markymark2000
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By this do you mean basically no splitting it up to sell whole divisions/management buyouts but there are/were some depot sales lined up for smaller sales?
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Yorkshire Tiger acquired by Transdev
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Robertj21a
On Moderation
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Time flies, I thought that was in 2020.
Brooke
Member
My view, as a local...
But it's fantastic if they can - and I wish them well with it!
- Unsurprising it’s been sold (especially given their recent competitive problems, the slump to being a loss-maker in the group, and the need for DB to sharpen up Arriva financially)
- Great for the presumably long-suffering employees (if they’ve been around a while) if this brings some stability and under a decent employer
- Great for the people of Huddersfield if the existing services shape up and if there’s some innovation with new routes
- Can’t see why they’d go head to head with First on their core network, while there’s scope to take on weaker competition on tenders, and to innovate with new routes (eg express routes mentioned above)
- Comes with some risk for Transdev to make it work: many people have tried in different constellations, including Stagecoach, Centrebus/Arriva, the former Paul Roter business which was pretty sharp, etc. Can Transdev find a profitable formula which has been elusive so far?
But it's fantastic if they can - and I wish them well with it!
It just might have been in the first month or two of 2020. I do know that the Streetdecks are on 69 plates.
I'd be surprised if that happens. It's been tried a few times, most recently by HJC, one of the former parts of Tiger.
cnjb8
Established Member
I said Arrivas last new buses were some E400s for London. But in the provincial fleet, yes that is correct. The remainder were sold to Ensignbus for use in their own fleet
They arrived September 2019. The ones that were rejected were not complete when Wright collapsed
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
That is/was my understanding. An IPO lined up but clearing out some of the worst bits such as Cannock. Hadn’t heard Tiger was one of the bits but not a shock.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Why was Tiger kept with a separate brand? Was it with a view to selling it sooner rather than later, or was it due to staff T&Cs being different (the reason, I believe, why the MK Metro brand lasted a few years after takeover of that)?
I wonder whether this has been on the cards for a while as something that has struck me as odd is that recently Tiger have been sending vehicles to St Helens Jackson Street depot for repaint. Yes I can understand this with the former flying tiger buses but other vehicles, including the MCV Evolutions, have been sent down there and repainted out of Tiger livery and into Arriva livery and transferred out of Tiger and into the main Arriva operations.
Alex Hornby himself says completion is set for summer so any timetable changes, if any, probably won't take place until sometime in the Autumn at the earliest.
As for possible service changes I wonder if any services will transfer depots/operations in the future. For example, could the 502 Halifax-Keighley service end up being operated out of Keighley Depot?
Alex Hornby himself says completion is set for summer so any timetable changes, if any, probably won't take place until sometime in the Autumn at the earliest.
As for possible service changes I wonder if any services will transfer depots/operations in the future. For example, could the 502 Halifax-Keighley service end up being operated out of Keighley Depot?
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wibble1989
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First tried this when they got a bit brave an X8 peak expresses to Leeds and X80 expresses to White Rose in the off peak. Think it was around the time they took on Transdev with the X64 York - Leeds service which they withdrew from but has made some really positive improvements on that particular corridor.
And before that for many years with the M62 bus. I liked it (especially when there was a bus after 2300 from Leeds when the last bus to Halifax was around 2230) , but loadings were never very high.
Manclad83
Member
The Waterloo depot was County Motors who Yorkshire Traction had a stake in and who were eventually taken over outright by YTC. The County Name was resurrected in the 80’s/early 90’s when YTC liveried some of its vehicles in a County livery.
I never saw YTC at Waterloo being odd, certainly no more so than Doncaster or Rawmarsh. They naturally operated, like you say, in the Debby Dale, Clayton West and Shepley areas which weren’t served by WYPTE/Yorkshire Rider plus the 234 towards Penistone and Barnsley, 235 to Darton & Barnsley, 236 to Cawthorne & Barnsley and some X39 towards Penistone & Sheffield.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Interestingly, Transdev has leased a number of their vehicles (as do many London operations). There used to be a significant premium on lease vs. purchase but that has narrowed appreciably.
It'll be interesting to see what transfers across to Transdev. The Solos are fairly standard and guess a few more Versas are fine. However, a load of Dafs....
I did have a run on Tiger a few years back (Wakefield to Holmfirth) with one of their Tempos - not bad machines as a passenger.
There are passengers traveling Halifax–Leeds but few end-to-end to justify a more direct service. The A58 doesn't have many houses along the direct route, so the former 223/224/226 routes were merged into one (now the 255) many years ago. The 508 was similarly merged with the old 15/71/759 Farsley route.
It says they’ve purchased 61 buses which is almost everything except for a few vehicles which is probably due to them not taking on the 231/232
So they’ll end up with the VDLs and Tempos etc, but what buses stay in the fleet when it all shakes down will be the main question
I missed out on this news and discussion yesterday as I was otherwise engaged....
I think this is an odd move by Transdev. I can see that it is complementary geographically and it could bring savings on operating the Leeds-Bradford Airport routes. But everywhere else they operate Transdev are the principal operator and are able to provide a quality service but at fares which are probably at the higher end of the market. This won't work for an operation which is in the margins around First and Arriva, mostly with tendered routes and just a few commercial ones. I agree with other commentators that it would not be in their interest to suddenly start competing with First or Arriva, however bad they are in the area (and I don't think that the Yorkshire operations of either company are down to their worst national standards). Investment will be needed by reports of the state of the fleet. So, even if they are buying it at a bargain basement price, how are they going to develop the business and its profitability and get a return on that investment?
I think this is an odd move by Transdev. I can see that it is complementary geographically and it could bring savings on operating the Leeds-Bradford Airport routes. But everywhere else they operate Transdev are the principal operator and are able to provide a quality service but at fares which are probably at the higher end of the market. This won't work for an operation which is in the margins around First and Arriva, mostly with tendered routes and just a few commercial ones. I agree with other commentators that it would not be in their interest to suddenly start competing with First or Arriva, however bad they are in the area (and I don't think that the Yorkshire operations of either company are down to their worst national standards). Investment will be needed by reports of the state of the fleet. So, even if they are buying it at a bargain basement price, how are they going to develop the business and its profitability and get a return on that investment?
WY Bus Spotter
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I may be way off here, but I always feel like Blazefield have the abilty to fund takeovers like this with massive backing from Transdev, who let's not forget are a huge international company. This gives them time to turn the operation around into something hopefully profitable over a period of a few years. They don't seem to be as eager to get an instant turnaround as some other companies may be. They know slow and steady typically wins the race and that you aren't going to get people out of their cars over night. You need to show that your buses are worth getting out of your car for, which for me personally living in Transdev land is the case.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Ah but as we've seen before, there are sometimes a bit of moving things around either on grounds of fleet alignment or net book value. What was at Arriva Cannock's depot didn't all transfer to D&G. That they're getting 61 vehicles is stated and most will doubtless transfer but wonder if all will.
Those may be considerations though with franchising, they needn't make the purchase. I know where @RELL6L is coming from; it isn't immediately apparent and enough firms have had a try in the past. Alex H will undoubtedly have his reasons and it may well be for some or all of the reasons you suggest.
Going back to @tbtc who wondered why Waterloo depot had been a Tracky depot.... It's an odd one. County Motors were the operator and they were bought jointly by West Riding (independent), Yorkshire Woollen (BET) and what became Yorkshire Traction (BET) and was so operated for 40 years until the NBC was formed. Remember that this was before South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire (and their PTEs) were created so essentially you had a depot that was in the West Riding of Yorkshire, and any one of three firms could have had it. As it was, it became a Tracky depot but yeah, it possibly would've made more sense to be a YWD depot.
County Motors was jointly purchased by West Riding, Yorkshire, and Barnsley & District (as Yorkshire Traction was then) - in 1927 - because its operating area east of Huddersfield crossed over the established operations of the three purchasers. Barnsley & District had first run into Huddersfield from Barnsley in 1923, and opened its own Huddersfield depot in 1925 to service its routes to the south-east of Huddersfield. NBC rationalisation saw County absorbed by Yorkshire Traction because it too had a depot in Huddersfield - the County premises at Waterloo were more spacious than Yorkshire Traction's premises at St Andrew's Road, and so the combined operation (County's Manager became Yorkshire Traction's Huddersfield Garage Superintendent) moved to Waterloo. Subsequently, Yorkshire Traction took over Huddersfield JOC's share of the Huddersfield-Dewsbury services (joint with Yorkshire), service revisions in 1971 saw these joined with Yorkshire's Dewsbury-Leeds services and also the commencement of duties on Yorkshire's Huddersfield-Cleckheaton-Leeds and Ossett-Dewsbury-Brighouse-Elland/Queensbury services - the 1971 changes resulted in Yorkshire Traction operating far outside its or County's pre-1969 areas.
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Well, there you go. I knew some of the history but thanks for that more comprehensive explanation
Brooke
Member
I don’t have any inside knowledge, however I reckon been on the cards for a few months - accounts are overdue at Companies House by a few months, which can be a typical sign.
One service that would work better being retimed is the 502 Keighley-Halifax. That would only work well if it was worked from Keighley, a driver's break was taken at Keighley each hour or the route interworked at Keighley with another. The 502 follows the 67 for much of the combined route from beyond Deholme to Keighley on many trips - I'm assuming this is so Metro can't be accused of subsidising a competing service.
tbtc
Veteran Member
I remember the M62, from the Cursed Folderline days (the nickname that seemed to do the rounds at the time) - a simple and attractive livery that I think would work on modern vehicles.
But it's going to be hard to compete with the train, unless you offer something a little different - the M62 was diverted via the White Rose (in the final years of the service, to try to drum up some additional demand) - maybe an Illingworth - Halifax - Leeds service would offer something that the train doesn't - but Halifax now has a straightforward fifteen minute train service to Leeds (taking pretty much half an hour each) - so anything running via the M62 is going to struggle to match that
Interesting.
I suppose that the way that the services changed in later years (the scrapping of the X68/239/X39 corridor to Sheffield, the cutting back of the Penistone services too) meant that there was less and less running through from Huddersfield to the "main" Tracky operation in South Yorkshire (cuts that were happening years before Stagecoach took over and then sold the Waterloo operation) - as @TheGrandWazoo helpfully pointed out, the map of bus operations was set up at the time when a Huddersfield - Barnsley/ Sheffield service was entirely within West Riding (rather than in the PTE era, where Tracky straddled two separate areas)
That's a good point.
The best example I can think of is TrentBarton buying TM Travel, which was a relatively low-cost operation based on red Optare Solos and South Yorkshire PTE/ Derbyshire Council tenders - they've evolved TM into focussing more on running commercial services with branded vehicles (albeit some of the TM fleet still clearly has the branding for the East Midlands service visible underneath the paintwork!) - so it's more of a quality operation than it used to be (but this is possibly a combination of "PTE/Councils no longer have the money to pay for as many tendered services" and "First/Stagecoach have cut back on a number of their previous commercial routes, leaving a gap for TM to take over routes like the 30 in Sheffield, which was beefed up to every twenty minutes under TM").
However, TM have focussed on filling the gaps left by others, rather than taking First/ Stagecoach on directly - given the suggestions on here that Tiger could/should compete with Arriva/First in West Yorkshire.
Meanwhile, with TM moving a little up market, we have Powells filling the gap that TM used to (the cheap/cheerful operator of last resort for PTE tenders etc).
Good points (as always) - it always seemed odd to me, but then I only moved south of the border after the setting up of South Yorkshire - maybe the idea was that Yorkshire Traction needed a certain market size in order to keep the different operators a similar size?
(but then, as we've discussed on other threads, the justifications for "which NBC operator got which depot" is complicated/ fascinating/ messy!)
Interesting - thanks for explaining - I'd forgotten about Barnsley & District when it came to the "low-cost operators" (since Yorkshire Traction revived the name around thirty years ago)
I remember being the only passenger on an X62 around twenty years ago, the extension of the old 262 Huddersfield - back roads - Dewsbury route to Leeds in the final days of Yorkshire Traction (back when they also operated the X32 into Leeds)
cnjb8
Established Member
Can someone clarify the history of Waterloo depot?
Am I right in thinking it was Yorkshire Traction, who has sold to Stagecoach, who then sold the depot to Arriva, who then sold it to Centrebus, who then sold it back to Arriva under Yorkshire Tiger, who was then now sold to Transdev?
Am I right in thinking it was Yorkshire Traction, who has sold to Stagecoach, who then sold the depot to Arriva, who then sold it to Centrebus, who then sold it back to Arriva under Yorkshire Tiger, who was then now sold to Transdev?
The M62 always served the White Rose Centre, that was one of the main reasons for the service, it being introduced when the White Rose was fairly new and seen as a big deal.
The introduction and subsequent beefing up of the rail service at Brighouse was one reason why it no longer runs as well.
Worth pointing out that both Elland and Waterloo depots aren’t exactly massive, so they don’t have much room for all this expansion many enthusiasts are planning, Elland particularly so.
The introduction and subsequent beefing up of the rail service at Brighouse was one reason why it no longer runs as well.
Worth pointing out that both Elland and Waterloo depots aren’t exactly massive, so they don’t have much room for all this expansion many enthusiasts are planning, Elland particularly so.
Funny you should say that. One of the many permutations of the M62 did see it extended back to Illingworth.
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