do it.

 

[kieron]

It has been brought to my attention that a few years ago what is now known as the Rail Delivery Group (RDG, aka ATOC) removed via Sheffield as a permitted route for York to Worksop.

Does "a few years ago" mean 10 years ago when Worksop was made a routeing point, or has something changed more recently with this route?

However that is ridiculous; Trainsplit will sell you this much more sensible itinerary:

On the other hand, it will only shows the 20:36 with changes at Doncaster and Retford if you force it to only show that route. If you're stopping overnight, this means that it shows a more expensive fare involving a train from Sheffield which gets in a minute earlier.

When a web site only shows a handful of results at a time, it's hard to work out which results a visitor would find useful.

 

[Moonshot]

How many passengers a year make a trip from York to Worksop and return ?

 

[yorkie]

How many passengers a year make a trip from York to Worksop and return ?

LENNON data is not made public, so we don't know.

But what's that got to do with anything?

RDG have got iBlocks removing permitted routes on a very regular basis now; the intention appears to be to reduce passenger flexibility and make things difficult for customers. Overall, there must be thousands of journey opportunities which are being denied to us across the network, of which this is just one example.

 

[Moonshot]

LENNON data is not made public, so we don't know.

But what's that got to do with anything?

RDG have got iBlocks removing permitted routes on a very regular basis now; the intention appears to be to reduce passenger flexibility and make things difficult for customers. Overall, there must be thousands of journey opportunities which are being denied to us across the network, of which this is just one example.

I guess its not a big flow then......but from what I can see by just having a quick look , that journey can be made with just one change anyway?

 

[yorkie]

I guess its not a big flow then......

I don't get your point?

but from what I can see by just having a quick look , that journey can be made with just one change anyway?

Did you read my opening post?

For much of the day, yes a single change would be possible, though to get it down to one change you'd usually have to be changing at Sheffield, rather than Retford.

 

[robbeech]

The fact it can be done with 1 change isn’t that relevant. It’s a 2 hourly service to go that way or hourly if it were permitted via Sheffield.
The last possible opportunity from York to get back to Worksop is 1932, that involves 2 changes including a nearly 50 minute wait at Retford.
Allowing via Sheffield makes the last opportunity to leave York 2118, nearly 2 hours later, this does also involve 2 changes but allows you to stay in York much later.