Yorkshire Tiger acquired by Transdev

[Andyh82]

I thought the 223/4 were shortened so they didn't serve Halifax in a deal with First (or its predecessors). The 223/4 were much faster than the 508 is now (and far faster than the 255).

No, the 223 was withdrawn and then a few years later the 224 was withdrawn, with the 226 diverted as a 227 covering the Halifax to Cleckheaton section, and other services such as the 254 covering the Cleckheaton to Leeds section. There was a period where as a result Arriva didn’t provide a Halifax to Leeds service

 

[tbtc]

The M62 always served the White Rose Centre, that was one of the main reasons for the service, it being introduced when the White Rose was fairly new and seen as a big deal.

Ah, sorry, maybe it was the "circular" nature of the route at the Leeds end I was thinking of - I remember it changing to running Halifax - White Rose - Leeds - Halifax (and must have forgotten that the previous route was Halifax - White Rose - Leeds - White Rose - Halifax - apologies

Funny you should say that. One of the many permutations of the M62 did see it extended back to Illingworth.

Ah, didn't realise that!

I was just thinking of some of the other routes that compete with train lines into Leeds - e.g. the 110 served Hall Green etc on the far side of Wakefield so that it offered something different to the trains (similarly, the Rotherham - Sheffield bus services seemed to work better when they served places on the far side of Rotherham too since they couldn't compete with the trains) - whereas a simple Halifax Town Centre - Leeds express bus isn't going to offer anything that the train can't (unless you had some intermediate stops that the train didn't offer)

 

[Glenn1969]

They sent the M62 via a very roundabout route to get to the motorway from Halifax. I don't think that helped. The X80 wasn't frequent enough- think there were only 3 or 4 a day with several hours between them.

 

[Deerfold]

No, the 223 was withdrawn and then a few years later the 224 was withdrawn, with the 226 diverted as a 227 covering the Halifax to Cleckheaton section, and other services such as the 254 covering the Cleckheaton to Leeds section. There was a period where as a result Arriva didn’t provide a Halifax to Leeds service

The 227 was the evening and Sunday version of the 226. The 254 was Halifax - Leeds for a while. I'll need to do a bit of looking up to find the details.

 

[Glenn1969]

The 226 must have been the most aimless bus in Yorkshire. It took so many detours it was over 2 hours from Halifax to Leeds

 

[JRT]

I thought the 223/4 were shortened so they didn't serve Halifax in a deal with First (or its predecessors). The 223/4 were much faster than the 508 is now (and far faster than the 255).

The Caldaire/YWD 223/224 took about an hour (as compared to the ‘old’ 508 that took 1h05, so not much difference). There was also a 226 that ran a longer route via Morley.
The deal with YR/First was to swap ownership with the 498 Wakefield–Doncaster (as this was well outside the First/YR’s operating area).
Not sure of the exact history of the routes Don't now what happened after that, the routes disappeared but the 226 continued for years afterwards in various forms.

Currently the 255 is timed around 1h25 and the ‘new’ 508 varies around 1h25.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Caldaire/YWD 223/224 took about an hour (as compared to the ‘old’ 508 that took 1h05, so not much difference). There was also a 226 that ran a longer route via Morley.
The deal with YR/First was to swap ownership with the 498 Wakefield–Doncaster (as this was well outside the First/YR’s operating area).
Not sure of the exact history of the routes Don't now what happened after that, the routes disappeared but the 226 continued for years afterwards in various forms.

Currently the 255 is timed around 1h25 and the ‘new’ 508 varies around 1h25.

Wasn't the 498 the one major route that YR's Kinsley outpost had?

I don't know how much of a market for Halifax to Leeds exists that wouldn't be catered for by the train... I'm supposing that the 508/255 don't have much end to end traffic (given its >twice as long a journey) and it's more a series of overlapping flows. However, are there areas on the outskirts of Halifax that could provide trade....?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Why was Tiger kept with a separate brand? Was it with a view to selling it sooner rather than later, or was it due to staff T&Cs being different (the reason, I believe, why the MK Metro brand lasted a few years after takeover of that)?

Arriva wasn't permitted under competition regulations to brand it as Arriva as it would have had a too much of a foothold in West Yorkshire thus making it bigger than First West Yorkshire at the time. Hence why Yorkshire Tiger (and Tiger Blue for the K Line operation) was created, the fact that it was a low cost unit ment that Arriva could use it as a dumping ground for old buses from their various operations - I'd probably include the ticket machines too since they never worked half the time when using a West Yorkshire Combined Authority issued M Card (which replaced the paper based MetroCard).

Who remembers the Optare Solo with a mishmash of K-Line, Centrebus, Tiger Blue and Yorkshire Tiger livery?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Well seeing as they didn't want Waterloo depot when they purchased YT, selling it to Centrebus, then I highly doubt it. What makes you think that Stagecoach fancy competing with First in West Yorkshire?


Gotta feel a bit for the longer serving staff at Waterloo, having been with Tracky who were purchased by Stagecoach. No real change but then to Centrebus, then to Yorkshire Tiger, and then to Transdev. However, it was always a bit of an outpost with Tracky. It was opportunistic for Centrebus but with Yorkshire Tiger, it seemed to be one of those activities that were entered into with great hope but soon began to suffer from lack of managerial focus. @Andyh82 has called it right enough.... a mere stepping stone to some and an incumbrance to others

If it were First, people would be (rightly) calling them out for it but Arriva have a lot of form for similar purchases (see Chase Bus, TGM/Classic)

Considering that when Stagecoach bought Tracky all they got with the West Yorkshire stuff was whatever operated out of Waterloo, fast forward over a decade later and with most of West Yorkshire covered by what is now operated by Yorkshire Tiger through various mergers - Stagecoach could be interested at a having another crack at competing with First albeit with a larger network and serving where they have never served before, thus creating an image which says you can either stick with First or there's always Stagecoach.

It'd also mean that the Halifax locals could be rejigged to offer north Halifax another operator besides First ever since TJ Walsh shut down in 2020. I'm thinking along the lines of Stagecoach vs First in Sheffield before the bus partnership thing came into being.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

It says they’ve purchased 61 buses which is almost everything except for a few vehicles which is probably due to them not taking on the 231/232

So they’ll end up with the VDLs and Tempos etc, but what buses stay in the fleet when it all shakes down will be the main question

The 231/232 - Where does leave the early morning departures from Huddersfield and the lates from Wakefield? Would these still be operated by First or would Arriva get the lot but split between Heckmondwike and Wakefield depots, with Hecky doing the Huddersfield end?

https://www.wymetro.com/buses/timetables/231/pdf/27776

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The M62 always served the White Rose Centre, that was one of the main reasons for the service, it being introduced when the White Rose was fairly new and seen as a big deal.

The introduction and subsequent beefing up of the rail service at Brighouse was one reason why it no longer runs as well.

Worth pointing out that both Elland and Waterloo depots aren’t exactly massive, so they don’t have much room for all this expansion many enthusiasts are planning, Elland particularly so.

Transdev could always run a Queensbury to Leeds via Illingworth, Halifax, Brighouse and White Rose Centre service on an hourly basis which would well and truly build on a great tradition. Looking at a business point of view Transdev's ticketing would make it worthwhile especially with north Halifax being limited to the frequent First Halifax 521/522/523 and the hourly Tiger 502, bunging in a new service to Leeds would connect north Halifax to Leeds for the first time in years and would allow one to travel from lets say Illingworth to Scarborough for the day well worth the money and could be a money spinner.

 

[David Verity]

Wasn't the 498 the one major route that YR's Kinsley outpost had?

I don't know how much of a market for Halifax to Leeds exists that wouldn't be catered for by the train... I'm supposing that the 508/255 don't have much end to end traffic (given its >twice as long a journey) and it's more a series of overlapping flows. However, are there areas on the outskirts of Halifax that could provide trade....?

The 498 was a politically motivated purchase as WYPTE didn't have any buses running into Wakefield and wanted to show the NBC companies who was boss.

Why was Tiger kept with a separate brand? Was it with a view to selling it sooner rather than later, or was it due to staff T&Cs being different (the reason, I believe, why the MK Metro brand lasted a few years after takeover of that)?

Was a "low cost unit" operated outside of the main Arriva business and aimed specifically at picking up tendered work. It was a joint purchase of the Stagecoach operations in Huddersfield by Centrebus and Arriva - then Centrebus pulled out as it didn't fit logically with their other operations. It's had a distinctly downbeat look to it for a few years now.

 

[Deerfold]

Arriva wasn't permitted under competition regulations to brand it as Arriva as it would have had a too much of a foothold in West Yorkshire thus making it bigger than First West Yorkshire at the time. Hence why Yorkshire Tiger (and Tiger Blue for the K Line operation) was created, the fact that it was a low cost unit ment that Arriva could use it as a dumping ground for old buses from their various operations - I'd probably include the ticket machines too since they never worked half the time when using a West Yorkshire Combined Authority issued M Card (which replaced the paper based MetroCard).

Who remembers the Optare Solo with a mishmash of K-Line, Centrebus, Tiger Blue and Yorkshire Tiger livery?

I'd be very surprised if the competition regulations kept Arriva from branding services as Arriva.
Do you have a source for this claim?

 

[Glenn1969]

Tiger always has been an oddity. It only really came into being because I was under the impression Stagecoach bought Traction purely to get Barnsley. Huddersfield went as soon as they could find a way out via the original management buyout

 

[David Verity]

Tiger always has been an oddity. It only really came into being because I was under the impression Stagecoach bought Traction purely to get Barnsley. Huddersfield went as soon as they could find a way out via the original management buyout

Stagecoach didn’t make many friends in Huddersfield. When they took over from Tracky there were links to Leeds and Barnsley which they severed. There was a public meeting called down the Dearne Valley area at which accusations they were running the operation down were vehemently denied and a promise of investment in new buses was promised. Only a few months passed before it was announced they were pulling out.

 

[TUC]

Wasn't the 498 the one major route that YR's Kinsley outpost had?

I don't know how much of a market for Halifax to Leeds exists that wouldn't be catered for by the train... I'm supposing that the 508/255 don't have much end to end traffic (given its >twice as long a journey) and it's more a series of overlapping flows. However, are there areas on the outskirts of Halifax that could provide trade....?

Even if a Halifax-Leeds express service could not be quicker than the train, competing with it on price would be of real benefit in itself. Any competition with lazy monopolies is a throughly good thing.

 

[David Verity]

Even if a Halifax-Leeds express service could not be quicker than the train, competing with it on price would be of real benefit in itself. Any competition with lazy monopolies is a throughly good thing.

Well it would be popular with the twirlies who have to pay (at least) half fare on the train. Whether it would make any serious money is another matter,

 

[TUC]

Where I think it could be marketed is at those who catch a bus into Halifax to then have to walk across town to the station to get a train to Leeds. A simple connection at the bus station could be attractive, as could it be for those who work at the Leeds bus station side of the city centre.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'd be very surprised if the competition regulations kept Arriva from branding services as Arriva.
Do you have a source for this claim?

It's just not correct. The Competition Commission would only concern themselves with the issues of ownership and lack of competition thereof.

Given the relatively small operation and the strength of First in Halifax and Huddersfield, it's not a shock that Arriva taking ownership didn't have CC interest.

Even if a Halifax-Leeds express service could not be quicker than the train, competing with it on price would be of real benefit in itself. Any competition with lazy monopolies is a throughly good thing.

Well it would be popular with the twirlies who have to pay (at least) half fare on the train. Whether it would make any serious money is another matter,

A few twirlies, yes, but speed has a price premium that most people tend to pay for.... see Cityzap Mcr!

 

[Flange Squeal]

Who remembers the Optare Solo with a mishmash of K-Line, Centrebus, Tiger Blue and Yorkshire Tiger livery?

NY03 PUV (337)? https://www.flickr.com/photos/76935272@N05/23879996343/

 

[Deerfold]

The 226 must have been the most aimless bus in Yorkshire. It took so many detours it was over 2 hours from Halifax to Leeds

On an early trip to Leeds (I was about 14) I was walking to the station and a 226 pulled up at the stop next me. I thought I'd save myself a walk and get the bus.

Oh god, it took so long.

 

[grangergranger]

It says they’ve purchased 61 buses which is almost everything except for a few vehicles which is probably due to them not taking on the 231/232

So they’ll end up with the VDLs and Tempos etc, but what buses stay in the fleet when it all shakes down will be the main question

Correct me if I am wrong but Yorkshire Tiger has around 70ish buses. With there being 11 Optare tempos, some in Arriva livery (Excluded the driver training vehicles), I'm guessing those would be sent to Arriva Wakefield to join the existing fleet of tempos there.

 

[cnjb8]

Correct me if I am wrong but Yorkshire Tiger has around 70ish buses. With there being 11 Optare tempos, some in Arriva livery (Excluded the driver training vehicles), I'm guessing those would be sent to Arriva Wakefield to join the existing fleet of tempos there.

Depends if Wakefield need them though

 

[Welshman]

Transdev could always run a Queensbury to Leeds via Illingworth, Halifax, Brighouse and White Rose Centre service on an hourly basis which would well and truly build on a great tradition. Looking at a business point of view Transdev's ticketing would make it worthwhile especially with north Halifax being limited to the frequent First Halifax 521/522/523 and the hourly Tiger 502, bunging in a new service to Leeds would connect north Halifax to Leeds for the first time in years and would allow one to travel from lets say Illingworth to Scarborough for the day well worth the money and could be a money spinner.

Surely, passengers from Queensbury to Leeds would go to Bradford Interchange and change there on to a direct Leeds service.

Tiger currently run an interesting service 530 from Fountainhead [a new private housing estate up Ovenden Wood Rd]to Halifax Bus Station, with two journeys extended to [and one staring back from Halifax station at the bottom of Horton St, presumably to connect with peak hour trains to/from Leeds.

Would a through Fountainhead-Leeds service be one Transdev might consider for the peak time if not throughout the day?
Calling at Pellon, then along Queens Rd to King Cross, and then Halifax and Hipperholme to the M62, it might serve parts which currently do not have an easy rail service to Leeds.

 

[Andyh82]

There is hardly anyone ever on the Fountainhead Village service, its one of those developer funding jobs

 

[woodhouse122]

I remember when Tiger won a few contracts for PTE routes in South Yorkshire and the appalling service they ran ,with clapped out solos that always broke down and services that never turned up . They were so bad that they had to hand over the tenders back to the PTE well before time

 

[wibble1989]

A big chunk of Kirklees tenders are up October 2022. That could decide the direction and future of Waterloo depot.

 

[Leeds1970]

With regards to people hoping for Transdev to operate fast Halifax or Huddersfield to Leeds buses, I really don't think it will happen. As @Deerfold has already alluded to, if it is such as good idea and demand exists someone would be running a service now. If Transdev does look to expand what is currently Yorkshire Tiger, my guess would be Huddersfield across the border into Lancashire / Greater Manchester via the Hebden bridge area.

 

[RustySpoons]

with regards to people hoping for Transdev to operate fast Halifax or Huddersfield to Leeds buses I really don't think it will happen As Dearfold has already alluded to, if it is such as good idea and demand exists someone would be running a service now. if Transdev does look to expand what is currently Yorkshire Tiger my guess would be Huddersfield across the boarder into Lancashire / Greater Manchester via the Hebden bridge area

Are there any Sunday/Bank Holiday DalesBus services from Yorkshire Tiger-land into Lancashire/North Yorkshire?

 

[Andyh82]

Huddersfield to Greater Manchester via Hebden Bridge???