ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend

[dk1]

CrossCountry drivers are on strike on Friday 5th April.

Rules me out trying Worcestershire Parkway on that day. Will have to take another route back to Norwich.

 

[Bantamzen]

Biggest waste of time and effort more like and most would agree. Plenty on commentators on this very forum predicted it would be unworkable but evidently that conclusion was beyond the feeble grasp of the Government.

The MSL laws haven't worked.. yet. That doesn't mean they won't at some point in the future, after many other countries around the world including in the EU have such laws. Its only a matter of time before a company or organisation will seek to apply them. I wouldn't put too much faith in those other commentators on here, after all they both predicted that the bill would never pass through into law, and that the government would yield to all rail union demands. Yet over two years later.....

 

[Val3ntine]

The MSL laws haven't worked.. yet. That doesn't mean they won't at some point in the future, after many other countries around the world including in the EU have such laws. Its only a matter of time before a company or organisation will seek to apply them. I wouldn't put too much faith in those other commentators on here, after all they both predicted that the bill would never pass through into law, and that the government would yield to all rail union demands. Yet over two years later.....

I don’t think anyone made such a statement. Simply that rail staff will fight back hard in refusing to accept an absolute sledgehammer to their terms & conditions resulting in a poorer work-life balance, whilst also compromising safety and fatigue, oh and all for a way below inflation pay increase also

Yet two years later…… .

I suppose it’s just the perspective you wish to see, and we all know what your wish is for rail staff.

 

[Bantamzen]

I don’t think anyone made such a statement. Simply that rail staff will fight back hard in refusing to accept an absolute sledgehammer to their terms & conditions resulting in a poorer work-life balance, whilst also compromising safety and fatigue, oh and all for a way below inflation pay increase also

Yet two years later…… .

Oh they did. You may not remember, but they did.

I suppose it’s just the perspective you wish to see, and we all know what your wish is for rail staff.

No, you really don't. You think its a case of either you're for the union action or you hate everyone. But that simply isn't the case, life isn't as binary as people wish it to be.

 

[Val3ntine]

Oh they did. You may not remember, but they did.


No, you really don't. You think its a case of either you're for the union action or you hate everyone. But that simply isn't the case, life isn't as binary as people wish it to be.

So I’m really confused, what is your view then? Should this deal be accepted or not lol? Because in this instance it really is either one or the other.

The union would like negotiation/ further talks, they do not have a set stone in place that it is “this % or nothing”, or “we want X and X” for example.

The government on the other hand do, they do not want negotiation or further talks, it is basically that or nothing.

So you must be either one or the other really, in this specific issue anyway.

And I feel like I already know your response, but please no more “put the vote to the members”.

Really it has been explained to you so many times why that will not happen, the membership have voted and continue to vote overwhelming to carry on the action. So a ridiculous deal won’t put put to them just for the sake of it.

 

[Jamesrob637]

CrossCountry drivers are on strike on Friday 5th April.

Thanks; I heard there was some RMT action affecting only XC, however I could be wrong.

 

[dk1]

Thanks; I heard there was some RMT action affecting only XC, however I could be wrong.

 

[Bantamzen]

So I’m really confused, what is your view then? Should this deal be accepted or not lol? Because in this instance it really is either one or the other.

The union would like negotiation/ further talks, they do not have a set stone in place that it is “this % or nothing”, or “we want X and X” for example.

The government on the other hand do, they do not want negotiation or further talks, it is basically that or nothing.

So you must be either one or the other really, in this specific issue anyway.

I'm not sure why you are confused, I have made my point dozens of times over the period of the dispute. But to clarify:

I was originally against the action in the first instance, as I was with various disputes across private and public sectors, including my own. I was against them because set against the backdrop of a post-covid slump, and cost of living increases as a result of global situations beyond our control I felt that both prolonged disputes and way above normal pay rises could be even more damaging in the long run. Frankly in my eyes it felt like the unions thought they could catch the government unware and give them a black eye, because I'm sorry to say but sometimes unions do become politically motivated. Most people on here will argue that this is not true, but I've witnessed this myself during my time as a rep for my union (of which I am still a member). As I put it at the time, I thought it was the wrong time to pick that fight.

As for the current deal on the table from RDG / DfT, ASLEF execs have made the decision to to reject it on behalf of their members, despite a caveat from RDG / DfT that for the possibility of further discussions the deal must be put to their members. This deal was offered almost a year ago and no movement has occurred since. Now regardless of what people think about said caveat, not putting the deal to their members is a blocker and the responsibility of ASLEF. Now I know, as I always have, that ASLEF have a rule that states an executive decision like this cannot then be put to their members. Personally I find this a bizarre rule, after all the union are the members, the executive and their appointed officials are there to do everything they can to get the best for their members. However they are not kings, overlords or dictators. If a possibility exists to make some forward progress, then the union should be doing this. In this case that is putting the deal to the members. We all know what the result will be, as do the government, but this would then mean the union would have done everything they could to this point. So my position is clear, the deal should be put to the members.

However it seems that this idea is abhorrent to the point of horror for some. Honestly I cannot understand for the life of me, despite some trying to "explain" it, why this is seen as a terrible thing, other than perhaps it might feel like giving in or losing ground. But it isn't, its just a vote that allows ASLEF to go back to the government and formally state that their members have rejected the deal by a large majority. Perhaps it might even open up the possibility of a counter offer similar to one that RMT brokered, that is a no-strings backdated deal that brings previous negotiations up to date, and that strike action be ended until negotiations start on future offers. That would then give it's members a decent pay-out that they can use to take the kids on holiday, or put towards a new car, or simply put into their accounts to start earning them interest, and still have a no-strings deal for the time being at least.

It is a no-brainer, a free spin of the wheel, a freebie save the cost of the actual ballot (which ASLEF will almost certainly have to do to keep the dispute going until the General Election). Yet no-one can reasonably explain why this would be a bad move, instead choosing to insult and make false accusations. I sometimes wonder if some have been taking political lessons from Donald Trump.... Just kidding...

 

[43066]

There was certainly quite a considerable body of opinion on here prior to the first strike after the legislation passed, that thought DFT would instruct its TOCs to use MSL .

There were also many voices on here, including those of us who work in the industry, who predicted they’d be utterly unworkable. It seems that group has been proved right, and that even the DfT have now realised this. I will be astonished if we see a single service run as a result of the MSLs before either the dispute is resolved, or the legislation is repealed, as Labour have committed to doing.

In any case, my intention with post #552 wasn’t to restart the debate over the merits of the MSLs, but rather to ask whether the lack of any attempt to implement them was once again industry wide?

I suppose it’s just the perspective you wish to see, and we all know what your wish is for rail staff.

Indeed.

Honestly I cannot understand for the life of me, despite some trying to "explain" it, why this is seen as a terrible thing, other than perhaps it might feel like giving in or losing ground.

It has been explained over and over again, including in post #388 by @LowLevel
why ASLEF won’t pursue your preferred “strategy”. So what is the point of endlessly repeating the same points?

 

[Bantamzen]

It has been explained over and over again, including in post #388 by @LowLevel
why ASLEF won’t pursue your preferred “strategy”. So what is the point of endlessly repeating the same points?

No it wasn't explained, it was an on opinion why ASLEF have chosen their strategy. The reason I offer an alternative is simple, the current strategy isn't working. I mean would you rather not have the possibility of the backpay and a no-strings deal to date? Honestly, I can't understand this thinking.

 

[exbrel]

Really it has been explained to you so many times why that will not happen, the membership have voted and continue to vote overwhelming to carry on the action. So a ridiculous deal won’t put put to them just for the sake of it.

i'm not in the industry now thank goodness, but from what i've seen/heard the vote was do you want your union to use further industrial action if need be, as per the law that the union must ballot members every 6 months, not do you accept the offer that's on the table...
So if they had a vote on the pay offer and it was a no, the union would have had to have another vote on action for up to a further 6 months...

 

[Goldfish62]

Judging by the number of passengers travelling on the network today, including me, I think perhaps ASLEF has picked the wrong dates...

 

[LowLevel]

No it wasn't explained, it was an on opinion why ASLEF have chosen their strategy. The reason I offer an alternative is simple, the current strategy isn't working. I mean would you rather not have the possibility of the backpay and a no-strings deal to date? Honestly, I can't understand this thinking.

You're as likely to get as much success by trapping Mark Harper in a dark alley and not letting him out again until he explains why he refuses to accept the continuing ballot results as a rejection of his offer.

Neither situation is likely to get you the answer or result you want. Neither party are breaking the deadlock.

 

[43066]

The reason I offer an alternative is simple, the current strategy isn't working.

The government’s strategy isn’t working either, yet you don’t seem remotely interested in criticising them for offering a deal they knew wouldn’t be accepted, and then refusing to talk for nearly a year.

No it wasn't explained, it was an on opinion why ASLEF have chosen their strategy.

It’s an opinion that happens to be shared by most ASLEF members (ie those whose opinions count) and their leadership. You don’t need to agree with it, or to like it, but I don’t see how you can suggest it hasn’t been explained to you when it has been made clear many, many times!

I mean would you rather not have the possibility of the backpay and a no-strings deal to date? Honestly, I can't understand this thinking.

You’re still ignoring the much larger possibility that the government would find another excuse not to settle, as we know they aren’t negotiating in good faith.

On the other hand, if we stay as we are, there’s a chance the government will change position and allow some sort of interim settlement prior to the election (they’ve just agreed a £600 per day RDW deal at Avanti, which perhaps points to a change in attitude). If not, we will wait until after the election; it really is that simple.

 

[Bantamzen]

You're as likely to get as much success by trapping Mark Harper in a dark alley and not letting him out again until he explains why he refuses to accept the continuing ballot results as a rejection of his offer.

Neither situation is likely to get you the answer or result you want. Neither party are breaking the deadlock.

Listen I'm under no illusions here, sending back a formal rejection by the members may not get any progress, although it did work for RMT. However the fact remains, no-one will ever know unless its tried. And its not a big ask, is it? So why not do it?

The government’s strategy isn’t working either, yet you don’t seem remotely interested in criticising them for offering a deal they knew wouldn’t be accepted, and then refusing to talk for nearly a year.

You say that but who has the money? ASLEF members or the government? It doesn't matter if I criticise the government's tactics, there's a simple way to move things on one step. But ASLEF, and seemingly some of it's members don't want to.

It’s an opinion that happens to be shared by most ASLEF members (ie those whose opinions count) and their leadership. You don’t need to agree with it, or to like it.

Prove it.

(Hint: You might need a ballot)

You’re still ignoring the much larger possibility that the government would find another excuse not to settle, as we know they aren’t negotiating in good faith.

You don't actually know that, and refuse the possibility of finding out.

On the other hand, if we stay as we are, there’s a chance the government will change position and allow some sort of interim settlement prior to the election. If not, we will wait until after the election; it really is that simple.

Oh come on, give yer head a wobble. You've been at this for over 2 years, do you really think the government, in the run-up to an election, are going to suddenly go "do you know what, we'd better give ASLEF exactly what they want"? Honestly sometimes the mind boggles.

Oh, and as for a Labour government, well they haven't exactly been getting behind you lot have they. Labour have stayed noticeably distant from industrial disputes, can you think of any reason why they might be doing this? (Hint, gaining Tory voters). And besides who knows? Maybe the Tories will simply pull the offer at the last minute, leaving Labour to pick up the pieces and a union demanding several years worth of backpay for nearly 25K ASLEF members. That's going to cost a pretty penny, I'm sure an incoming Labour Chancellor will be straight on writing that cheque, whilst the editor of the Daily Wail will be going into organismic fits of excitement dreaming up the next headlines about train drivers to fill the troughs of their readership...

 

[Val3ntine]

So my position is clear, the deal should be put to the members

Right, so give in to whatever the government demands, no matter how draconian or extreme just because they said so. And then the same again once the deal is obviously overwhelmingly rejected, just do as they say and do not stick up for yourself.
Thank you for confirming what I already suspected would be your response.

The reason I offer an alternative is simple, the current strategy isn't working.

But, it is. There have been no drastic changes to railway worker’s terms and conditions, they have maintained their work/life balance for the time being. They know they are in this for the long haul and are prepared to stay strong and resist such an attack from the government. It sounds like the above is working to me.

 

[dk1]

Is it me or is this thread (and several before it) in repeat mode? Going round in so many circles I'm getting travel sick again

 

[43066]

Prove it.

(Hint: You might need a ballot)

No need - I’m a ASLEF member, I know scores of other ASLEF members, and I’ve personally asked Mick Whelan about the strategy. I’m not sure why you think you know better, as someone who doesn’t even work in the industry, or why you think you’re owed proof of anything. The position has been made clear, you don’t need to like it!

I'm sure an incoming Labour Chancellor will be straight on writing that cheque, whilst the editor of the Daily Wail will be going into organismic fits of excitement dreaming up the next headlines about train drivers to fill the troughs of their readership...

Same old same old. I’m not going to engage any more because your agenda is obvious to everybody.

 

[muz379]

Its only a matter of time before a company or organisation will seek to apply them

A TOC did try to use them , was met with an escalation of industrial action and did the sensible thing and climbed back down from their proposal to use them .

after many other countries around the world including in the EU have such laws.

Of course as with everything the devil is in the detail , and whilst there are some EU countries that have MSL laws their laws have some fundamental differences with the MSL laws introduced by this government . Some of those differences are in my view the reason the legislation in its current form would never work in the UK for the rail industry at least .

 

[Val3ntine]

Is it me or is this thread (and several before it) in repeat mode? Going round in so many circles I'm getting travel sick again

I try to stay silent I really do, but it blows my mind how much it affects some people that there are actually workers who stand up for themselves and refuse to race to the bottom.

 

[dk1]

I try to stay silent I really do, but it blows my mind how much it affects some people that there actually exists workers who stand up for themselves and refuse to race to the bottom.

Just let them go over your head mate. Most of us do.

 

[Bantamzen]

Right, so give in to whatever the government demands, no matter how draconian or extreme just because they said so. And then the same again once the deal is obviously overwhelmingly rejected, just do as they say and do not stick up for yourself.
Thank you for confirming what I already suspected would be your response.

Having a ballot is neither giving in to government demands nor draconian. In fact putting an offer to the members is pretty standard across the TU movement. ASLEF for whatever reason don't want you to have a say in the union you subscribe to. Just think about that for a second.

But, it is. There have been no drastic changes to railway worker’s terms and conditions, they have maintained their work/life balance for the time being. They know they are in this for the long haul and are prepared to stay strong and resist such an attack from the government. It sounds like the above is working to me.

And you haven't had a pay rise....

<taps nose>

No need - I’m a ASLEF member, I know scores of other ASLEF members, and I’ve personally asked Mick Whelan about the strategy. I’m not sure why you think you know better, as someone who doesn’t even work in the industry, or why you think you’re owed proof of anything. The position has been made clear, you don’t need to like it!

So remind me. Is the strategy working, or not? Is the government begging Mick for forgiveness? Have the ASLEF members had their pay rise?

Same old same old. I’m not going to engage any more because your agenda is obvious to everybody.

Another one that thinks everything is binary. I don't have an agenda, just voicing my opinions. Feel free to unfollow if you don't like them..

I try to stay silent I really do, but it blows my mind how much it affects some people that there are actually workers who stand up for themselves and refuse to race to the bottom.

All I am arguing is that ASLEF have the ballot. Seriously what is wrong with that?

 

[Ashfordian6]

Is it me or is this thread (and several before it) in repeat mode? Going round in so many circles I'm getting travel sick again

A certain someone is trying to get the thread closed. I've found the Ignore function and it makes the thread much more readable and pleasant

 

[Bantamzen]

A certain someone is trying to get the thread closed. I've found the Ignore function and it makes the thread much more readable and pleasant

For the benefit of those not ignoring my posts, this is a false accusation. It seems that alternative opinions are not welcome with some.

 

[Krokodil]

Its only a matter of time before a company or organisation will seek to apply them

LNER did try (probably on the orders of its political masters). Exactly as everyone predicted the response from ASLEF was to turn a single day of action into a week's worth - after all if 80% of staff are needed to run 40% of services then you can disrupt an entire week with each member only losing one day's pay.

LNER backed down. You won't see any operators try that again in a hurry.

 

[Val3ntine]

Having a ballot is neither giving in to government demands nor draconian. In fact putting an offer to the members is pretty standard across the TU movement. ASLEF for whatever reason don't want you to have a say in the union you subscribe to. Just think about that for a second.

So many incorrect facts here.

- RMT only put the offer to their members when it became acceptable, eg removing the red lines of the outrageous changes to terms and conditions.

- ASLEF put to vote for members of my TOC a NO STRINGS pay deal which has been accepted by its members. This TOC is not under control of the dft. Think about that for a second?

And you haven't had a pay rise....

Okay. Well I have actually. But yes the others that are continuing to fight, no they have not. But, they are in it for the long haul and have proven they will not wane.

You keep saying the strategy is not working, maybe stop looking at it as a strategy then, and simply a resistance to a worse work/life balance. Does that help you understand a bit more at all?

 

[Bantamzen]

So many incorrect facts here.

- RMT only put the offer to their members when it became acceptable, eg removing the red lines of the outrageous changes to terms and conditions.

- ASLEF put to vote for members of my TOC a NO STRINGS pay deal which has been accepted by its members. This TOC is not under control of the dft. Think about that for a second?

But how did RMT arrive at that position? By doing nothing and blaming everyone else? ASLEF execs may not like the caveat of having to put the offer to the membership, but its within their capability to do it.

And you do know that unions put offers to their members that they do not recommend? What happens is they put the ballot out, along with an explanation as to why they recommend members to reject it. Then members vote as they see fit, if they agree with the union's recommendation they reject it. Job done. Surely in this case, ASLEF have nothing to lose right? Or who knows, maybe the top table know something they don't like?

Okay. Well I have actually. But yes the others that are continuing to fight, no they have not. But, they are in it for the long haul and have proven they will not wane.

You keep saying the strategy is not working, maybe stop looking at it as a strategy then, and simply a resistance to a worse work/life balance. Does that help you understand a bit more at all?

No the dispute is about the work life balance, the current impasse preventing further talks is a union executive decision.

 

[Moonshot]

At my depot, any offer with strings attached would simply get rejected by members

 

[Bantamzen]

At my depot, any offer with strings attached would simply get rejected by members

I'm sure that would be the case at all depots. But it would be a formal rejection from the members, which is what is being asked for.

 

[Val3ntine]

But how did RMT arrive at that position?

IIRC, the network rail part of the dispute got resolved suddenly out of nowhere when the government decided signallers are causing too much disruption so took them out of the equation. A while after that, they did the same with the rest of the RMT shortly after their embarrassment of the failed ticket office closure consultation. Or maybe they just decided to simply isolate ASLEF in the railway dispute; who knows.

Hope that answers your question?