Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Lemmy99uk]

Yep seems reasonable, cant see the need of having 2 people in the cockpit either, thats got to be exprensive.

In fact short haul flights (say, less than 2 hours) could probably be done with just the pilot on board who will only actually have about 10 minutes work to do (take off and landing).

That should get the costs of air travel down/make more profit.

I have had several journeys on single manned commercial aircraft.

Never been any issues with it.

 

[ar10642]

Any why is that a bad thing ?

The Government does job protection and job creation and fights against unemployment. But it's ok to help destroy an entire workforce on the railway.

Which workforce is being destroyed? Who is losing their job?

 

[jon0844]

I'm in little doubt that lasting damage has been made to Southern's (potential) passenger base, albeit to varying extents across the network. Not good.

The disruption has been going on for long enough that I am sure there have been people who have reconsidered the benefits of working in London for more money, while enjoying the benefits of living in Brighton or the surrounds.

Some may have had no choice but to find work elsewhere.

If there continue to be problems this year, some will say enough is enough. Or some will get a car and drive to London (or near to, where they can change to a tube or bus). Of course, does GTR get hurt if this happens?

 

[455driver]

I have had several journeys on single manned commercial aircraft.

Never been any issues with it.

I bet they werent the size of an A318 or 737 were they!

How about twice the passenger capacity of a 380 in the hands of just one pilot, would you be happy with that?

 

[radamfi]

In order to counter accusations of standing in the way of progress just to save jobs, the unions should publicise cases where they have supported safety improvements in the railway despite those safety improvements directly leading to a loss or downgrading of jobs.

 

[455driver]

Which workforce is being destroyed? Who is losing their job?

The Guards!

This is simply the halfway house to getting rid of them without having to pay any redundancy in 2019.

 

[ar10642]

The Guards!

This is simply the halfway house to getting rid of them without having to pay any redundancy in 2019.

There is no actual evidence for this claim.

 

[74A]

I bet they werent the size of an A318 or 737 were they!

How about twice the passenger capacity of a 380 in the hands of just one pilot, would you be happy with that?

Trains are not planes. There is a second pilot on board who flies the plane if the pilot is incapacitated. A Guard does not drive. If there is a problem with the driver the train just stops.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

There is no actual evidence for this claim.

Just look at GatEx

 

[455driver]

There is no actual evidence for this claim.

Look at every other DOO scheme in England and tell me where the displaced Guards are now?
They are all long since gone,I see no reason for Southern to be any different.
Unless you can point me to where there is a DOO scheme in England that has retained a second person on board in any capacity!

 

[455driver]

Trains are not planes. There is a second pilot on board who flies the plane if the pilot is incapacitated. A Guard does not drive. If there is a problem with the driver the train just stops.

And the Guard summons assistance giving location details etc, details an OBS wont know because they wont have any route knowledge.

Still drivers are cheap and readily available so if the odd one dies once in a while simply because there was a delay in getting medical assistance to them it doesnt really matter does it!

 

[455driver]

Just look at GatEx

Or the much talked about original Bed-Pan scheme.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yep seems reasonable, cant see the need of having 2 people in the cockpit either, thats got to be exprensive.

In fact short haul flights (say, less than 2 hours) could probably be done with just the pilot on board who will only actually have about 10 minutes work to do (take off and landing).

That should get the costs of air travel down/make more profit.

Just what this thread needs, the 5,000th rehashing of the same old argument.

 

[ar10642]

Look at every other DOO scheme in England and tell me where the displaced Guards are now?
They are all long since gone,I see no reason for Southern to be any different.
Unless you can point me to where there is a DOO scheme in England that has retained a second person on board in any capacity!

None of these are evidence that this will go the same way. Careful use of "England" there.

 

[455driver]

None of these are evidence that this will go the same way. Careful use of "England" there.

Of course it was carefully worded.

What evidence can you provide that they wont be done away with in the not too distant future?
Would you be willing to bet your livelihood and house on it?


The StrathClyde DOO scheme only has ticket examiners on board as part of the contract between StrathClyde PTE and ScotRail, there was need for a contract because ScotRail were routinely running with up to 25% of trains without the required TE on board.

Does the recently opened Bathgate line always have TEs on board or are they hit and miss on there?

 

[455driver]

Just what this thread needs, the 5,000th rehashing of the same old argument.

The pro DOO lot arent coming up with anything original either, its just new posters making the same old arguments!

 

[EM2]

Progress is progress. Unfortunately I don't see this as anything other than jobs for the sake of jobs.

Why is this progress?

 

[joncombe]

Yep seems reasonable, cant see the need of having 2 people in the cockpit either, thats got to be exprensive.

In fact short haul flights (say, less than 2 hours) could probably be done with just the pilot on board who will only actually have about 10 minutes work to do (take off and landing).

That should get the costs of air travel down/make more profit.

There actually are some flights that already run as "pilot only operation" (for want of a better phrase). No not 737s and the like but short hops to islands for example. I've been on flights to both the Isles of Scilly and Channel Islands that have had the pilot as the only member of staff on board. I believe it is only permitted with small numbers of passengers though (less than 20?)

 

[455driver]

There actually are some flights that already run as "pilot only operation" (for want of a better phrase). No not 737s and the like but short hops to islands for example. I've been on flights to both the Isles of Scilly and Channel Islands that have had the pilot as the only member of staff on board. I believe it is only permitted with small numbers of passengers though (less than 20?)

So a plane carrying less than 20 passengers is equivalent to a DOO train carrying up to/slightly over 1000 passengers.

 

[Barn]

Planes and trains are completely different in almost every respect. Let's all stop comparing them.

 

[455driver]

Why the limit on passenger numbers, surely if its safe for a plane carrying 20 passengers to just have 1 pilot on board why not a A319 or 737, or even a A380 or 747 for that matter.
Surely if its safe its safe!

 

[ar10642]

Of course it was carefully worded.

What evidence can you provide that they wont be done away with in the not too distant future?
Would you be willing to bet your livelihood and house on it?


The StrathClyde DOO scheme only has ticket examiners on board as part of the contract between StrathClyde PTE and ScotRail, there was need for a contract because ScotRail were routinely running with up to 25% of trains without the required TE on board.

Does the recently opened Bathgate line always have TEs on board or are they hit and miss on there?

The claim was that jobs will be lost. Even if that is the case in some unspecified point in the future (much like anyone's job really), it's definitely not the case now. So, unless someone has some evidence to the contrary, the claim that jobs are being lost is false.

 

[AlterEgo]

This thread was regaining its sanity until quite recently.

 

[Robertj21a]

This thread was regaining its sanity until quite recently.

Agreed. Some posters appear to have returned with an agenda to disrupt sanity, again.

:roll:

 

[Wombat]

The Government does job protection and job creation and fights against unemployment. But it's ok to help destroy an entire workforce on the railway.

It creates jobs (or at least it should) by managing the economy, not by creating or maintaining unnecessary jobs to boost the employment statistics. If you're creating jobs to dig holes and fill them in again there's something wrong with your economy.

On the other hand, until someone invents a device for assisting disabled passengers I don't think that the guard/OBS role can be reasonably considered unnecessary. In my view the RMT have played their hand poorly by focusing more on safety, an argument which most of us passengers appear to view with scepticism, than on accessibility, which is a clear and unambiguous problem.

 

[455driver]

Agreed. A poster appears to have returned with an agenda to disrupt sanity, again.

:roll:

Edited that for ya!

I am still trying to work out why DOO is better than crew operation and up to now nobody has given me a decent answer, by the time you factor in the costs of installing and maintaining all the DOO equipment, access for all legislation etc I just cant see the figures adding up.

I am sure if you were a disabled passenger that up to the end of last year could just turn up and go at your local station, but now have to book 24 hours in advance to book assistance (which might or might not turn up) maybe you wouldnt be so keen on DOO!

 

[JamesTT]

Nobody wins from strikes but the staff have been backed into a corner and have either got to accept this temporary non-job or fight their corner.

How is it a 'non job' was RPO/RPI a 'non job' do ticket examiners on scot rail have a 'non job' ?

 

[Moonshot]

Edited that for ya!

I am still trying to work out why DOO is better than crew operation and up to now nobody has given me a decent answer, by the time you factor in the costs of installing and maintaining all the DOO equipment, access for all legislation etc I just cant see the figures adding up.

I am sure if you were a disabled passenger that up to the end of last year could just turn up and go at your local station, but now have to book 24 hours in advance to book assistance (which might or might not turn up) maybe you wouldnt be so keen on DOO!

How does that work now where services are already DOO?

 

[Robertj21a]

Edited that for ya!

I am still trying to work out why DOO is better than crew operation and up to now nobody has given me a decent answer, by the time you factor in the costs of installing and maintaining all the DOO equipment, access for all legislation etc I just cant see the figures adding up.

I am sure if you were a disabled passenger that up to the end of last year could just turn up and go at your local station, but now have to book 24 hours in advance to book assistance (which might or might not turn up) maybe you wouldnt be so keen on DOO!

If the cap fits, wear it :roll:

If you need to ask for views on why DOO is better than crew operation I think you'll find that there's over 11,000 previous postings to help.

 

[455driver]

How does that work now where services are already DOO?

In a word badly, the wheelchair passengers simply dont travel by train.

I have read various reports from disabled groups who, without fail, find it more difficult to travel on Southern now than they did last year, even if the OBS is on board there is still the stress of not knowing if they are there until the train actually turnsn up.