Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[JamesTT]

Look at every other DOO scheme in England and tell me where the displaced Guards are now?
They are all long since gone,I see no reason for Southern to be any different.
Unless you can point me to where there is a DOO scheme in England that has retained a second person on board in any capacity!

HS1 so I am led to believe from previous posts. The other question is what happened to those that became equivalent of OBS's. Did they become an unemployment statistic or where they given alternative role? Nobody seems to no the answer to this. I would hazard a guess that it is the latter, because some on here would have been very quick to tell me if the former was the case.

 

[313103]

There is no actual evidence for this claim.

What the ultimate aim to eliminate Guards or for getting out of paying redundancy payments in 2019?

 

[455driver]

If the cap fits, wear it :roll:

If you need to ask for views on why DOO is better than crew operation I think you'll find that there's over 11,000 previous postings to help.

Perhaps you could give me a quick overview as its so readily available-

DOO is good because-

 

[infobleep]

I'm in little doubt that lasting damage has been made to Southern's (potential) passenger base, albeit to varying extents across the network. Not good.

Perhaps they will be able to save money because not so much rolling stock will be needed as less people being carried on the train. Might help claw back some of the £50 million

 

[JamesTT]

In a word badly, the wheelchair passengers simply dont travel by train.

I have read various reports from disabled groups who, without fail, find it more difficult to travel on Southern now than they did last year, even if the OBS is on board there is still the stress of not knowing if they are there until the train actually turnsn up.

Do you have links to these reports? Maybe RMT should be trying to estimate potential for lost revenue if this is the case

 

[Wombat]

I am still trying to work out why DOO is better than crew operation and up to now nobody has given me a decent answer, by the time you factor in the costs of installing and maintaining all the DOO equipment, access for all legislation etc I just cant see the figures adding up.

I am sure if you were a disabled passenger that up to the end of last year could just turn up and go at your local station, but now have to book 24 hours in advance to book assistance (which might or might not turn up) maybe you wouldnt be so keen on DOO!

I think that DOO is bad, for reasons of accessibility, but a service that is capable of running DOO in abnormal conditions would be better than the current situation. The trick would be in wording the contract in such a way that the TOCs are not able to engineer abnormal conditions through incompetence or mendacity. I thought that the ASLEF agreement took a decent stab at that, but clearly the membership disagrees.

 

[Robertj21a]

Perhaps you could give me a quick overview as its so readily available-

DOO is good because-

By the volume of your postings I'm sure you have plenty of spare time available to do your own research rather than expect others to do it for you.

Unless, of course, you're simply trying to taunt/troll......

 

[Moonshot]

In a word badly, the wheelchair passengers simply dont travel by train.

I have read various reports from disabled groups who, without fail, find it more difficult to travel on Southern now than they did last year, even if the OBS is on board there is still the stress of not knowing if they are there until the train actually turnsn up.

Have you got a link to a report? This is an issue which will find its way up my neck of the woods eventually ( Northernland ). As it stands now, we do a lot of unnannounced wheelchair assists...

 

[Carlisle]

I can kinda imagine drivers just finding the whole issue so toxic they come to the conclusion that abstaining is the best option. Not saying it is, mind.

Not too difficult to imagine the kind of conversations that are likely happening now in Whitehall.

I highly suspected the RMT had heard through their various informal channels that the ASLEF deal had most likely been rejected before announcing yesterday's strike date

 

[JamesTT]

The Guards!

This is simply the halfway house to getting rid of them without having to pay any redundancy in 2019.

Is that true they won't be paid any redundancy if the job is disbanded?

 

[dk1]

So pleased with the outcome today. My vote would have gone exactly the same way. As for those who abstained, unless it was for a very good reason I will never understand you.

 

[JamesTT]

I suppose that something as sizeable as 27% not voting doesn't really help ASLEF's position ? - oddly high, coming from people whose jobs are often directly affected.

Could it be the majority of those abstaining were from depots that were doing a lot of DOO work prior to the dispute?

 

[313103]

HS1 so I am led to believe from previous posts. The other question is what happened to those that became equivalent of OBS's. Did they become an unemployment statistic or where they given alternative role? Nobody seems to no the answer to this. I would hazard a guess that it is the latter, because some on here would have been very quick to tell me if the former was the case.

I can only comment on areas where DOO has come in where i have been employed.
Many of the Guards on the original DOO scheme (the Bedpan line) some 75% of them never saw further employment on the railway the rest were made upto RPI's.
The same can be said for those Guards made surplus when the Chiltern line went DOO, some (like myself) transferred out, some took on revenue roles but many left.
On London Overground a couple went driving, some stayed as a 'newly' created post to roam about the network, a couple left and found alternative work in the rail industry (i can count myself very fortunate as that is what happened to me), some (about 4 or 5 took early retirement) and the rest left the industry.

 

[JamesTT]

But has no guaranteed future past 2019, unlike the Guards role which did have a future.

Didn't they guarantee the role to the end of the franchise 2021 I believe

 

[LAX54]

And the Guard summons assistance giving location details etc, details an OBS wont know because they wont have any route knowledge.

Still drivers are cheap and readily available so if the odd one dies once in a while simply because there was a delay in getting medical assistance to them it doesnt really matter does it!

Recall once, and not that long ago, the DSD went off on the GSM-R in the Signalbox, and the train did not seem to be moving, there was no answer to the GSM-R when called back, there were no other trains in the near area, but after about 3 or 4 mins we got a call into the box from the Guard saying that he gone to the can, and that the driver was on the floor, out cold, and to summon the Emergency services, Guard gave us an extact location, within 10 mins the Paramdeic was there, and 30 mins the Driver Manager was there, had there been on one else on train, the outcome could have been bad for the Driver.

 

[EM2]

HS1 so I am led to believe from previous posts.

HS1 services all run with an OBM, while on HS1. Not sure on the rules when on classic lines.

 

[Moonshot]

Recall once, and not that long ago, the DSD went off on the GSM-R in the Signalbox, and the train did not seem to be moving, there was no answer to the GSM-R when called back, there were no other trains in the near area, but after about 3 or 4 mins we got a call into the box from the Guard saying that he gone to the can, and that the driver was on the floor, out cold, and to summon the Emergency services, Guard gave us an extact location, within 10 mins the Paramdeic was there, and 30 mins the Driver Manager was there, had there been on one else on train, the outcome could have been bad for the Driver.

How would that have worked if the GSM-R system wasnt in place - ie still using the old NRN ???

 

[Bertie the bus]

Have you got a link to a report? This is an issue which will find its way up my neck of the woods eventually ( Northernland ). As it stands now, we do a lot of unnannounced wheelchair assists...

We'd all like to see links to the various reports 455driver claims to have seen but as they don't exist we'll be waiting a long time.

 

[455driver]

Is that true they won't be paid any redundancy if the job is disbanded?

It happened to the Southern catering trolley staff who 'transferred' to Rail Gourmet when they took over the contract (previously in house) only for Southern to terminate the contract a week later, the staff being 'new starters' in the letter of the law got nothing, some of them had been catering trolley staff with Southern for years but it didnt count for anything, I see no reason why they wont use the new formula for this OBS role, it will have only been in existence for about 2 years which I think I am right in saying is the cut off point for redundancy payments, of course if it goes over the 2 years there wont be much to pay out compared to paying them off now as redundant Guards some of whom will have many years in.

 

[infobleep]

In a word badly, the wheelchair passengers simply dont travel by train.

I have read various reports from disabled groups who, without fail, find it more difficult to travel on Southern now than they did last year, even if the OBS is on board there is still the stress of not knowing if they are there until the train actually turnsn up.

They don't care about the disabled any more. End of it seems.

It can be stressful enough for people if your train is late and they shift the platform of your connecting train, so you are likely to miss it. Especially if the next train you could catch, if you miss your connection, is cancelled and the third one is running late.

Now imagine all of that and your in a wheelchair or require any other form of assistance and your not in a wheelchair.

I know that doesn't happen every day but then fail to in you don't know of assistance will even be there.

Perhaps the government should give anyone who requires assistance to travel, free taxi fares. I don mind adhoc
I mean they show a card and the taxi firm charge to he government.

Perhaps that is cheaper than allowing them to travel by train? After all its about saving money and nothing else.

 

[455driver]

We'd all like to see links to the various reports 455driver claims to have seen but as they don't exist we'll be waiting a long time.

It was on another forum but I cant remember which one and like this thread the ones on there are quite long and it is taking a while to trawl through them to find it.

I am sorry I was unable to post it within 4 seconds! :roll:

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Have you got a link to a report? This is an issue which will find its way up my neck of the woods eventually ( Northernland ). As it stands now, we do a lot of unnannounced wheelchair assists...

In my experience the overwhelming majority of assists, involving a wheelchair or otherwise, were unannounced. And this could happen at any time of day or night, regardless of weather conditions and even for relatively short one-stop journeys. All of which is surely as it should be under the Discrimination Act. How long before a test case severely damages the case for "pure" DOO (ie driver the only staff member on-board)?

 

[LateThanNever]

I'll bite as a passenger. DOO is statistically safe, but by the same token it's statistically unlikely your house will burn down. Fancy getting rid of the fire brigade?

In any event the control of the doors is just one part of the dispute I suspect a bigger part is the presence of a second member of staff who can assist when there are issues on board, who can advise passengers, diagnose faults etc.

In my opinion it's ridiculous that we believe it's safe for the driver to control up to 1000 passengers on their own.

Quite so.
And it seems to me nobody has to strike any more. The drivers can just walk away and sit tight. They just work as they are. RMT should do the same!

 

[Tetchytyke]

In order to counter accusations of standing in the way of progress just to save jobs, the unions should publicise cases where they have supported safety improvements in the railway despite those safety improvements directly leading to a loss or downgrading of jobs.

signalling.

 

[Moonshot]

In my experience the overwhelming majority of assists, involving a wheelchair or otherwise, were unannounced. And this could happen at any time of day or night, regardless of weather conditions and even for relatively short one-stop journeys. All of which is surely as it should be under the Discrimination Act. How long before a test case severely damages the case for "pure" DOO (ie driver the only staff member on-board)?

Dont know is the honest answer, but I guess the case would fail because the T and Cs of wheelchair assists do state 24 hours notice etc. So in reality, whether booked or not, a wheelchair assist would require a ramp and a person to operate the ramp, be it station staff or train staff.

 

[infobleep]

None of these are evidence that this will go the same way. Careful use of "England" there.

No they are not evidence to say it will happen but a good indication that it might well happen.

The best example is the Gatwick Express hosts. They got rid of them very quickly.

I wonder what the betting odds are on the OBS roles remaining after 2020? I wouldn't bet on them remaining. I don't like losing money.

 

[Moonshot]

No they are not evidence to say it will happen but a good indication that it might well happen.

The best example is the Gatwick Express hosts. They got rid of Rehn very quickly.

I wonder what the betting odds are on the OBS roles remaining after 2020? I wouldn't bet on them remaining.

I would have thought consultation with the passengers would be useful in actually determining that ? Does that happen ?

 

[Barn]

No they are not evidence to say it will happen but a good indication that it might well happen.

The best example is the Gatwick Express hosts. They got rid of them very quickly.

I wonder what the betting odds are on the OBS roles remaining after 2020? I wouldn't bet on them remaining. I don't like losing money.

Do you think months of strikes between now and then will make their departure more or less likely?

 

[455driver]

Here is a letter from the ABC-
https://abcommuters.wordpress.com/2...e-answers-letter-to-charles-horton-from-abcd/

It wasnt a link it was a post, here it is in its entirety-

Just finished filming for BBC South News regarding assistance for Southen Rail.

We started at Crawley station around 11am, an agency member of platform staff (wearing either a blue or purple hi-vis) and another member of platform staff jointly put down the wheelchair ramp on to the train, but they failed to secure the ramp by putting the pins of the ramp into the holes of the train door, so I had a small bump at the of the ramp to get on to the train.

The OBS (On Board Superior) immediately came to see me as he saw me getting on, (I think he was new) he asked me where I was getting off. He was due to leave the train at Gatwick Airport, a new OBS was meant to join at Three Bridges, but didn't, I knew because the driver put a call out for the new OBS to contact him. The OBS who was mentioned to get off at Gatwick Airport didn't as apparently his next train was cancelled. But I didn't know this as the driver was still asking the new OBS to contact him.

Our route was Crawley, Three Bridges, Gatwick Airport them Horley.

We got into Crawley, no platform staff we there to meet me. So I asked the cameraman/reporter to get out of the train to see if the OBS was on the platform, then the OBS who should have got off at Gatwick Airport came rushing up and got his ramp from the train and got me off fine.

We then went outside of the station for an interview. We then noted the ticket office was closed.

We went back down to the platform and waited for the next train back to Crawley, praying their would be an OBS on board.

Whilst we were waiting, the station staff member turned up, turned out that he was on his break, but then he checked out his phones and he said he received no communication from Crawley. We did discuss that now the station staff had been issued mobile phones, but appeared that numbers for other stations were lacking, he said that he had Crawley station number and would call them.

We got on the train at Horley without a problem, but then the driver asked the OBS if I had got on as he couldn't see me because of her sun glare on his cameras, we sat there for a while as I think he still had glare issues so couldn't self dispatch. The OBS was a former guard, so wasn't sure if he asked the OBS could dispatch him.

Only former guards who were made into OBS staff are able to dispatch trains apon driver request.

He then came to see me to ask where I was getting off, he stayed on all the way to Horsham.

We then got to Crawley, but neither of the two platform staff were their to meet me. So the OBS got me off with the train ramp.

Conclusions are that station to station communication is still to poor and that EVERY OBS should be required and trained to be able to dispatch the train if the driver has equipment problems or weather related issues with the cameras.

We desperately need an OBS on EVERY train GUARANTEED!

With thanks to the original poster.

 

[Moonshot]

Here is a letter from the ABC-
https://abcommuters.wordpress.com/2...e-answers-letter-to-charles-horton-from-abcd/

It wasnt a link it was a post, here it is in its entirety-



With thanks to the original poster.

How is that a report? What I really need is some sort of official document with facts and figures .....something along the lines of how many wheelchair assists were booked in a year , and how many failed because no staff available to board them. Does make things a bit easier when fighting a cause....need some decent evidence.