Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[kw12]

Originally Posted by otomous
DOO drivers can tell you about daily near misses that they are scared to report for fear that they will be held responsible which is one reason why you haven't seen them yet.

I do hope this is not true, because it would be a sackable offence.

If there are so many "near misses" why have no passengers (who witnessed or were involved with them) raised awareness of any of them, e.g. via social media or their local press?

 

[tsr]

If there are so many "near misses" why have no passengers (who witnessed or were involved with them) raised awareness of any of them, e.g. via social media or their local press?

In my experience, many passengers involved in near-misses have not the foggiest that they have been involved in one. They don't even care.

I have dragged people away from walking heel-to-toe on the white (not yellow) line on the very edge of a platform because they were facing the wrong way and talking on their phone, and were about to be wiped out by a train at 90mph. They walked away without so much as pausing their conversations.

I have had school kids and people riding bikes come within inches of pretty much certain death by being stupid in the dispatch corridor - the wrong place at the wrong time. When I've intervened, I can't think of one of them which has cared.

I have had people lean their full body weight on a train where the guard caught sight of them (where a driver wouldn't, dispatching similar stock) within milliseconds before they'd have given the ready to start signal. Said people would have, for certain, fallen into the gap and been struck by the wheels if platform staff had just given an RA and the train was accelerating away.

I am aware of a particularly vivid story about a lady putting her head into the gap between carriages (platform side of the gangway curtain) of a train on the Southern network last year, on a line which is now DOO and on stock where the cameras don't adequately cover that. The guard was just closing their local door and was keeping a good lookout. Had they not, the lady would have probably been beheaded.

I am aware that a DOO train with a vulnerable, ill passenger at a major, staffed station came within moments of dispatch being completed because there was no procedure to make sure the information was handled correctly.

Passengers wouldn't report these things because they never saw the hazard or reacted to it, or else they saw something was in place to safeguard them - on that occasion. Maybe not the next.

This sort of thing happens every day, particularly on dark winter weekend evenings or boiling summer afternoons or in the school run, all of which are times when a dedicated person should be looking after passengers, which can be more necessary during station work than any other time. At these times it is quite hard enough for a driver to monitor safety issues concerning driving, let alone dispatch. Very little, if any, kit is available to cope with all the varied idiocy and ignorance which a small minority of passengers come up with.

 

[otomous]

In my experience, many passengers involved in near-misses have not the foggiest that they have been involved in one. They don't even care.

I have dragged people away from walking heel-to-toe on the white (not yellow) line on the very edge of a platform because they were facing the wrong way and talking on their phone, and were about to be wiped out by a train at 90mph. They walked away without so much as pausing their conversations.

I have had school kids and people riding bikes come within inches of pretty much certain death by being stupid in the dispatch corridor - the wrong place at the wrong time. When I've intervened, I can't think of one of them which has cared.

I have had people lean their full body weight on a train where the guard caught sight of them (where a driver wouldn't, dispatching similar stock) within milliseconds before they'd have given the ready to start signal. Said people would have, for certain, fallen into the gap and been struck by the wheels if platform staff had just given an RA and the train was accelerating away.

I am aware of a particularly vivid story about a lady putting her head into the gap between carriages (platform side of the gangway curtain) of a train on the Southern network last year, on a line which is now DOO and on stock where the cameras don't adequately cover that. The guard was just closing their local door and was keeping a good lookout. Had they not, the lady would have probably been beheaded.

I am aware that a DOO train with a vulnerable, ill passenger at a major, staffed station came within moments of dispatch being completed because there was no procedure to make sure the information was handled correctly.

Passengers wouldn't report these things because they never saw the hazard or reacted to it, or else they saw something was in place to safeguard them - on that occasion. Maybe not the next.

This sort of thing happens every day, particularly on dark winter weekend evenings or boiling summer afternoons or in the school run, all of which are times when a dedicated person should be looking after passengers, which can be more necessary during station work than any other time. At these times it is quite hard enough for a driver to monitor safety issues concerning driving, let alone dispatch. Very little, if any, kit is available to cope with all the varied idiocy and ignorance which a small minority of passengers come up with.

All this sounds disturbingly familiar(!)

Did we establish why she stuck her head between coaches?!

 

[ComUtoR]

I do hope this is not true, because it would be a sackable offence.

Is it ? Never heard that at my TOC.

 

[Barn]

DOO drivers can tell you about daily near misses that they are scared to report for fear that they will be held responsible which is one reason why you haven't seen them yet.

It does seem slightly counter-intuitive for drivers:

• on the one hand to be complaining that their concerns about the safety of DOO are not being taken seriously; and
• on the other hand not to be reporting near-miss incidents and thus not facilitating the collation of data.

Hopefully drivers are at least reporting the matter to their union?

 

[tsr]

All this sounds disturbingly familiar(!)

Did we establish why she stuck her head between coaches?!

I seem to remember something either about lost property on the track, or acting up in front of a friend who was on the train. One or the other. There are many of both types of incident...

 

[furnessvale]

DOO drivers can tell you about daily near misses that they are scared to report for fear that they will be held responsible which is one reason why you haven't seen them yet. Or that they will be deemed unfit to do the job if they keep bringing up such difficulties.

Presumably guards also under-report for exactly the same reasons.

 

[tsr]

Sometimes on the contrary. I believe many near-misses are not reported because the crew believe that their routine actions, which prevented or massively mitigated the incident, were carried out perfectly in accordance with the rules, so they have no breaches or problems to worry about - and they're very used to having to protect the public from themselves, so think nothing of seeing it as a day-to-day hazard of the job.

In other words, someone does a stupid thing, guard or driver doesn't move the train, sorts it out, on the move in a couple of minutes. No injury, no drama, just good pro-active action. But it never gets seen by the records, because it wasn't reported as a near-miss.

 

[otomous]

It does seem slightly counter-intuitive for drivers:

• on the one hand to be complaining that their concerns about the safety of DOO are not being taken seriously; and
• on the other hand not to be reporting near-miss incidents and thus not facilitating the collation of data.

Hopefully drivers are at least reporting the matter to their union?

See TSR's excellent answers about just how much work goes on to prevent mishaps and why every event doesn't get reported. Frankly I could spend another day writing up all my fears and possible moments that could turn nasty after my shift. It seems a level of risk is being accepted by the powers that be when it suits but staff are left between the devil and the deep blue sea when it comes to how to how they should respond to that risk.

If a culture of fear had not started to build up recently, I sense there would have been less resistance to full DOO but when you see your colleagues being held responsible for what is deemed acceptable risk levels, you start to think about how easily it could be your turn next.

 

[footprints]

Another strike date for RMT guards on Southern Rail called for Tuesday 1st August. Seems a complete waste of their members' money seeing as it coincides with the ASLEF/RMT drivers' strike action.

 

[Economist]

As a trainee driver, my interest in this is bascially that I don't want to end up in court because someone got injured or killed during a DOO dispatch. Prior to James Street, I can see very few prosecutions related to dispatch matters, it seems a lot of incidents were put down to passenger (ir)responsibility.

Since James Street, the CPS et al seem to have taken a much more active approach to blaming rail staff. I do wonder whether a government/CPS commitment not to prosecute drivers who had DOO dispatch incidents would resolve the current situation on Southern.

As an aside, I've noticed that some drivers are very much in favour of putting their head out the window when using platform monitors, i.e. making it obvious on CCTV they're looking and completing their checks. Do you think this would reduce the odds of a successful prosecution in a dispatch incident? Also, could looking back down the train incriminate a driver if the monitors aren't great and something did happen?

 

[JamesTT]

I think it is important not to lose sight of the main reason for this dispute. The government want to annihalate the RMT well the railway side of it at least and greatly weaken the power that ASLEF have. The RMT want anyone that becomes a guard to be guaranteed a job for life. ASLEF want their members to have an extra big cake and eat it.

 

[baz962]

Hi guys may I ask how much do you all see it as safety ie would you happily keep a guard and have no raise in pay. I am currently coming through the process, just a dmi left + medical if I get through that and passed everything else and I have to admit the thought of dragging someone isn't sitting good with me aside from possible prosecution I don't like to see people hurt am I letting myself in for something I may not like.

 

[ComUtoR]

Hi guys may I ask how much do you all see it as safety ie would you happily keep a guard and have no raise in pay.

For no change to any terms and conditions and to retain/gain a Guard I would happily forgo any pay rise (inflation rise excluded).

 

[baz962]

For no change to any terms and conditions and to retain/gain a Guard I would happily forgo any pay rise (inflation rise excluded).

Do you generally worry about operating doo ComUtoR

 

[ComUtoR]

Do you generally worry about operating doo ComUtoR

Every single day.

 

[otomous]

I think it is important not to lose sight of the main reason for this dispute. The government want to annihalate the RMT well the railway side of it at least and greatly weaken the power that ASLEF have. The RMT want anyone that becomes a guard to be guaranteed a job for life. ASLEF want their members to have an extra big cake and eat it.

No one expects a job for life

What cake is that exactly then?

 

[cjmillsnun]

For no change to any terms and conditions and to retain/gain a Guard I would happily forgo any pay rise (inflation rise excluded).

Do you generally worry about operating doo ComUtoR

Every single day.

That says all I need to know. I suspect most drivers would feel the same.

 

[baz962]

That says all I need to know. I suspect most drivers would feel the same.

Yes and many thanks ComUtoR I really do worry about that but I can't let it put me off the job

 

[Economist]

Same here, both as a passenger and a trainee driver, I've seen passengers do dangerous things. Recently saw someone on the platform play with a door button once the train was moving, seen people try and grab moving trains etc.

As a driver you really must follow the company procedure on DOO to the letter and avoid hurrying (you'll never be prosecuted for a late train).

Taking your time with the train safety check is really important, in a couple of recent incidents which have made the news the interlock to power selection time has been minimal, we're talking tenths of a second. That sort lf thing can give those seeking to apportion blame something to aim at.

 

[baz962]

Same here, both as a passenger and a trainee driver, I've seen passengers do dangerous things. Recently saw someone on the platform play with a door button once the train was moving, seen people try and grab moving trains etc.

As a driver you really must follow the company procedure on DOO to the letter and avoid hurrying (you'll never be prosecuted for a late train).

Taking your time with the train safety check is really important, in a couple of recent incidents which have made the news the interlock to power selection time has been minimal, we're talking tenths of a second. That sort lf thing can give those seeking to apportion blame something to aim at.

Thanks for that

 

[Bishopstone]

A bad day on the Uckfield line, already reduced to an hourly service, with both an AM and PM peak round trip cancelled due to unit failures.

With fewer Uckfield diagrams and the Rye peak extras on Marshlink cancelled, it's amazing GTR still can't find a handful of diesel units fit enough to make it through a days work.

 

[87015]

Strike days start of August = NO GTR-SOUTHERN TRAINS WILL BE ADVERTISED TO RUN

Limited Gatwick Express and full Thameslink service (incl Brighton -London Bridge DOO) to run.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Taking your time with the train safety check is really important, in a couple of recent incidents which have made the news the interlock to power selection time has been minimal, we're talking tenths of a second. That sort lf thing can give those seeking to apportion blame something to aim at.

Isn't one of the reasons the TOCs etc promote DOO is that it makes dispatch quicker? So they want quicker dispatch which by definition is likely to lead to more mistakes.

 

[HLE]

Strike days start of August = NO GTR-SOUTHERN TRAINS WILL BE ADVERTISED TO RUN

Limited Gatwick Express and full Thameslink service (incl Brighton -London Bridge DOO) to run.

Interesting.

In my opinion it's time to up the frequency of industrial action. The stalemate has gone on for too long - what's the maximum length a strike can last for?

Negotiations haven't worked. GTR have just ploughed through with the changes. Something's got to break this stalemate soon.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Interesting.

In my opinion it's time to up the frequency of industrial action. The stalemate has gone on for too long - what's the maximum length a strike can last for?

Negotiations haven't worked. GTR have just ploughed through with the changes. Something's got to break this stalemate soon.

But if the changes are going to be ploughed through anyway, what's the point really in stopping thousands of people from getting to work? All longer strikes would do is cripple destinations across the Southern network - commuters will lose apathy from the unions as it begins to really take hold, even if they do agree with the sentiment.

 

[infobleep]

Sometimes on the contrary. I believe many near-misses are not reported because the crew believe that their routine actions, which prevented or massively mitigated the incident, were carried out perfectly in accordance with the rules, so they have no breaches or problems to worry about - and they're very used to having to protect the public from themselves, so think nothing of seeing it as a day-to-day hazard of the job.

In other words, someone does a stupid thing, guard or driver doesn't move the train, sorts it out, on the move in a couple of minutes. No injury, no drama, just good pro-active action. But it never gets seen by the records, because it wasn't reported as a near-miss.

Perhaps they all need to be reported.

Where I am we are told to log everything to justify the amount of work we are doing and at times why we can't do it all.

 

[infobleep]

Strike days start of August = NO GTR-SOUTHERN TRAINS WILL BE ADVERTISED TO RUN

Limited Gatwick Express and full Thameslink service (incl Brighton -London Bridge DOO) to run.

I thought Thameslink was DOO even on the days that strikes didn't happen?

 

[JamesTT]

No one expects a job for life

What cake is that exactly then?

If the only change to terms and conditions attached to the pay deal related to DOO do you think it would have still been rejected?

Haven't Thameslink already accepted a similar deal which includes DOO along coastway routes and arun valley driving trains that won't even have an OBS let alone a guard?

 

[LowLevel]

K

As a trainee driver, my interest in this is bascially that I don't want to end up in court because someone got injured or killed during a DOO dispatch. Prior to James Street, I can see very few prosecutions related to dispatch matters, it seems a lot of incidents were put down to passenger (ir)responsibility.

Since James Street, the CPS et al seem to have taken a much more active approach to blaming rail staff. I do wonder whether a government/CPS commitment not to prosecute drivers who had DOO dispatch incidents would resolve the current situation on Southern.

As an aside, I've noticed that some drivers are very much in favour of putting their head out the window when using platform monitors, i.e. making it obvious on CCTV they're looking and completing their checks. Do you think this would reduce the odds of a successful prosecution in a dispatch incident? Also, could looking back down the train incriminate a driver if the monitors aren't great and something did happen?

DOO dispatch is one of your problems but not the only one. I am a guard and I stand by my driver no matter what happens. I am the train's guard and I am your tail gunner. Our TOC has recently had a couple of horror stories happen and while I won't go into detail here in public I am happy to via PM if necessary. All I can see is that if you're happy to be injured or distressed in sole charge of a train load of passengers that is your choice.