Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[bnsf734]

Just been announced on the 3pm news that the ASLEF drivers have rejected their offer.

 

[infobleep]

The government has effectively infinitely deep pockets. They can just keep on doing it for as long as the RMT likes. GTR are protected.

Further strikes obviously won't work for the RMT, they simply can't win this one. ASLEF probably didn't want to accept the deal, but they knew it was the best they could get for their members, and sensibly decided to take it.

You mean the tax payer does. They talk about needing to save money. £50 million plus isn't saving money.

 

[455driver]

Maybe the thread title needs changing to reflect the fact that ASLEF have now rejected the off, ie it was never accepted in the first place!

 

[infobleep]

Which of those parties is hurt more by throwing away money though?

Possibly the guards as they don't have the whole country to support them.

Perhaps if a just giving page was set up to support them, then they would have deeper pockets.

The government have the taxes and national insurance contributions from all the tax payers to back them. Not sure what GTR has to bavk them except their parent company.

 

[HowardGWR]

I conclude that there will be very little chance of any further ASLEF strikes, if only 374 out of 953 voted against. That fact will not be lost on the employers side, when negotiations resume.

 

[infobleep]

ASLEF Union saying they will respect the members wishes and will try to negotiate a slight improvement in terms

Good timing on the RMTs behalf. As their is now a gap for ASLEF to renegotiate.

 

[Bookd]

It seems that Southern crew consider that their services are indispensable, and that may be true up to a point, particularly in the London commuter market but maybe not so much elsewhere.
If you look at the long London bus strike in the fifties the unions took the same view, but the outcome was that huge numbers of passengers found that they could change their lives so that they did not need to use the buses that they had used for years - quite a number of routes that were suspended were never restored, there were lots of job losses, and it took nearly 60 years for volumes to get back to the pre strike levels.
With today's news I am sure that many Southern passengers will be looking at the train as a last resort rather than a first preference.

 

[ar10642]

You mean the tax payer does. They talk about needing to save money. £50 million plus isn't saving money.

Well, yes. The government only has the money we all give it, or what it borrows. I suspect this isn't really about money for HMG, rather a combination of wanting to modernise/increase flexibility of working practices and reducing the RMT's power. Who knows?

It doesn't change the fact that RMT can't really get what they want on this.

I guess this kind of chaos is what happens when you get a Tory government who are not worried about opposition. Perhaps if Labour weren't so useless at the moment they could have forced the government into some positive action to sort this out.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well, yes. The government only has the money we all give it, or what it borrI guess this kind of chaos is what happens when you get a Tory government who are not worried about opposition. Perhaps if Labour weren't so useless at the moment they could have forced the government into some positive action to sort this out.

Labour, or at least the Blair/Brown/Prescott/Adonis version, would have taken the same path as the Tory DfT has done.
It's all based on "productivity" and the railway record over the last 20 years is poor.
The McNulty report, on which this was based, was commissioned by Labour.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Yes 317 (45.9%)
No 374 (54.1%)
turnout 72.7% (693/953)
Invalid 2

The daily lives of thousands ruined by so few.

DOO is safe. It has been proved safe all over the country. With all the right tools in place it will be safe across Southern's network too. Why are we hanging on to a role that is more to do with steam age and not a modern electric fleet on a modern railway?

I'll bite as a passenger. DOO is statistically safe, but by the same token it's statistically unlikely your house will burn down. Fancy getting rid of the fire brigade?

In any event the control of the doors is just one part of the dispute I suspect a bigger part is the presence of a second member of staff who can assist when there are issues on board, who can advise passengers, diagnose faults etc.

In my opinion it's ridiculous that we believe it's safe for the driver to control up to 1000 passengers on their own.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Turnout at 72% is a bit lower than I would have expected for such a sensitive issue.

I can kinda imagine drivers just finding the whole issue so toxic they come to the conclusion that abstaining is the best option. Not saying it is, mind.

Not too difficult to imagine the kind of conversations that are likely happening now in Whitehall.

 

[DarloRich]

Not too difficult to imagine the kind of conversations that are likely happening now in Whitehall.

sack em all!

 

[Mag_seven]

Not too difficult to imagine the kind of conversations that are likely happening now in Whitehall.

None - they are all on holiday (Parliament in recess and half term week).

 

[455driver]

Labour, or at least the Blair/Brown/Prescott/Adonis version, would have taken the same path as the Tory DfT has done.
It's all based on "productivity" and the railway record over the last 20 years is poor.
The McNulty report, on which this was based, was commissioned by Labour.

Yeah 2 people on a train carrying potentially over 1000 people is so wasteful isnt it! :roll:

Even a 2 car diesel unit carrying (off peak) 50 people will probably still be better than the equivalent bus.

The McNulty report was held back and re-written when the Tories took over, I wonder why bearing in mind the results should have been the same, but then it depends what 'they' wanted the answer to be doesnt it!

You can get any answer you want if you ask the right question!

 

[455driver]

sack em all!

That comes post 2019 when the franchise is let on a full DOO specification.

 

[NickBucks]

sack em all!

No need for that. Just provide plenty of overtime opportunities for the 317 who voted in favour ( perhaps with a bonus for completing the first say two O/T shifts). For those who voted against just dock their pay on the next strike day. I am sure the monetary difference will concentrate a few minds.

 

[Joe Paxton]

None - they are all on holiday (Parliament in recess and half term week).

Parliament ('Westminster') is in recess but the machinery of government ('Whitehall') grinds on, and ministers will be in the office at least some of the week, as well civil servants.

Though those MPs who are out and about in their Southern-(un)served constituencies will likely get a bit of feedback too!

 

[ainsworth74]

No need for that. Just provide plenty of overtime opportunities for the 317 who voted in favour ( perhaps with a bonus for completing the first say two O/T shifts). For those who voted against just dock their pay on the next strike day. I am sure the monetary difference will concentrate a few minds.

It's a secret ballot and even if it wasn't it was a ballot held by ASLEF so it's not as if GTR would be able to work out who had voted in favour.

 

[Moonshot]

It seems that Southern crew consider that their services are indispensable, and that may be true up to a point, particularly in the London commuter market but maybe not so much elsewhere.
If you look at the long London bus strike in the fifties the unions took the same view, but the outcome was that huge numbers of passengers found that they could change their lives so that they did not need to use the buses that they had used for years - quite a number of routes that were suspended were never restored, there were lots of job losses, and it took nearly 60 years for volumes to get back to the pre strike levels.
With today's news I am sure that many Southern passengers will be looking at the train as a last resort rather than a first preference.

probably some truth in that......I myself would consider my options if I was working in The City and relied on Sothern to get me there. Would be interesting to see how passenger volumes work out in the next couple of years on Southern Routes

 

[HowardGWR]

In my opinion it's ridiculous that we believe it's safe for the driver to control up to 1000 passengers on their own.

Control pax? Where did you get such an idea? Ask fellow poster DeepGreen!

 

[313103]

No need for that. Just provide plenty of overtime opportunities for the 317 who voted in favour ( perhaps with a bonus for completing the first say two O/T shifts). For those who voted against just dock their pay on the next strike day. I am sure the monetary difference will concentrate a few minds.

There i was thinking we live in a democracy not a dictatorship, oh well the mind boggles.

 

[Joe Paxton]

probably some truth in that......I myself would consider my options if I was working in The City and relied on Sothern to get me there. Would be interesting to see how passenger volumes work out in the next couple of years on Southern Routes

I'm in little doubt that lasting damage has been made to Southern's (potential) passenger base, albeit to varying extents across the network. Not good.

 

[ComUtoR]

No need for that. Just provide plenty of overtime opportunities for the 317 who voted in favour ( perhaps with a bonus for completing the first say two O/T shifts). For those who voted against just dock their pay on the next strike day. I am sure the monetary difference will concentrate a few minds.

Do you think that would improve or decrease morale and/or galvanise staff for or against the company ?

 

[pompeyfan]

Yes 317 (45.9%)
No 374 (54.1%)
turnout 72.7% (693/953)
Invalid 2

The daily lives of thousands ruined by so few.

DOO is safe. It has been proved safe all over the country. With all the right tools in place it will be safe across Southern's network too. Why are we hanging on to a role that is more to do with steam age and not a modern electric fleet on a modern railway?

Air travel is statistically the safest form of travel per person, so by your logic we're safe to downgrade air hostesses/hosts to nothing more than literally kit Kat sellers, and in extreme circumstances planes should run without people who are employed in these positions... seems fair enough right?

 

[jon0844]

I'll bite as a passenger. DOO is statistically safe, but by the same token it's statistically unlikely your house will burn down. Fancy getting rid of the fire brigade?

Huh? Wouldn't it be more that your house is unlikely to burn down, so you don't need to have someone remain in it at all times in case it does?

 

[AlterEgo]

None - they are all on holiday (Parliament in recess and half term week).

Whitehall is definitely not on holiday.

 

[Lee_Again]

I'll bite as a passenger. DOO is statistically safe, but by the same token it's statistically unlikely your house will burn down. Fancy getting rid of the fire brigade?

In any event the control of the doors is just one part of the dispute I suspect a bigger part is the presence of a second member of staff who can assist when there are issues on board, who can advise passengers, diagnose faults etc.

In my opinion it's ridiculous that we believe it's safe for the driver to control up to 1000 passengers on their own.

The fire brigade analogy is simply daft. If you use that logic where do you stop?

DOO have been running for years with only a very small number of issues. And some of those, a second person would have made no difference. I have commuted in to London for years. We have 12 coach trains, trains that run under ground and I don't remember a single problem.

I do remember when Moorgate trains were directed to King's Cross because a guard wasn't available. That was really annoying.

Since that situation changed it largely runs very well.

Guards use to do much more simply because they had to. Steam locos were regularly uncoupled from coaches and safe braking systems were needed. But this era has long gone. In the same way we don't need a second man (remember all the horror stories we were told if a they were removed).
Progress is progress. Unfortunately I don't see this as anything other than jobs for the sake of jobs.

There's plenty a second person can do on a train from revenue collection and all the things you talk about. But if somebody isn't available, cancelling the train is not on. The risk is so small. As is proved every single day.

 

[455driver]

Air travel is statistically the safest form of travel per person, so by your logic we're safe to downgrade air hostesses/hosts to nothing more than literally kit Kat sellers, and in extreme circumstances planes should run without people who are employed in these positions... seems fair enough right?

Yep seems reasonable, cant see the need of having 2 people in the cockpit either, thats got to be exprensive.

In fact short haul flights (say, less than 2 hours) could probably be done with just the pilot on board who will only actually have about 10 minutes work to do (take off and landing).

That should get the costs of air travel down/make more profit.

 

[ComUtoR]

Progress is progress. Unfortunately I don't see this as anything other than jobs for the sake of jobs.

Any why is that a bad thing ?

The Government does job protection and job creation and fights against unemployment. But it's ok to help destroy an entire workforce on the railway.

 

[pompeyfan]

Yep seems reasonable, cant see the need of having 2 people in the cockpit either, thats got to be exprensive.

In fact short haul flights (say, less than 2 hours) could probably be done with just the pilot on board who will only actually have about 10 minutes work to do (take off and landing).

That should get the costs of air travel down/make more profit.

Exactly, and any pilot that refuses to agree to these new terms should be sacked, there's loads of people who would do the job of airline pilot on current pay & conditions....