• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 387 to GN

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
44
Travelled on 0900 HIT-KGX this morning. Noticed the platform screens were showing "1st Class in coach 4" for some services which I assumed to be 387 but nothing stated for my train so I thought "365". However, manual announcement from station staff saying "This is a new train and so first class could be at front, middle or rear". Not particularly helpful!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Travelled on 0900 HIT-KGX this morning. Noticed the platform screens were showing "1st Class in coach 4" for some services which I assumed to be 387 but nothing stated for my train so I thought "365". However, manual announcement from station staff saying "This is a new train and so first class could be at front, middle or rear". Not particularly helpful!

Yes I noticed it yesterday, and, yes, it was also getting it at the wrong end for some class 387 services. Well done GTR yet again!

Meanwhile, the Thameslink core was up the wall yesterday - a foretaste of things to come for GN commuters?
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,062
Location
UK
At least you know it's a 387 though!

Guess we know the plan is to have first at the country end, but I had sort of expected it would show the actual location instead of making an assumption as would appear to be the case.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
At least you know it's a 387 though!

Guess we know the plan is to have first at the country end, but I had sort of expected it would show the actual location instead of making an assumption as would appear to be the case.

Yes I've always suspected the idea was to be the country end, simply because that's always seemed to be the way the majority of units face.

Assuming first has to be where it is, for whatever stupid bad reason, the least worst is to have it at the London end, for a whole variety of reasons. Why on earth would an operator want their premium passengers to have to walk the furthest and be potentially last off the platform upon arrival at King's Cross? Plus there are all the other issues, like having an isolated section of standard class furthest from the stops at King's Cross. Simple fact is GTR don't know what they're doing on this, and seemingly neither did Bombardier when they designed the train - if that's true.

I've so reached the point where I'm now increasingly using my car in preference to train M-F as well as weekends, to avoid all this stupidity.
 
Last edited:

Skimble19

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2009
Messages
1,489
Location
London
It was also showing for 365s at some stations yesterday, with 8 cars showing correctly as having First in coaches 1,4,5 and 8.

387s appeared to be hit and miss as to whether they were the right way round or not, plus a couple turned out to be 317s...!
 

philjo

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2009
Messages
2,892
the Screens at WGC and Stevenage for the 16:53 from Kings cross to Cambridge service last night were saying 1st class at the rear. it is operated by a 4 coach 387 - which turned up with 1st class in the front coach!
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
the Screens at WGC and Stevenage for the 16:53 from Kings cross to Cambridge service last night were saying 1st class at the rear. it is operated by a 4 coach 387 - which turned up with 1st class in the front coach!

This is what we expect from the schoolboy TOC. This sort of things quite simply is a schoolboy error. Anyone with an ounce of experience could have told them this is what would happen. This must be frustrating the hell out of passengers, both first and standard class. There's obviously been complaints, hence the RPI presence and the dodgy CIS information.

What hope is there for this TOC running 24tph when they can't even get the very basics right?
 

Mordac

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2016
Messages
2,309
Location
Birmingham
This is what we expect from the schoolboy TOC. This sort of things quite simply is a schoolboy error. Anyone with an ounce of experience could have told them this is what would happen. This must be frustrating the hell out of passengers, both first and standard class. There's obviously been complaints, hence the RPI presence and the dodgy CIS information.

What hope is there for this TOC running 24tph when they can't even get the very basics right?

That's not the only thing frustrating people around here. <(
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
That's not the only thing frustrating people around here. <(

Pay a visit to some of the busier stations on the GN route particularly in the morning peak, and you'll see the issues this is causing. First class passengers quite simply don't know where to stand, whilst standard class passengers have the issue that there are two doorways out of every eight (e.g. one quarter of the train) they need to avoid if they're going to have a chance of getting the seat they want, or perhaps getting a seat at all. Because the fleet is currently divided in which way units face, there's no certainty from one day to the next. As an aside, this is also bad for those who need to utilise the accessible space on the train - as the position of this varies too.

As has been emphasised before, the 387s already have considerably reduced seating compared to the trains they have replaced, it then makes things even worse to have introduced a boarding lottery.

Meanwhile, despite avoiding them as far as possible, I've now experienced two class 387 failures since their introduction. In 20 years of 365s I've only experienced two failures, both of which were rectified within a 10 minutes. The 387 should be a relatively proven design, although maybe crews aren't fully familiar with them yet.
 
Last edited:

Mordac

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2016
Messages
2,309
Location
Birmingham
Pay a visit to some of the busier stations on the GN route particularly in the morning peak, and you'll see the issues this is causing. First class passengers quite simply don't know where to stand, whilst standard class passengers have the issue that there are two doorways out of every eight (e.g. one quarter of the train) they need to avoid if they're going to have a chance of getting the seat they want, or perhaps getting a seat at all. Because the fleet is currently divided in which way units face, there's no certainty from one day to the next. As an aside, this is also bad for those who need to utilise the accessible space on the train - as the position of this varies too.

As has been emphasised before, the 387s already have considerably reduced seating compared to the trains they have replaced, it then makes things even worse to have introduced a boarding lottery.

Meanwhile, despite avoiding them as far as possible, I've now experienced two class 387 failures since their introduction. In 20 years of 365s I've only experienced two failures, both of which were rectified within a 10 minutes. The 387 should be a relatively proven design, although maybe crews aren't fully familiar with them yet.
I don't need to pay a visit there when you've gone on about it here for months. It's just like being there. Have you considered complaining to GTR instead of posting the same rant every week on an internet forum? That might get you further. It gets a bit grating on those of us who are following this thread to learn news about the introduction of these units.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
I don't need to pay a visit there when you've gone on about it here for months. It's just like being there. Have you considered complaining to GTR instead of posting the same rant every week on an internet forum? That might get you further. It gets a bit grating on those of us who are following this thread to learn news about the introduction of these units.

The reality of these units entering service is that they're a nuisance to passengers. The reduction in capacity is unfortunate but one can understand how the situation has arisen. Some of the other aspects are less understandable. Unfortunately, this is the news about the introduction of these units. Everyone would rather this wasn't the case, not least the railway's users. Meanwhile, yes, I have complained to GTR, and elsewhere.
 

Minstral25

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2009
Messages
1,776
Location
Surrey
As has been emphasised before, the 387s already have considerably reduced seating compared to the trains they have replaced, it then makes things even worse to have introduced a boarding lottery.

.

Aren't they currently used on services that will be 700's in 2018. So is it a case of suffering for a short period and also probably why GTR aren't bothering to create a system to allow for first class on temporary trains?

Down south we've lost our 387's and got 700's - we would take our 387's back if the opportunity was available. At least you can sit in the seats if you get one.
 

Hadders

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
27 Apr 2011
Messages
13,219
Have you considered complaining to GTR...

We're talking about GTR who vie with Connex as the most incompetent train operator ever. All you ever get from GTR in response to a complaint is a cut and paste job which does nothing to answer the complaint.

Down south we've lost our 387's and got 700's - we would take our 387's back if the opportunity was available. At least you can sit in the seats if you get one.

We're getting 700s later this year when the 387s move to the Cambridge Cruiser services so we'll share your pain.

I'd much rather keep the 365s
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Aren't they currently used on services that will be 700's in 2018. So is it a case of suffering for a short period and also probably why GTR aren't bothering to create a system to allow for first class on temporary trains?

Down south we've lost our 387's and got 700's - we would take our 387's back if the opportunity was available. At least you can sit in the seats if you get one.

Yes you're right many of the services will change to 700s, some perhaps reverting to 365s in the interim for a short time. Of course in the slightly more distant future the entire timetable will be recast.

The first class issue will still arise on the Cambridge fast services, especially those which call at Letchworth and Royston. And there's still the capacity/seating issue, especially on services which haven't been or won't be lengthened. It has been suggested the trains will be turned at some point so all face the same way. Unfortunately this really *needed* to have happened when the units came over, it's caused a lot of problems, and it's quite obvious there have been complaints- GTR haven't put revenue in first or altered the CIS just because they fancied doing it.

Unfortunately this is the story of these trains arriving on GN. They have created hassle, much of which should have been avoidable. Went home on one tonight- once again the reduction in seating is very conspicuous on a medium-busy service, each of the two units on the train was facing a different way, and someone could be heard commenting on the rough ride and how "this rocking about is doing my back in". Likewise, travel at the weekend or even weekday midday and you'll find a 4-car 387 may have all seats taken as far out as Welwyn. Again this is the story of 387s arriving on GN. It may make painful reading, but unfortunately this is the reality if you're a GN user at the moment. Hopefully things will improve, but with GTR's track record so far I'm not optimistic.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,062
Location
UK
Coming out of the Barnet tunnel (London bound) a few days ago, the train jolted so much that a few people actually screamed, presumably thinking we'd derailed.

It was quite a little amusing when they played things down after realising we hadn't, but if you look around it's not hard to see people looking visibly uncomfortable at the times the train bounces around.

I'm now used to it, but the jolting does always make you feel uneasy in the worst places.

Why are modern Electrostars so bad for this? I recall 377s in Southern land being just as bad years ago, so do we just accept it is par for the course on this train design?
 
Last edited:

AS43

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2017
Messages
33
Why are modern Electrostars so bad for this? I recall 377s in Southern land being just as bad years ago, so do we just accept it is par for the course on this train design?

379s are also susceptible to this - Broxbourne and Stansted South Junctions can cause disturbing lurches (especially the former, if travelling at linespeed). Oh, and to/from Bethnal Green on the subs... despite only going at 30mph (currently 20 on the up road due to a TSR), the curve is tight enough to cause an uncomfortable ride. Naturally, 317s don't have the same issues!
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,062
Location
UK
I wonder how the 700s will be? 365s could be a bit bouncy (and squeaky) but rarely lurched around, which is quite unsettling.

And the older trains seem to be just fine. Maybe the extra seat padding helps soften the movement!
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,776
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
I wonder how the 700s will be? 365s could be a bit bouncy (and squeaky) but rarely lurched around, which is quite unsettling.

And the older trains seem to be just fine. Maybe the extra seat padding helps soften the movement!

It seems to be an Electrostar thing, the older types do it too, in some cases quite badly on the Southern Region track which has always been rough in places. I think you're right that the softer seats do absorb things a little, plus the armrests are less intrusive.

Yesterday I had the honour of riding up on a 317. I chose to sit in the motor car, which historically have been known for rough riding, yet it was still massively better than a 387. Older trains tended to be quite rough on jointed track, the sideways movements on Elwctrostars are something quite different. The 365 rides like an absolute dream by comparison.
 

43074

Established Member
Joined
10 Oct 2012
Messages
2,017
Coming out of the Barnet tunnel (London bound) a few days ago, the train jolted so much that a few people actually screamed, presumably thinking we'd derailed.

It was quite a little amusing when they played things down after realising we hadn't, but if you look around it's not hard to see people looking visibly uncomfortable at the times the train bounces around.

I'm now used to it, but the jolting does always make you feel uneasy in the worst places.

I'm wondering whether blaming the jolting on the 387s is completely fair, I travelled down to London on a Mk4 set yesterday and there was noticeable jolting on the Southern ECML in particular - the Mk4s have always been a bit rough riding, and that's what I assumed it was - but travelling on a HST back I had what was possibly the roughest ride in a Mk3 coach I have ever had, which leads me to think it's the track rather than the trains.
 

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,655
electrostars have never had a good ride they bounce over level crossings or lurch between gatwick and earlswood on the slows especially

by the way the southern ones will need a refresh again before too long some are looking quite tired again thanks to their intensive work
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
379s are also susceptible to this - Broxbourne and Stansted South Junctions can cause disturbing lurches (especially the former, if travelling at linespeed). Oh, and to/from Bethnal Green on the subs... despite only going at 30mph (currently 20 on the up road due to a TSR), the curve is tight enough to cause an uncomfortable ride. Naturally, 317s don't have the same issues!

I make sure I have hold of my coffee flask for Broxbourne Jn
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
I'm wondering whether blaming the jolting on the 387s is completely fair, I travelled down to London on a Mk4 set yesterday and there was noticeable jolting on the Southern ECML in particular - the Mk4s have always been a bit rough riding, and that's what I assumed it was - but travelling on a HST back I had what was possibly the roughest ride in a Mk3 coach I have ever had, which leads me to think it's the track rather than the trains.

Have to admit, I sometimes struggle to use my laptop on a fast ECML run on a 365 as it causes my screen to wobble so much.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
Catching a Cambridge Express today, sort of expected a 387... got a 317x2.
 

Mordac

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2016
Messages
2,309
Location
Birmingham
Weren't those 317s supposed to have been with GA in January? Beginning to think they aren't going anywhere...
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Weren't those 317s supposed to have been with GA in January? Beginning to think they aren't going anywhere...

Theres still at least one pair out and about - was on one of the Royston peak extras one morning this week
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
3,704
Coming out of the Barnet tunnel (London bound) a few days ago, the train jolted so much that a few people actually screamed, presumably thinking we'd derailed.

It was quite a little amusing when they played things down after realising we hadn't, but if you look around it's not hard to see people looking visibly uncomfortable at the times the train bounces around.

I'm now used to it, but the jolting does always make you feel uneasy in the worst places.

Why are modern Electrostars so bad for this? I recall 377s in Southern land being just as bad years ago, so do we just accept it is par for the course on this train design?

yep they have bad sideways movement. Im sure adjustments can be made to improve them....you can see on the outside of the units by the bogies that they have horizontal dampers. I wonder if these wear out quite quickly.

As mentioned before, maybe more comfortable seating with springs (isnt that a novel idea) would make for a more relaxing journey
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top