dk1
Veteran Member
CrossCountry drivers are on strike on Friday 5th April.
Rules me out trying Worcestershire Parkway on that day. Will have to take another route back to Norwich.
CrossCountry drivers are on strike on Friday 5th April.
The MSL laws haven't worked.. yet. That doesn't mean they won't at some point in the future, after many other countries around the world including in the EU have such laws. Its only a matter of time before a company or organisation will seek to apply them. I wouldn't put too much faith in those other commentators on here, after all they both predicted that the bill would never pass through into law, and that the government would yield to all rail union demands. Yet over two years later.....Biggest waste of time and effort more like and most would agree. Plenty on commentators on this very forum predicted it would be unworkable but evidently that conclusion was beyond the feeble grasp of the Government.
The MSL laws haven't worked.. yet. That doesn't mean they won't at some point in the future, after many other countries around the world including in the EU have such laws. Its only a matter of time before a company or organisation will seek to apply them. I wouldn't put too much faith in those other commentators on here, after all they both predicted that the bill would never pass through into law, and that the government would yield to all rail union demands. Yet over two years later.....
Oh they did. You may not remember, but they did.I don’t think anyone made such a statement. Simply that rail staff will fight back hard in refusing to accept an absolute sledgehammer to their terms & conditions resulting in a poorer work-life balance, whilst also compromising safety and fatigue, oh and all for a way below inflation pay increase also
Yet two years later…… .
No, you really don't. You think its a case of either you're for the union action or you hate everyone. But that simply isn't the case, life isn't as binary as people wish it to be.I suppose it’s just the perspective you wish to see, and we all know what your wish is for rail staff.
Oh they did. You may not remember, but they did.
No, you really don't. You think its a case of either you're for the union action or you hate everyone. But that simply isn't the case, life isn't as binary as people wish it to be.
CrossCountry drivers are on strike on Friday 5th April.
Thanks; I heard there was some RMT action affecting only XC, however I could be wrong.
I'm not sure why you are confused, I have made my point dozens of times over the period of the dispute. But to clarify:So I’m really confused, what is your view then? Should this deal be accepted or not lol? Because in this instance it really is either one or the other.
The union would like negotiation/ further talks, they do not have a set stone in place that it is “this % or nothing”, or “we want X and X” for example.
The government on the other hand do, they do not want negotiation or further talks, it is basically that or nothing.
So you must be either one or the other really, in this specific issue anyway.
There was certainly quite a considerable body of opinion on here prior to the first strike after the legislation passed, that thought DFT would instruct its TOCs to use MSL .
I suppose it’s just the perspective you wish to see, and we all know what your wish is for rail staff.
Honestly I cannot understand for the life of me, despite some trying to "explain" it, why this is seen as a terrible thing, other than perhaps it might feel like giving in or losing ground.
No it wasn't explained, it was an on opinion why ASLEF have chosen their strategy. The reason I offer an alternative is simple, the current strategy isn't working. I mean would you rather not have the possibility of the backpay and a no-strings deal to date? Honestly, I can't understand this thinking.It has been explained over and over again, including in post #388 by @LowLevel
why ASLEF won’t pursue your preferred “strategy”. So what is the point of endlessly repeating the same points?
i'm not in the industry now thank goodness, but from what i've seen/heard the vote was do you want your union to use further industrial action if need be, as per the law that the union must ballot members every 6 months, not do you accept the offer that's on the table...Really it has been explained to you so many times why that will not happen, the membership have voted and continue to vote overwhelming to carry on the action. So a ridiculous deal won’t put put to them just for the sake of it.
You're as likely to get as much success by trapping Mark Harper in a dark alley and not letting him out again until he explains why he refuses to accept the continuing ballot results as a rejection of his offer.No it wasn't explained, it was an on opinion why ASLEF have chosen their strategy. The reason I offer an alternative is simple, the current strategy isn't working. I mean would you rather not have the possibility of the backpay and a no-strings deal to date? Honestly, I can't understand this thinking.
The reason I offer an alternative is simple, the current strategy isn't working.
No it wasn't explained, it was an on opinion why ASLEF have chosen their strategy.
I mean would you rather not have the possibility of the backpay and a no-strings deal to date? Honestly, I can't understand this thinking.
Listen I'm under no illusions here, sending back a formal rejection by the members may not get any progress, although it did work for RMT. However the fact remains, no-one will ever know unless its tried. And its not a big ask, is it? So why not do it?You're as likely to get as much success by trapping Mark Harper in a dark alley and not letting him out again until he explains why he refuses to accept the continuing ballot results as a rejection of his offer.
Neither situation is likely to get you the answer or result you want. Neither party are breaking the deadlock.
You say that but who has the money? ASLEF members or the government? It doesn't matter if I criticise the government's tactics, there's a simple way to move things on one step. But ASLEF, and seemingly some of it's members don't want to.The government’s strategy isn’t working either, yet you don’t seem remotely interested in criticising them for offering a deal they knew wouldn’t be accepted, and then refusing to talk for nearly a year.
Prove it.It’s an opinion that happens to be shared by most ASLEF members (ie those whose opinions count) and their leadership. You don’t need to agree with it, or to like it.
You don't actually know that, and refuse the possibility of finding out.You’re still ignoring the much larger possibility that the government would find another excuse not to settle, as we know they aren’t negotiating in good faith.
Oh come on, give yer head a wobble. You've been at this for over 2 years, do you really think the government, in the run-up to an election, are going to suddenly go "do you know what, we'd better give ASLEF exactly what they want"? Honestly sometimes the mind boggles.On the other hand, if we stay as we are, there’s a chance the government will change position and allow some sort of interim settlement prior to the election. If not, we will wait until after the election; it really is that simple.
Right, so give in to whatever the government demands, no matter how draconian or extreme just because they said so. And then the same again once the deal is obviously overwhelmingly rejected, just do as they say and do not stick up for yourself.So my position is clear, the deal should be put to the members
But, it is. There have been no drastic changes to railway worker’s terms and conditions, they have maintained their work/life balance for the time being. They know they are in this for the long haul and are prepared to stay strong and resist such an attack from the government. It sounds like the above is working to me.The reason I offer an alternative is simple, the current strategy isn't working.
Prove it.
(Hint: You might need a ballot)
I'm sure an incoming Labour Chancellor will be straight on writing that cheque, whilst the editor of the Daily Wail will be going into organismic fits of excitement dreaming up the next headlines about train drivers to fill the troughs of their readership...
A TOC did try to use them , was met with an escalation of industrial action and did the sensible thing and climbed back down from their proposal to use them .Its only a matter of time before a company or organisation will seek to apply them
Of course as with everything the devil is in the detail , and whilst there are some EU countries that have MSL laws their laws have some fundamental differences with the MSL laws introduced by this government . Some of those differences are in my view the reason the legislation in its current form would never work in the UK for the rail industry at least .after many other countries around the world including in the EU have such laws.
Is it me or is this thread (and several before it) in repeat mode? Going round in so many circles I'm getting travel sick again
Just let them go over your head mate. Most of us do.I try to stay silent I really do, but it blows my mind how much it affects some people that there actually exists workers who stand up for themselves and refuse to race to the bottom.
Having a ballot is neither giving in to government demands nor draconian. In fact putting an offer to the members is pretty standard across the TU movement. ASLEF for whatever reason don't want you to have a say in the union you subscribe to. Just think about that for a second.Right, so give in to whatever the government demands, no matter how draconian or extreme just because they said so. And then the same again once the deal is obviously overwhelmingly rejected, just do as they say and do not stick up for yourself.
Thank you for confirming what I already suspected would be your response.
And you haven't had a pay rise....But, it is. There have been no drastic changes to railway worker’s terms and conditions, they have maintained their work/life balance for the time being. They know they are in this for the long haul and are prepared to stay strong and resist such an attack from the government. It sounds like the above is working to me.
So remind me. Is the strategy working, or not? Is the government begging Mick for forgiveness? Have the ASLEF members had their pay rise?No need - I’m a ASLEF member, I know scores of other ASLEF members, and I’ve personally asked Mick Whelan about the strategy. I’m not sure why you think you know better, as someone who doesn’t even work in the industry, or why you think you’re owed proof of anything. The position has been made clear, you don’t need to like it!
Another one that thinks everything is binary. I don't have an agenda, just voicing my opinions. Feel free to unfollow if you don't like them..Same old same old. I’m not going to engage any more because your agenda is obvious to everybody.
All I am arguing is that ASLEF have the ballot. Seriously what is wrong with that?I try to stay silent I really do, but it blows my mind how much it affects some people that there are actually workers who stand up for themselves and refuse to race to the bottom.
Is it me or is this thread (and several before it) in repeat mode? Going round in so many circles I'm getting travel sick again
For the benefit of those not ignoring my posts, this is a false accusation. It seems that alternative opinions are not welcome with some.A certain someone is trying to get the thread closed. I've found the Ignore function and it makes the thread much more readable and pleasant
LNER did try (probably on the orders of its political masters). Exactly as everyone predicted the response from ASLEF was to turn a single day of action into a week's worth - after all if 80% of staff are needed to run 40% of services then you can disrupt an entire week with each member only losing one day's pay.Its only a matter of time before a company or organisation will seek to apply them
So many incorrect facts here.Having a ballot is neither giving in to government demands nor draconian. In fact putting an offer to the members is pretty standard across the TU movement. ASLEF for whatever reason don't want you to have a say in the union you subscribe to. Just think about that for a second.
And you haven't had a pay rise....
But how did RMT arrive at that position? By doing nothing and blaming everyone else? ASLEF execs may not like the caveat of having to put the offer to the membership, but its within their capability to do it.So many incorrect facts here.
- RMT only put the offer to their members when it became acceptable, eg removing the red lines of the outrageous changes to terms and conditions.
- ASLEF put to vote for members of my TOC a NO STRINGS pay deal which has been accepted by its members. This TOC is not under control of the dft. Think about that for a second?
No the dispute is about the work life balance, the current impasse preventing further talks is a union executive decision.Okay. Well I have actually. But yes the others that are continuing to fight, no they have not. But, they are in it for the long haul and have proven they will not wane.
You keep saying the strategy is not working, maybe stop looking at it as a strategy then, and simply a resistance to a worse work/life balance. Does that help you understand a bit more at all?
I'm sure that would be the case at all depots. But it would be a formal rejection from the members, which is what is being asked for.At my depot, any offer with strings attached would simply get rejected by members
But how did RMT arrive at that position?